[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

Unsupported swings are the worst! Shoulder blades with nice rounded frame provide support and distance. Kat- can you clarify when you say the swing is like in Jeff’s third picture, does that mean the other arms are on shoulder blades like in the photo? Or are the other arms “point”? On Mar 13, 2024, at 5:06 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers < contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote:  oh! wonderful!! Here is the modified-hold swing I've been talking about, on Jeff K's page - third photo down!! labelled under the photo as *arm-hold ballroom swing* https://www.jefftk.com/p/contra-avoiding-sore-arms Thanks Jeff!! Now I'm going to comment to two things again - Julian's comment and Jeff's comment (both included below). Julian's question: "why [does] a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds?" For me personally, what I find more "intimate" about the ballroom hold (and a lot of the other holds), is that it puts me very close to the other person - closer than in any other figure - and also more "locked in" - since both hands of both people are involved in maintaining the hold. And what I noticed in my own body, when in recent dances I've been doing the elbow-hold ballroom position with most neighbours and a new man suddenly grabs my waist and pulls me into conventional ballroom hold - is that I don't really like his hand there on my back. I feel a bit trapped - like if I wanted to back away a little, I can't. (I acknowledge I am speaking in gendered terms here, but I feel it is relevant because for me, this feeling of being excessively close to someone only seems to come up when I'm dancing with some men. I've never to my recollection had a woman pull me "too close for comfort"). I'll be curious to hear how others answer this question. Regarding hand placement- I definitely agree with Jeff's page about the importance of symmetry - prior to our elbow-hold swing, we always taught the ballroom swing where both parties put their hands on the other person's shoulder blade- with the shorter person's arm going under the taller person's arm. I like the symmetry of it and fully agree that both parties should be responsible for supporting the other. And Jeff wrote: "In general, I would be excited to see common positioning move ... to where both people are using both of their arms to hold the couple together, sharing the weight more evenly" And that's one reason I love this elbow-hold (or "arm-hold" as Jeff calls it) - I've found this hold gives me an even better connection to my dancing patner than the shoulder-blade hold. It doesn't feel easy to cup one's hand in an effective way around someone else's back - and I agree it asks a lot of the wrist. I find it much easier to cup my hand around the back of someone's elbow - it is perfectly hand-sized :) . Kat K ----- Julian wrote: I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I wouldn't say the default) Is it something else? Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? In dance, Julian Blechner He/him Western Mass Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:46 PM "I firmly believe that the best place for the lady's left hand is resting on the man's upper arm in a relaxed manner." The biggest downside of this approach is that in a conventional ballroom hold it puts all the effort of holding the couple together on the right wrist of the Lark/Gent. I have relatively weak wrists, and dancing as the Lark with people who rest their left hand on the Lark's upper arm is somewhere between tiring and painful. In general, I would be excited to see common positioning move in the opposite direction, to where both people are using both of their arms to hold the couple together, sharing the weight more evenly: https://www.jefftk.com/p/contra-avoiding-sore-arms Jeff _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net Becky Liddle via Contra Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; Wednesday, March 13, 2024 11:16 AM In the discussion about some men being uncomfortable doing ballroom dance hold swing with other men, the modified ballroom hold (hand above elbow of partner instead of on robin’s shoulder) was mentioned. In this discussion, much has been said about men who don’t want to do ballroom hold with other men, but what nobody has mentioned yet is the scads of women (both straight and queer) who have long been uncomfortable dancing ballroom swing with men (or often just with particular men). *I am intrigued by this modified ballroom swing idea because it might solve many problems at once*. I have two simultaneous (and conflicting) emotional responses to men uncomfortable swinging with other men: The ungenerous one is: "As a lesbian I had to get over my discomfort swinging with you in order to participate in the joy of contra. If I can do it, you can do it." But more importantly (and more generously): *We’d like everyone to be as comfortable at contra dances as is reasonably feasible*. To that end, I am very interested in this idea of the modified ballroom hold. It might solve MANY different problems. Here are a few that come to mind: 1. The enforced intimacy problem: this is not just a problem with straight men being uncomfortable swinging with other men. There is a lot of forced intimacy in the ballroom hold. Maybe that intimacy is not the best thing to force on *anyone*?. Modified ballroom swing would help with the problem of not wanting enforced closeness/intimacy with others for all kinds of reasons: keeping distance from the lecherous dancer who uses the ballroom hold as an excuse for unwanted intimacy; but also simply to provide a bit of space for folks who simply aren’t comfortable being that close to ANYBODY. I recently struck up a conversation with a new dancer who was leaving early (because we need to know why we’re losing potential dancers) and she said “It just feels too intimate.” She didn’t say too intimate swinging with men or with women. Just “too intimate” and I got the definite feeling that it was the enforced close hold (with *everyone*) that was difficult for her. I wonder if we would have lost her if we used the modified ballroom swing (hand above elbow instead of on shoulder). 2. There are other difficulties with the ballroom hold: sometimes there is simply not enough room: short arms or large girth can make it difficult to reach the back of the shoulder of the other partner at times, and this leaves the Lark in the uncomfortable/dangerous position of “where do I put my hand now?” While trying to avoid the “accidental side boob graze” issue. 3. Speaking of which, is nobody else out there having trouble with this “side boob graze” problem with the ballroom hold? I’m a lesbian who dances the Lark role because of knee and hip issues. At least once/evening when moving into or out of the ballroom hold I accidentally graze the side of my partner’s breast. If I were straight I wouldn’t worry about it. But as a lesbian my mind always leaps to “what if she thinks I did that on purpose?” *Do straight men not also have this problem?? Why is nobody talking about this??* If the robin is female-presenting, the back of the robin’s shoulder is dangerously close to the side of her breast. Which means (a) it’s easy for a sleaze to cop a feel and pass it off as an accident, and (b) it’s easy for a lesbian or straight man to truly accidentally graze and then worry that they’ll be *perceived *as a sleaze. The elbow hold would solve both of these problems. 4. The robin clamping down their arm problem: Larks, have you ever danced with a robin who clamps down their arm on your wrist during the swing? Again, elbow hold would solve this. 5. The problem of robins dancing backwards when swinging: I have never danced the modified ballroom hold, but I’d like to know from folks who do: does it solve the problem of many robins feeling like they need to dance backwards when swinging? On the occasions when I do dance robin (usually because I’m pairing with a newbie who is dancing lark) I often find myself skittering backwards in the swing, instead of both of us walking/dancing forward. I’m not experienced enough as a robin to fully understand this phenomenon, but I think it has to do with the closeness and rigidity of some Larks’ hold in the ballroom swing. Question for folks who have used the elbow hold: does this hold solve this problem and allow the robin to dance forward instead of backward in the swing? I am particularly interested in this issue because I am about to move from Toronto (where the ballroom hold is firmly established) to an island off the coast of Vancouver (Bowen Island) where, if I want to continue to dance, I will have to start my own contra dance. This conversation has made me wonder whether I should start that group with the modified ballroom hold to solve many of these problems. *I’d love to hear from others who have used this swing about the pros and cons *(if any) and any other advice you’d have for someone starting a dance using this swing hold. Thanks!! Becky Liddle (Note: my email is changing from beckyliddle(a)bell.net to becky.liddle(a)icloud.com ) _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net