[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

Hi Joe, You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a complaint about it. That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is fairly petite. I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) In dance, Julian Blechner On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington &lt;contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, but > an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years now, > where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on the > lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I know > at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie > workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to provide > equal support in the swing. > > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are not > grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this > without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent > backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the > right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much > eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by > pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially > refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, > so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. > > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major > support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff > described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top > are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their > lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold > (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. > > --jh-- > > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < > juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > >> JJ, >> >> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry of >> a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. >> >> Joe, >> >> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having elbows >> occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or picture). >> That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall topic, that >> everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums is our goal >> for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold handholds as >> such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned callers - >> can anticipate every need or difference. >> >> In dance, >> Julian Blechner >> >> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ &lt;jcgj95(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the >>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on >>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left >>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the >>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell >>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over >>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>> >>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles >>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the >>> traditional ballroom figure. >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role >>>> actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." >>>> >>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially >>>> doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I >>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I >>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way >>>>> that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I >>>>> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs >>>>> (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if >>>>> one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if >>>>> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than >>>>> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >>>>> >>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role >>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), >>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is >>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around >>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, >>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around >>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never >>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm >>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a >>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first >>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we >>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an >>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>> change... >>>>> >>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the >>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and >>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though >>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>> >>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position >>>>> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same >>>>> place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually >>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, >>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain >>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my >>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt >>>>> the lark. >>>>> >>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire >>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they >>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more >>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only >>>>> pull forward. >>>>> >>>>> --jh-- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about >>>>>> this email thread and observations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Short and simple: >>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, >>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we >>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided >>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. >>>>>> >>>>>> In dance, >>>>>> -Julian Blechner >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers < >>>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above >>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think >>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to >>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s >>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is >>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things >>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm >>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if >>>>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers >>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - >>>>>>> for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though >>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on >>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: >>>>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting >>>>>>> with (visual at https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… >>>>>>> ) >>>>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> >>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that >>>>>>> are holding just above the elbow. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his >>>>>>> left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use >>>>>>> in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right >>>>>>> hand.) >>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>>>> Starts at 3:18. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the >>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the Lark's arm? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of the two dancing partners? >>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks all! >>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>>>> Hi Kat, >>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. >>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than >>>>>>> further apart. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras >>>>>>> and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra >>>>>>> dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it >>>>>>> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough >>>>>>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt >>>>>>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it >>>>>>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just >>>>>>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! >>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own >>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and >>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the >>>>>>> spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and >>>>>>> weight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, >>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I >>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford >>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high >>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow >>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own >>>>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will >>>>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to >>>>>>> do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some >>>>>>> getting used to. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh >>>>>>> Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - >>>>>>> you could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Happy dancing, >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & >>>>>>> 07802 940 574 >>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and >>>>>>> lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a >>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with >>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>>>>>> yes to one person. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra >>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most >>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which >>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would >>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s >>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come >>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is >>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes >>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make >>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>>>> difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner >>>>>>> &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; &lt;juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; >>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our >>>>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to >>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it something else? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution >>>>>>> to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>>>> He/him >>>>>>> Western Mass >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> >>>