[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good example. In this case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands. I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers of mass two feet apart, but I would want to measure it before making this an argument, hence going with your numbers. On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman &lt;jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around > your back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy > the ride. While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12 > beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back I'd > need to provide both enough force for our combined weight? > > (I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this > total force must be covered by the couple somehow) > > Jeff > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey &lt;clahey(a)clahey.net&gt; wrote: > >> I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've >> calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm >> exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa. >> Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of >> two error. >> >> I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread >> more. >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >> >>> I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to >>> counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it >>> shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I >>> don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and >>> your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a >>> bit of physics. >>> >>> If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats, >>> which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh >>> 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some math: >>> >>> r = 1ft >>> m = 300lb >>> ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz >>> >>> v = ω2πr >>> = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft >>> = 4.7 ft/s >>> >>> F = mv^2/r >>> = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft >>> = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2 >>> = 6662lbm * ft / s^2 >>> >>> 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2 >>> 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft >>> >>> F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2 >>> = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf >>> = 207lbf >>> >>> This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If >>> you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a >>> significant 64lb. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 >>> * weight * 1/32.2 >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman &lt;jeff.t.kaufman(a)gmail.com&gt; >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording >>>> studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost >>>> all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, >>>> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' though >>>> as illustrated above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at >>>> 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they >>>> each have their right hand around the other's waist, with their left hands >>>> joined low in the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's possible >>>> there were other couples that did other holds at some point? >>>> >>>> Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q >>>> . I only see ballroom holds. >>>> >>>> Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q . Outdoor demo >>>> performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the way >>>> on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they continue doing >>>> in later iterations of the dance). >>>> >>>> Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two >>>> ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the >>>> elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and >>>> one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though >>>> note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see >>>> three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's forearms. >>>> Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel >>>> the room shake through to the camera! >>>> >>>> Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom >>>> holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of >>>> the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look >>>> comfortable to me!) >>>> >>>> Here's 1976 in Bloomington: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w . Looks like a >>>> performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer hands are joined >>>> as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's waist, and the >>>> lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right arm. Then >>>> there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands joined low >>>> between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc. >>>> >>>> Here's 1967 somewhere in New England: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at >>>> 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the >>>> background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold >>>> with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold where >>>> the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are >>>> both over the tops of the gent's shoulders. >>>> >>>> Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert &lt;steinr(a)msu.edu&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same variety >>>>> of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were >>>>> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's a >>>>> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each >>>>> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the >>>>> timestamp. I only counted each couple once: >>>>> > >>>>> > Cambridge MA, 1990: >>>>> https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC >>>>> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind >>>>> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm >>>>> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's >>>>> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back >>>>> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand >>>>> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back >>>>> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady >>>>> above gent >>>>> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on >>>>> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand >>>>> on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm >>>>> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left hand >>>>> behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back >>>>> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>> > >>>>> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as >>>>> the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of >>>>> variation. >>>>> > >>>>> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were too >>>>> many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try? >>>>> > >>>>> > Jeff >>>>> > >>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > Responding to various points. >>>>> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional >>>>> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really >>>>> about?) >>>>> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly >>>>> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. >>>>> > >>>>> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking >>>>> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance and >>>>> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry Jennings. >>>>> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books >>>>> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different >>>>> swing holds, where: >>>>> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the >>>>> back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the >>>>> cover which he points out in the description is what to follow) >>>>> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up >>>>> supporting the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right upper >>>>> arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a lady's >>>>> hands >>>>> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm >>>>> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) >>>>> > >>>>> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing >>>>> position, and holds described by both did include women holding men in ways >>>>> that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that their >>>>> hand is "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. >>>>> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to >>>>> that after I touch on some specific points: >>>>> > >>>>> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the >>>>> Leftie’s supporting right hand." >>>>> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing >>>>> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely experienced >>>>> people who lean back. >>>>> > >>>>> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together >>>>> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." >>>>> > I don't think this is accurate. >>>>> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't >>>>> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size >>>>> differences. There's always exceptions, sure. >>>>> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing shoulderblades. >>>>> Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so there's less >>>>> support that's needed to be given. >>>>> > >>>>> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re >>>>> going to be on top of me." >>>>> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the >>>>> "middle" of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in >>>>> the middle is partially off the shoulderblade. >>>>> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand >>>>> often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade. >>>>> > >>>>> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the >>>>> arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting >>>>> in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." >>>>> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on >>>>> this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't a >>>>> thing I've really experienced or heard discussed. >>>>> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people just >>>>> ... do it? >>>>> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a bit >>>>> of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm comes >>>>> in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their right >>>>> arm before I try and wrap my right arm around. >>>>> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good connection >>>>> on a star promenade. >>>>> > >>>>> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left >>>>> arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, >>>>> anyway. >>>>> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of >>>>> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, and >>>>> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone unnoticed. >>>>> > >>>>> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work as >>>>> wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. >>>>> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >>>>> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >>>>> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >>>>> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >>>>> > Some men dance with men, some women with women. >>>>> > Etc. >>>>> > >>>>> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing work >>>>> for both people" as a universal and generic skill. >>>>> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than it >>>>> may seem! >>>>> > >>>>> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects >>>>> of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to >>>>> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium >>>>> that works for both people. >>>>> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my shoulderblade, >>>>> that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end swing speed. >>>>> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can >>>>> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, >>>>> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc. >>>>> > >>>>> > In dance, >>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein &lt;nschlein(a)gmail.com&gt; >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > Hi Julian, >>>>> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other >>>>> persons back, I agree with Joe. >>>>> > >>>>> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things. >>>>> > >>>>> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the >>>>> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and long >>>>> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to be on >>>>> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not OK >>>>> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. >>>>> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one wants >>>>> their hand on my back.) >>>>> > >>>>> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms >>>>> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting in >>>>> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a >>>>> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a shortening >>>>> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby >>>>> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also puts >>>>> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a >>>>> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and >>>>> potentially harmful. >>>>> > >>>>> > Neal Schlein >>>>> > Librarian, MSLIS >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > Hi Joe, >>>>> > >>>>> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how >>>>> I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a >>>>> complaint about it. >>>>> > >>>>> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager >>>>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." >>>>> > >>>>> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting >>>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, >>>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just >>>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety >>>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) >>>>> > >>>>> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on >>>>> the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when >>>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on >>>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is >>>>> fairly petite. >>>>> > >>>>> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I >>>>> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient >>>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. >>>>> > >>>>> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing >>>>> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? >>>>> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what >>>>> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand >>>>> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) >>>>> > >>>>> > In dance, >>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington < >>>>> contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the >>>>> lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of >>>>> years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same >>>>> location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's >>>>> back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their >>>>> newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to >>>>> provide equal support in the swing. >>>>> > >>>>> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers >>>>> are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do >>>>> this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent >>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the >>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much >>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by >>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially >>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, >>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. >>>>> > >>>>> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major >>>>> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff >>>>> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top >>>>> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their >>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold >>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the shoulder. >>>>> > >>>>> > --jh-- >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < >>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> > JJ, >>>>> > >>>>> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the >>>>> asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. >>>>> > >>>>> > Joe, >>>>> > >>>>> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having >>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or >>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall >>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy mediums >>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold >>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even seasoned >>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference. >>>>> > >>>>> > In dance, >>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ &lt;jcgj95(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip >>>>> the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end >>>>> on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my >>>>> left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is >>>>> the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell >>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over >>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>>>> > >>>>> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching >>>>> roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the >>>>> traditional ballroom figure. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's >>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm." >>>>> > >>>>> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember >>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I >>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I >>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>>> > >>>>> > Jeff >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a >>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true >>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to >>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal >>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that >>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more >>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >>>>> > >>>>> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role >>>>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), >>>>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is >>>>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around >>>>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, >>>>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around >>>>> each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never >>>>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm >>>>> not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a >>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first >>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we >>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an >>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>> change... >>>>> > >>>>> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the >>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and >>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though >>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>> > >>>>> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom >>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the >>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually >>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, >>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain >>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my >>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt >>>>> the lark. >>>>> > >>>>> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire >>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they >>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more >>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only >>>>> pull forward. >>>>> > >>>>> > --jh-- >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>> &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about >>>>> this email thread and observations. >>>>> > >>>>> > Short and simple: >>>>> > A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, >>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we >>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided >>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. >>>>> > >>>>> > In dance, >>>>> > -Julian Blechner >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers < >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above >>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think >>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to >>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s >>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is >>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things >>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm >>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if >>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>> > Becky >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra >>>>> Callers &lt;contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for >>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I >>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that >>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: >>>>> you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting >>>>> with (visual at >>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swin… >>>>> ) >>>>> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that >>>>> are holding just above the elbow. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with >>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you >>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her >>>>> right hand.) >>>>> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>> >> Starts at 3:18. >>>>> >> Thoughts? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the >>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I >>>>> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the >>>>> Lark's arm? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative >>>>> height of the two dancing partners? >>>>> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the >>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Thanks all! >>>>> >> Kat K in Halifax >>>>> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>> >>> Hi Kat, >>>>> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. >>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than >>>>> further apart. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty >>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a >>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that >>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be >>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. >>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt >>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was >>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! >>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own >>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and >>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on >>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance >>>>> and weight. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, >>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I shouldn't >>>>> have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't afford to let >>>>> people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at high speeds >>>>> with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just slow the >>>>> Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their own >>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will >>>>> find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem >>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some >>>>> getting used to. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a >>>>> Ceilidh Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh >>>>> ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Happy dancing, >>>>> >>> John >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 >>>>> & 07802 940 574 >>>>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies >>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a >>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with >>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>>>> yes to one person. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra >>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most >>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which >>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would >>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s >>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they come >>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is >>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes >>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make >>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>> difference. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Becky >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner < >>>>> juliancallsdances(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom >>>>> hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our >>>>> minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to >>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Is it something else? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a >>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> In dance, >>>>> >>> Julian Blechner >>>>> >>> He/him >>>>> >>> Western Mass >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>> contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> >>