These illustrate/amplify what I was trying to say, with my emphasis added. And someone asked why such strong feelings. Who knows, but something to do with treasuring an (ideally) egalitarian, equal opportunity, cooperative nature of the social dance form which everyone has equal agency (and responsibility) to make delightful for all.
Chrissy Fowler
from Andrea---
(A swing) is a mutually decided thing, and from the right side I can time the end, stop, or alter a flourish so it puts me in the right place, control the speed of the swing and help a new dancer swing better just with my body. There is no special leadership in the left role during a swing. And in a courtesy turn, while it is true you are doing two different things, the forward walker can get where she is going unassisted. The courtesy is in engaging with her with hand and eye, not in propelling her. The action is in the joined left hands, and that only works if both give equal resistance. I think even modern choreography does not require one gender role to lead. They may choose to, and to add embellishments, but it is not essential. I matter which gender role I dance, what I want from my partner is good connection and counterbalance.
from Donna---
> Anyone who has learned ballroom/couple dances (waltz, foxtrot, swing,tango) understands what the lead/follow roles are. Contra dancing is not lead/follow.
Hah! I think I understand why I see no leader/follower dynamic in contradancing.
(a) I think of it as "let's both help each other get to where we want to go, with maximal fun and flourishes as seems appropriate" - what Maia calls a 'team sport' with 'signals and tension from both partners.' It's an equal opportunity fun zone. My favorite 'hot' partners, regardless of the role I am dancing, are the ones who view it as a give and take. They are striving to read my response to their suggested flourishes or swing speed -and- are paying attention to the flourishes or swing speed that I might be suggesting. Or as Maia puts it, the ones who 'intuit' what I'm doing, regardless of the roles we're dancing.
(b) I don't like giving up control to someone else. (In Maia's terms, I like being 'in control' and 'taking care of' the other dancers.) I simply don't like ceding all agency, in general, and I have never relied on the gent role to tell me where I am going when contradancing. I can imagine it could be sweet to feel that someone else is taking care of you, but what if they're taking you down the wrong path? Or what if they're forcibly making you do something you just don't want to do? Or what if they have no clue? No thanks.
I like both suggesting and responding to suggestions for flourishes & swing speed (as a lady or as a gent)
I like helping make sure everyone ends up in the right place (as a lady or a gent or a same role neighbor) and of course I greatly appreciate that help when I'm spacing out, or don't get the dance, or am distracted by the music.
I like the feeling of teamwork and accomplishment that comes from contradancing, including that dynamic of teamwork with my partner, regardless of what role I'm dancing and regardless of who's more experienced.
It boggles my mind that some women out there have no idea
how/where to end a swing, and some men out there have no clue how to
read whether someone does or doesn't want to twirl or how many times
they'd like to do it.
Intriguing topic and subtopics, but I have to say I'm glad I am not on FB. That larger conversation would be too damned distracting.
;)
Chrissy Fowler
I have a different take on going gender free. My application is with a
really gender imbalanced homeschool group. Little kids don't get being
called ladies and gents anyway. When the kids pair off I have them pick
whether they are a righty or lefty, the only instruction associated with
that assignment is that they end their swings standing on the right if they
are righties, left for lefties. After that, there is a large subset of the
contra moves that are gender free calls. Any move with your partner or
neighbor, circles, stars petranella's, square thru's are all without
gender reference.
A couple of easy examples I like
Promenade with Everyone improper
A1 Neighbor Do si Do
Neighbor swing
A2 Promenade across the set
Right hand star 3
B1Partner do si do
Partner swing
B2 Promenade across
Circle left 3, pass thru up and down
Stars of Fredericktown improper
A1Star left
Star right
A2Neighbor do si do
Neighbor swing
B1Balance in a circle and petranella twirl
Partner swing
B2Circle left 3
Neighbor allemande right 1 1/2
Jim Hemphill
Hi Kalia,
My favorite of these is Walpole Dollhouse, a simplification of Pat Shaw's Walpole Cottage:
Walpole Cottage- (attributed to) Erik Hoffman (3x3 Sicilian)
A1 1-4 LL F+B
5-8 "Partners" (opposites) DSD
A2 1-16 Middles dbl contra corners (PR, 1st Crnr L, PR, 2nd Crnr L, &c)
B1 (continued)
B2 1-4 Circle 6 L ½ way
5-8 Original trios circle L 3 as far as possibl, end facing next
Notes:
1) Each time thru the trio can swap around who's active in the middle (or not)
2) Teaching: With lines facing each other, each middle finds their corners by pointing: 1st to the right of their opposite, 2nd to
the left of their opposite, 3rd to their own immediate left, 4th to their immediate right.
3) Teaching: it helps if the middle does a twizzle to swap hands after turning 4th corner, now grabbing 3rd corner by the left as
they start the circle 6.
4) Teaching: if I sense the crowd can handle it, I'll teach the B2 5-8 circle as a basket hold.
I really like this dance because it's a very sneaky way to teach contra corners to almost anyone. Plus the circles both provide
silly fun and any recovery needed after all the corners. :-)
Thanx, Ric Goldman
Mighty cold Californian in Montreal
> -----Original Message-----
> From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net [mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Kalia Kliban
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 4:15 PM
> To: Caller's discussion list
> Subject: [Callers] Satisfying Sicilians
>
> I'm looking for recommendations of Sicilian circle dances that scratch
> the contra itch, that is to say, dances that are pleasing to dance in
> the same way that contras are. Joseph Pimentel's "Little Green Heron"
> falls into that category for me. What Sicilians have you danced that
> had that contra feel?
>
> Kalia
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
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Also in my area it is common to see w-w, m-m couples, and even w-m couples dancing reversed roles. I often say that "we never confuse sex with gender". This elicits a smile, and makes the point that roles vary.
Rich
----- Reply message -----
From: "Perry Shafran" <pshaf(a)yahoo.com>
To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] gender
Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2013 11:12 am
There are several issues here. One is the terminology that is used to
differentiate the two dance roles and second, whether we will ever move
contra dancing to a completely gender-free system.
I think that
we all have to understand that everyone has their own comfort zone.
Some people do NOT want to dance with a same-gendered person no matter
how much you prod them, shame them, or even force them to do so. Some
are willing to try it from time to time, others enjoy it a lot, and others want to make all
contra dances completely gender free regardless of whether or not it
will chase some members from the community.
It is a strong
uphill battle to at least move from a heteronormative way of thinking.
Just recently it was suggested that the way to get someone to contra
dance (a man) was to tell him that a
new woman will be thrown into his arms every 30 seconds. Reason being
that most people are heterosexual and might be drawn to dance thinking
he's going to dance with women. I suggested that this was a bad idea
due to the fact that in most dances you'll see men dancing with men,
women dancing with women, and people switching roles.
I think
that the best compromise is to continue with the gents/ladies
terminology, but emphasize that these are merely titles of traditional
roles, but anyone can play them regardless of physical gender. That is
what I say in my workshops, and it's usually generally understood. Any
new terminology that you use will force people to translate which means
"man" and which means "woman". However, I do understand the baggage
that these gender-loaded terms do bring.
Perry
________________________________
From: JoLaine Jones-Pokorney <jolaine(a)gmail.com>
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net; callers-request(a)sharedweight.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:23 AM
Subject: [Callers] gender
In reply to Read who said "When gendered terms are used, people are more
likely to sort themselves by gender. Newcomers are unlikely to even
consider the possibility of not doing so."
I disagree. When I teach the introductory workshop I say, "You will see
women dancing the men's role and men dancing the women's role." They see
this happening immediately, even in the introductory workshop. In our
community, men dancing the women's role is less common, but it will happen
at least once at each dance so newcomers are seeing it.
We often get new women who want to dance the men's role so that they can
dance with their women friends that they came with. Of course this isn't a
great plan since they're all newbies, but my point is that they don't
hesitate to switch roles.
I find that the long-time contra dancers are often the ones who are less
willing. At a dance just a few days ago, I asked a woman to dance. Right
beside us were two men dancing together. She declared that it was silly
for two men to dance together when there were women available to dance
with. Another time I asked a woman to dance and she said she would if she
couldn't find a man to dance with. Another time I was lined up with my
woman partner when two men came running over and declared "We know you'd
rather dance with us!" and one of them grabbed my partner away and the
other one grabbed me. These are long time dancers who are operating under
the notion that a couple equals one man and one woman and anything else is
only to be tolerated if the ideal cannot be had.
So perhaps a non-gendered term would help the long-time dancers more than
the new dancers! I notice that in this conversation thread - no one has
actually proposed another option. I've thought it ought to be something
totally random like "blue" and "yellow" but a shift that drastic just
wouldn't happen I don't think.
I'm reminded of the time I was asked to call a gender-free dance where
where they were using "bands and bares." I spent a tremendous amount of
time practicing calling bands and bares and getting dances I felt
comfortable calling that way. IN the introductory workshop, I was passing
out bandanas for the bands and one man was asking his friend what I meant
by the "bands." She said to him - "She means the mens part." I thought
why did I just bother to learn bare and band when they're just thinking
women and men?
--
JoLaine Jones-Pokorney
"We are as gods and might as well get good at it!"
- Stewart Brand
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_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
I'm looking for recommendations of Sicilian circle dances that scratch
the contra itch, that is to say, dances that are pleasing to dance in
the same way that contras are. Joseph Pimentel's "Little Green Heron"
falls into that category for me. What Sicilians have you danced that
had that contra feel?
Kalia
Hmmm...Perry, as you probably already know, I agree with the principles you outline here. I'm 100% behind equality of opportunity in every possible context. In dancing, having the right and ability to decline any particular act is important. However, I feel like even the use of a term like "decline" suggests at most a temporary suspension of a lead/follow dynamic because it is a defensive/reactive thing, not an expression of leadership. Sort of like civil protest.
But please bear in mind, my present comments are intended to add to a discussion of how things seem to be now, not how we might wish to change/improve it in the future. Idealistically I'd love the concept of being led half of the time even if I danced as a gent exclusively (which is rare), just as I'd love being asked to dance half of the time. (Actually, the latter does happen to me every so often.)
Brian
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
In response to Perry's query about how "leading" comes into play:
I've always thought that the concept of lead/follow comes in by the very existence of the courtesy turn, as well as by the traditional closed position that is used for swinging in which it is far easier to direct the motion from the gent's role than the lady's. I speak from plenty of experience in both roles. Having your arms under your partner's so that your hand is on his/her mid back makes a huge difference. It means a superior ability to lead flourishes as well as to control speed and ending time/orientation of the swing. As a follow I usually find that I can support my own weight through my partner's shoulder but can do little else to direct the action.
Brian Hamshar
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
"For this dance, decide which one of you is going to be the lady and which one of you will be the gent. Put the lady on the right.
Don't worry, it's not permanent, I promise. In another dance I'm gonna call you "foxes" and "squirrels" -
they're just traditional calls that rhyme well - I promise no one will actually sprout a tail or any other bodily appendage."
or
"Decide who's going to be the lady & who's going to be the gent. Don't worry - I *know* none of you are really [gentlemen/ladies] - That implies good manners and decorum."
or
"Decide who's going to dance the role of Lady and who's going to pretend to be a Gent. Someone told me once I should use other non-gender-specific
words like "Aardvark" and "Duck", but I kept getting into trouble with the rhymes.... So now I stick with Lady and Gent. Much safer."
