Contra Callers

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4360 discussions

by Tom Hinds

I too have noticed the tone of these discussion change dramatically as well. From the beginning, this was a very simple and interesting forum for exchanging ideas. I agree with Linda that the comments of many people show an attitude that I could do without. Some of the grandiose claims that a number of you make just leave shaking my head. Isn't it true that the answer to many issues is often "it depends"? Couldn't your way and another person's way be valid at the same time? At the same time I admit that I made a mistake in labeling Greg's method of integrating new dancers as weird. Greg, if you were insulted, please accept my apologies. I don't need to add fuel to the fire and I'll be more careful in the future. Let's view these discussions as great learning opportunities. They shouldn't be bitch sessions, ego builders, opportunities for power plays or therapy sessions!!!!!!!!!!! Tom

11 years, 10 months

Re: [Callers] NO-CONES Swings & Hand Placement

by John Sweeney

JoLaine said, "When I dance lead, if I encounter a woman who leans back on me, I simply walk the swing so there is no centrifugal force generated." Yes, self-defense mechanisms are great. Mine is to move my right hand from the lady's shoulder-blade to her waist so that I am not supporting her. And, as you say, one way or another, slow the swing down. It isn't worth getting hurt for. JoLaine said, " You are using the hand behind the other person's shoulder to gently PULL IN". Sorry, I would disagree there. I have experienced a lot of ladies who have been told that, and as a result they put their hand on your back and press hard. I always tell people to just PLACE the hand there. As the swing speeds up you will automatically resist the centrifugal force, but only with just enough pressure to counter it. Too many people start pressing when there is no need and it can be quite uncomfortable. You never actually need to pull in. Of course that only applies if the lady places her hand on the man's back. I never teach that. I always tell ladies to rest their arm gently on the man's upper arm. And here, from a previous discussion with Andrea (we agree to disagree on this one :-) ) is why: = = = = = = = = = Yes, I love swings that are 100% symmetrical. I do lots of Galway Swings, Northumberland Swings, Ceilidh Swing, Sweetheart Swing, etc. where you are both absolutely symmetrical. But the normal buzz-step swing is not QUITE symmetrical. The man's right arm usually goes under the lady's left arm. And that is what makes all the difference. Yes, I know some very well-respected American callers who teach a swing with the lady's left hand on the back of the man's shoulder blade. I believe that there are many challenges associated with this: 1) The man, who, on average, has longer arms, reaches under the lady's arm to very easily reach her shoulder-blade. The lady, with her (on average) shorter arms and probably starting from lower down, has to reach OVER the man's arm to get to his shoulder-blade. Yes, some ladies can reach. But in my experience many ladies cannot easily reach and still be comfortable. 2) If they can just reach, many ladies then, instead of just placing their hand on the man's shoulder-blade (so that when centrifugal force increases they can resist it) they actually press into the man's shoulder-blade. I am not sure if this is just bad technique, but I suspect it may be partially to do with the fact that they can only just reach so they press so that their hand doesn't slip. It can be quite uncomfortable for the man. 3) Even if the lady's arm is the same length as the man, and she is the same height, she still has to reach over his arm, so it automatically pulls you closer together than you need to be, and even closer if her arm is shorter. While there are fun swing variations where we get really, really close, in a standard buzz-step swing I don't believe that being forced closer together is desirable. 4) It is not necessary if the man's hand is well placed. As you say each supports their own weight, so all the connection is doing is resisting centrifugal force and, in nearly 50 years of swinging, I have never found that a problem. 5) It is quite common for the lady to twirl under the man's arm at the end of a swing. If the lady twirls counter-clockwise that is not a problem. But if she twirls clockwise then she will break her arm. Probably not a problem is the lady is completely in control of the twirl - she just prepares for it by moving her arm, but if the man takes some part in initiating the twirl (which I believe is very common) then if he tries to twirl her and she reacts slowly then either the twirl fails or she gets hurt. Of course if the lady's left hand is just resting on the man's upper arm she can twirl either way without a problem. The hand just slides off easily. 6) In complex flourishes, such as a Texas Tommy/Apache Whip exit from a swing, then you really do need some lead and follow, and it is nearly always the man leading the lady. A move like that is impossible if the lady's left hand is on the man's back. Believe me I have tried it! I hope that helps you understand why I always teach the lady to leave her relaxed left arm resting on the man's upper arm. :-) = = = = = = = = = I know we will never get agreement on this, but at least please tell people to just PLACE the hand - no inward pressure is required, just the resistance to outward pressure. :-) Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

11 years, 10 months

Re: [Callers] How to Teach a Hey

by John Sweeney

One way is to start with a Lucky 7 Circle Mixer: A1: Circle Left x 2 A2: Into the Middle and Back x 2 B1: Grand Chain (Start Right Hand with Partner (#1). Men CC, Ladies C - don't turn!) B2: Swing #7 Sorry, in America I guess you would say Grand Right & Left rather than Grand Chain. That gets them weaving, then you just need to handle the end effects when you have a line rather than a circle. I usually use Flirtation Reel next since it sets up a nice symmetrical position where everyone starts right shoulder at the same time. And I dance it the first time using hands to pull by. The hands helps them to turn the easy way at the end of the line. You just need to tell them to make a loop as they turn at the end of the line to take up some time, and NOT to offer a hand - wait to see which hand you are being offered by the person coming out of the hey - they know which one it is! Once you drop the hands, remind them to look at the person they pass and they will turn the easy way at the end of the line. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

11 years, 10 months

Re: [Callers] How to Teach a Hey

by Dan Pearl

During a workshop at the DownEast Festival which discussed effective use of words, I discovered that I came up with a teaching technique for the hey that I could use if I REALLY wanted to teach the hey to a room full of newbies (which is, like, never BTW). Use hands. For instance: "Women turn by the right halfway. Now turn your partners by the left halfway. Now the men turn by the right halfway, and turn your neighbor halfway...." "Now do it again, but leave out the hands (but take them if it helps). ___ two WOmen BY the RIGHT then PARTner by the LEFT TWO MEN BY the RIGHT, NEIGHbor ___ by the LEFT etc. I have never used this in an actual dance, but I think it would work. Dan

11 years, 10 months

Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance

by JohnFreem＠aol.com

Great stuff, Greg! I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers. John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ

11 years, 10 months

Request for civility from the list

by Linda Leslie

In recent weeks, I have begun to notice that some posts lack the usual supportive comments and suggestions that I have come to enjoy on this list. Instead, there seems to be more than a hint of "I'm right, you must be wrong" or "how could you possibly think that......?", and other negative postings. I include here comments concerning our approaches/teaching as callers, but also about dancers and dance communities. More recently, folks have been suggesting that positive phrases will work better to encourage dancers and make them feel great about dancing. It would seem logical that we would practice this behavior with each other! We all have different dance communities and ways that we have learned to call and teach and dance. I would hope that we would offer our own experiences as suggestions, or ways that have been successful in our own dance communities, and avoid denigrating the experiences or ideas of others. My thanks to the many on the list who are very aware of the impact of their posts, and continue to share in such positive ways. I would so much appreciate again looking forward to all of the emails generated from this list. Respectfully, Linda

11 years, 10 months

Re: [Callers] No thumb allemandes

by John Sweeney

Martha said, "I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb allemande. How the heck do you get any connection with it? Two flat surfaces and only friction - you might as well just walk around the other person, it's worse than a noodle arm. The way most people do get connection is to bend the wrist to provide some contact for shared weight - and that hurts my wrist horribly. So if someone gives me a no thumb allemande, I comply, desperately trying not to have my wrist bent, and if it is someone who doesn't bend the wrist, then there is no connection, no "shared weight" and no chance if it's a 1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always taught the allemande hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the connection, and I have stolen that description from him and use it myself. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing or gripping, in fact, it can even lie flat next to the curled fingers and not intersect the other thumb, as he mentions in describing the star hold. Connection without thumb pain." Maybe there is some confusion about what people mean by a "no thumb allemande". What I mean by a "no thumb allemande" is exactly what you describe: "the allemande hold is a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the connection. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing or gripping, and should lie flat next to the curled fingers and not intersect the other thumb." So, for me, the "no thumb allemande" is a good allemande grip but with the thumbs NOT interlocked. I occasionally meet people in the lines who offer me a flat hand with their fingers straight (sometimes even splayed!) for an allemande. Very uncomfortable and useless for zesty dancing. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

11 years, 10 months

NO-CONES Swings

by JoLaine Jones-Pokorney

I have to speak up regarding telling people to lean back into a swing. I don't think a top is a good analogy as a top is one solid item, not two people trying to hold onto each other. No one needs to lean back because centrifugal force is already pushing you back! If anything, you are using the hand behind the other person's shoulder to gently PULL IN just enough to counter the centrifugal force that is pushing you out. That way each person supports his/her own weight. There are too many women who throw their entire weight onto the man's arm. I can't help but believe they heard some caller tell them to "lean back!" The most serious injury I've had contra dancing had nothing to do with dipping or twirling, but with women who throw their entire weight onto my arm. When I dance lead, if I encounter a woman who leans back on me, I simply walk the swing so there is no centrifugal force generated. -- JoLaine Jones-Pokorney "We are as gods and might as well get good at it!" - Stewart Brand

11 years, 10 months

Re: [Callers] Timing & Force

by John Sweeney

Jean said, " Must disagree about leaning backwards (resisting each other, leaning away within reason) and swing/allemande speed. The physical shapes that spin best are cones (children's tops), small at the bottom, wider at the top. Couple turns and pivots (in other social dance forms like waltz), have the gent stepping almost between the woman's legs and have the woman resisting the guy by dancing further back into his right hand than usual...this sets up the 'wider at the top, narrow at the bottom" shape conducive to faster smoother spins. Again, I said "within reason"....no leaning away from the waist (the optimal form is a V not a Y). The inherent joy of a good "V" with strong resistance (weight-giving)?is what makes the buzz step swing so much more fun than the 'walk around' swing of modern squares." Well, if you stand a cone up without it spinning it will fall over; I don't usually fall over when I stop spinning, so I guess the two systems aren't really comparable :-) Yes, you may end up with a slight V, but that happens because centrifugal force is pulling you apart. The swing should be a gentle counter-balance. Keep your own balance, relax, and move your feet faster to make the swing faster. Leaning is unnecessary, uncomfortable for your partner, and counter-productive. I teach waltz as well and would never dream of suggesting that the lady should resist or push into his right hand. She is supposed to be following. Why on earth would she resist him? The V will occur naturally through centrifugal force as you speed up. Resisting/leaning just makes your partner have to waste energy to stop you falling over. Giving weight is also a greatly misunderstood term. It is nothing to do with leaning. It is about controlling your centre of gravity and putting it in the optimal position for whatever you are doing. There is also the physics to consider. Getting further apart increases your moment of inertia, and thus, for the same energy you have a lower angular velocity. The closer you are together the faster you can spin. That is why you interlock your feet in a waltz spin turn - you get close together and reduce your moment of inertia. I swing very fast with a good partner. Read more about my description of how to achieve it at: http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

11 years, 10 months

Re: [Callers] No thumb allemandes

by Martha Wild

I agree fully with Erik Hoffman. I can't fathom the no thumb allemande. How the heck do you get any connection with it? Two flat surfaces and only friction - you might as well just walk around the other person, it's worse than a noodle arm. The way most people do get connection is to bend the wrist to provide some contact for shared weight - and that hurts my wrist horribly. So if someone gives me a no thumb allemande, I comply, desperately trying not to have my wrist bent, and if it is someone who doesn't bend the wrist, then there is no connection, no "shared weight" and no chance if it's a 1 1/2 allemande to get around in time. Erik has always taught the allemande hold as being a "hook", with the curled fingers providing the connection, and I have stolen that description from him and use it myself. The thumb is along for the ride but should not do any squeezing or gripping, in fact, it can even lie flat next to the curled fingers and not intersect the other thumb, as he mentions in describing the star hold. Connection without thumb pain. Thanks, Erik. Martha On Jul 1, 2013, at 9:00 AM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote: > Send Callers mailing list submissions to > callers(a)sharedweight.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > callers-request(a)sharedweight.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > callers-owner(a)sharedweight.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures (Read Weaver) > 2. Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (Greg McKenzie) > 3. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (JohnFreem(a)aol.com) > 4. Re: Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance (barb kirchner) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 20:48:26 -0400 > From: Read Weaver <rweaver(a)igc.org> > To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures > Message-ID: <9D058E28-3D5B-46C1-ABA3-F5EE755519E7(a)igc.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Yeah, I don't understand the problem with no thumbs--I go out of my way to teach the no-thumb hold to beginners, mostly to avoid twisted thumbs from the person who doesn't let go in time. Is there some thought that it leads to the bent-wrist hold? > > On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Jacob Bloom wrote: > >> As for the no-thumb allemande: Years ago, I started having a problem with >> my left thumb aching for days after a dance, from the allemande lefts. >> This started almost 30 years ago, so I can't blame that problem on >> advancing age. As far as I'm concerned, doing an allemande without locking >> thumbs is an improvement which has been made necessary by the modern >> tendency to do an allemande all the way around in four beats instead of six >> or eight. I'm always delighted when I run into another dancer who gives me >> a no-thumb allemande. Anything that prevents injury is a good thing. >> >> Jacob Bloom >> jandnbloom(a)gmail.com >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <callers-request(a)sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 00:03:40 -0700 >>> From: Erik Hoffman <erik(a)erikhoffman.com> >>> To: jean francis <catherineaura(a)yahoo.com>, Caller's discussion list >>> <callers(a)sharedweight.net> >>> Subject: >>> >>> Re: [Callers] First-time Contra Dancers and similar figures >>> >>> [1] An aside: many people call this the "wrist grip" form. I encourage >>> us all to remove the word "grip" from out teaching lexicon, as gripping >>> has led to griping, and that (IMHO) horrid no-thumb allemande... The >>> connection is through hooks and surfaces to lean on, not through >>> gripping. And, although I don't like the no thumb allemande, when do I >>> teach this form of star, I encourage all five fingers, thumb included, >>> going over the top of the wrist in front - no grip. >>> >>> erik hoffman >>> ~oakland, ca > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 07:55:18 -0700 > From: Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com> > To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance > Message-ID: > <CAFqkWLt0qEFdYC4FFthx-K+8wi6yAGE=3-cKEGpBdOee5k5pWg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > I just listened to "RadioLab" on NPR > > http://www.radiolab.org/ > > The current show on "Inner Voices" is fascinating and has information about > how the expectations of teachers (or callers) can affect performance. The > impacts of simple word changes in how a task is described can make a > dramatic difference in how people perform that task. The show talks about > research on test performance as well as a study involving the performance > of psychomotor skills (golf). > > This research dramatizes how small word choices and attitudes (or framings) > by callers could change the competence of many people in the room enough to > make the caller's job much easier or more difficult. Check it out. > > The segment about the specific research begins at about 11 minutes and 15 > seconds in. But the entire show is good. > > Makes me think about every time I have said: "Now this part of the dance is > a little tricky." > > - Greg McKenzie > West Coast, USA > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400 (EDT) > From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com > To: callers(a)sharedweight.net > Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance > Message-ID: <99c29.775e271b.3f02f5a8(a)aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Great stuff, Greg! > > I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my > career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while > teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to > first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two > tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers. > > John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 15:19:44 +0000 > From: barb kirchner <barbkirchner(a)hotmail.com> > To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance > Message-ID: <BLU177-W7967532EE4DEE44DCFFF1DE710(a)phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > THANKS for bringing up this important teaching technique. > > the way you phrase something can make ALL the difference. > > instead of "this is a little tricky", i go with "this LOOKS a little bit different, but you'll be surprised how easy it is!" or "here comes the fun part!" > > if you ACT like you KNOW they'll just be able to do it, well, that's what they'll do. > > barb > > > >> From: JohnFreem(a)aol.com >> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:09:28 -0400 >> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller Expectations and Dancer Performance >> >> Great stuff, Greg! >> >> I learned many important things from some of the great callers early in my >> career. Larry Edelman taught me to teach about "places, not faces" while >> teaching squares. This can also apply to contras. Ted Sanella taught me to >> first tell who we were to look for, then what we were to do with them. These two >> tips have proven very helpful when working with all dancers. >> >> John B. Freeman, SFTPOCTJ >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)sharedweight.net >> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)sharedweight.net > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > > > End of Callers Digest, Vol 107, Issue 1 > ***************************************

11 years, 10 months

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Contra Callers