Contra Callers September 2011

contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net

69 participants
46 discussions

by Mark Widmer

I'm with Chris on this one, each person exerts 20 pounds on the other person, and nobody is exerting 40 pounds. (This is a clear example of Newton's 3rd Law, for those who are familiar with introductory physics.) Mark > Jeff Kaufman wrote: > > > Chris Lahey wrote: >> I got the same 20 lbs in my calculations, but I don't think you get to >> double it. If I'm the gent, my hand is putting 20 lbs of force on the >> ladies back. At the same time, her back is putting 20 lbs of force on my >> hand. When we carry a 20 lb object, we're pulling up with 20 lbs of force >> and it's pulling down with 20 lbs of force, but we don't call it 40 lbs of >> force. > Sure. The doubling comes from 20lbf per person. It takes 20lbf to > hold me in, and 20lbf to hold them in, so between us we need 40lbf to > stay together. > >> There's also the fact that despite some of the radial acceleration >> coming from centripital force, I suspect some of it comes from the >> feet. >> > That might be important. I'm not sure how to measure that. > > If someone wants to bring a bathroom or similar scale to the concord > scout house tonight, I would be curious to measure this. > > Jeff > > >

13 years, 2 months

Six-facing-six Dances and Other Adjustments for a Tight Hall

by Christopher Buck

The hall for the Emerald City Dance at the Phinney Neighborhood Center easily support two lines but not three. From http://seattledance.org/contra/emeraldcity/performerinfo : 'Our hall is just barely wide enough for three lines, but not comfortably so. As a result, we have the opposite of the "center line" phenomenon common at some other dances. The center line is shorter, and crowded by the two outer lines. The out er lines widen out just beyond the end of the center line and this can sometimes cause "turbulence" and lead to confusion. Because of this, some of our regulars prefer not to dance in the center set, so the shortness of the line and turbulence are compounded by a higher percentage of new dancers.' I'm thinking a few six-facing-six dances should help to maintain the spacing. I'm looking for any and all of those. Also, it seems to me that dances that progress from side to side as well as up and down the hall might help. Any other suggestions are also certainly welcome. Respectfully, Chris Christopher Buck

13 years, 2 months

Re Swinging

by John Sweeney

Jeff said: "Something needs to be holding the two of you together. The gent has his right hand on the lady's back." Yes - that is what is holding you together. Why do you need more? = = = = = = Digression = = = = = Jeff actually said "ladies' back" - yes, I do dance with two ladies at once - you can see it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE6Iu6Fh6bw and so yes I do sometimes have my hands on ladies' backs :-) = = = = = = End of Digression = = = = = Jeff continued: "If the gent is strong and the lady light, that is sufficient." I firmly believe that both parties should be responsible for their own weight and balance. If the lady is in control of her balance then why is the lady's weight or the man's strength relevant? I have danced with ladies twice my size and had a delightful light swing, and I have danced with ladies half my size and had to support their weight in a painful matter. It is not about weight it is about balance. "If the lady additionally has their left hand on the back of the the gent's right shoulder, then the lady is doing more of the holding together and the gent can do less." Centrifugal force is not that great - if you are in balance the pressure is tiny. = = = = = = = = = = = Greg said: ".one figure that is pretty unique to contra dance. It's called the 'buzz-step swing.'" My mother learnt it in Galway, Ireland as a girl from her grandfather nearly 100 years ago. She taught me in the 1960s. I am told that the Scottish call it "birling". Of course if you mean "contra dance" as an American pronunciation of the French "contre danse" meaning "country dance" then I guess it is a reasonable statement. But if you mean modern American contra dance series (as opposed to Irish, Scottish, ceilidh, ECD, International, etc.) then I would disagree :-) Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events, Instructional DVDs and Interactive Maps http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

13 years, 2 months

Re Swinging

by John Sweeney

Hi Jeff, No, I don't do slow swings (unless my partner wants to go slowly, or I have to go into self-defense mode!). Impressive maths - but I think the calculations are a little more complex. :-) Sharing the (small) load might be worthwhile. But there are still these challenges: - Some ladies can't comfortably reach the man's shoulder-blade - Any other hand position is likely to generate gripping if she is trying to share the load - Her hand behind the shoulder-blade makes clockwise exits more difficult - Most ladies who reach around to my shoulder-blade tend to push in with their hand (maybe because they are having trouble reaching it) which is uncomfortable I find swinging with a partner who relaxes their left hand onto the front of my arm FAR more pleasurable. Because the ballroom hold is asymmetrical there can't be a 50-50 share in the connection. Of course if you do a Northumberland swing, a ceilidh swing, a Galway swing, a sweetheart swing, a hornpipe swing, etc. then you do have symmetry and then you can share the load. But I have never noticed much difference in the load when I do those swings as compared to a ballroom hold, so I guess the load must be small! :-) I get people to spin fast with a buzz-step by themselves first - they never fall over even though no-one else is holding them up. If they do the same thing when joined with a partner then the pressure is low. Let's try it on the dance-floor some time. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events, Instructional DVDs and Interactive Maps http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

13 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Re Swinging

by Chrissy Fowler

I recall George Marshall in a pre-dance beginner's workshop explaining giving weight as something like this: "that feeling of mutual tension that you use when you are helping someone up off the floor - you both have to give a bit of pull, or weight, to make it work well. Same with contra dance." (not exactly what he said, I'm sure, but that image has stuck with me as very effective and easily referenced analogy.) Chrissy Fowler Belfast ME > I still haven't heard something really pithy > and direct that will give them the sensation they need to understand. > Andrea

13 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] When did pre-dance beginners' workshops start in YOUR area?

by Dan Pearl

The first contra dance I ever attended was in 1979 at the CDS Boston Tuesday night dance at the Brimmer and May School in Chestnut Hill, Mass. The pre-dance workshop was handled by none other than Al Olson. Later, when Al moved to Chicago, I was one of the people who took responsibility for that early teaching session. I don't know how long the pre-dance sessions were in operation before I arrived. Dan

13 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] When did pre-dance beginners' workshops start in YOUR area?

by mavis mcgaugh

my 2 cents worth: Found contra dancing in 1992 at Glen Echo in Md. They did a newcomer's session there --- moved to No. California in 1999 - they did them out here at all the dances. whenever I am doing a newomer's workshop before a dance - I always tell those folks present - Contra dancing is EASY - you don't need lessons to contra dance - it's Not about being perfect -- it is about having FUN - and sharing the joy of the music and the dance with the other folks on the dance floor. - we offer the session to give folks an opportunity to lesrn how the dsnce flows - what progression is - how to swing comfortably and end where you need to be safely -- what a courtesy turn is - hand holds that don't hurt -- what gets taught is dictated in part by how many newbies show up and how early they arrive. I talk fairly quickly thru the session so they have to listen closely - cause when the music and dancing starts - things move rather quickly. I think of the 'newbie' session as a bridge --- helps to move an individual towards hearing/listening to a Caller - and more importantly towards becoming a member of a [4 person]group - accomplishing a figure together -- then moving along to form another group - and doing that over and over again thru the dance. I call in Northern California and fortunately many experienced dancers step up and participate in the newcomers sessions and they are good about partnering the 'newbies' so they are taken care of during those crucial first dances and thru the evening. Mavis L McGaugh 510-814-8118 (answering machine-leave message) --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Hanny Budnick <kyrmyt(a)cavtel.net> wrote: > From: Hanny Budnick <kyrmyt(a)cavtel.net> > Subject: [Callers] When did pre-dance beginners' workshops start in YOUR area? > To: millstone(a)valley.net, "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 1:04 PM > I have encountered these pre-dance > introductions only outside of New England. When I > reintroduced contra dancing in Philadelphia in the early > seventies, we did only traditional dances which are - in my > opinion - very beginner-friendly anyway and didn't need > extra introductions, not even the triple minors. > I've noticed the change to offer a pre-dance workshop ca. > 20 years ago. > When I'm calling in other areas, I usually let the local > leaders handle the early intro because they are familiar > with their scene. The Glenside Thursday night dance in the > Philly area always has an introductory 20 minutes for > newcomers either by the caller-coordinator of the evening or > the out-of-town caller. > When calling abroad, I start with easily accessible dances > and build on them, but I don't use pre-dance workshops. > Hanny, Danzmeestersche > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)sharedweight.net > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers >

13 years, 2 months

Re Swinging

by John Sweeney

Hi Beth, As I said at the beginning of my post, I apologise for anything I may have misunderstood. It looks as though I may have not understood exactly where you were suggesting that the lady should place her hand. And I still don't understand statements such as "make him pull her through the swing" and "holding on to the gent a little bit so that he isn't the only one working during the swing". If you both keep your own balance and work the swing with your feet, then the upper bodies should be an effortless, relaxed symmetrical, counter-balanced, coupling that both parties can enjoy. I suspect we won't get any further with this discussion unless we continue it on the dance floor. I am sure you are a wonderful swinger and I look forward to meeting you on the dance floor somewhere, somewhen - we vacation in the US every year and visit contra dance weekends and local clubs as much as possible. Yes, we do have high-energy contras in the UK - but they are much rarer than in the US. Yes, there are lots of more sedate swingers at the local Folk Dance Clubs - many of them are in the 70s and 80s - and many of them swing beautifully. The regular Ceilidh dancers would be most upset that you think them inexperienced - there are many who go regularly to ceilidhs and are excellent dancers. And there is a much wider variety of swings at ceilidhs, such as traveling swings and hornpipe swings (when the music is at 80bpm instead of 120bpm the buzz-step doesn't work - you need to do a step hop and need different connection), plus lots of stepping. And across all the different types of event on both sides of the Atlantic, I generally find that there is a complete range of swinging skills, from excellent to terrible. As in the US, there are lots of One Night Stand type events (barn dances (but often called ceilidhs) at weddings, parties, community gatherings, etc.) where virtually all the attendees are beginners. - - - - - Marianne then said: "I've found that the most comfortable position for my partner and me is for us both to have our hand on the other's shoulder blade (that is to say, on the back rather than the top of the shoulder)." I know lots of people who find that very uncomfortable - they can't reach, or can, but only by clamping down the man's arm. And it does, sadly, mean that a clockwise exit from the swing is dangerous, if not impossible. "Push gently there" WHY? You have just created a beautiful, relaxed symmetrical, counter-balance with your partner, the man's right hand is on the lady's left shoulder-blade to ensure that you stay connected when centrifugal force increases. Why push? If you push with your back it makes the other person's arm tired. If you push with your hand, no matter how gently, it causes discomfort. Why push? "the woman might have her whole arm draped down the man's with a bit of tension pressing down" No, you don't need to press down - it has no beneficial effect and causes discomfort - as does putting your hand on the side of his arm and pressing in - something that lots of ladies do - again, no benefit, lots of discomfort! "but I haven't seen it work well in contra unless the woman is experienced enough to dance upright and bear her own weight" You don't have to be experienced to dance upright and bear your own weight. We have all been doing it since we started walking! It only becomes a problem when beginners are taught to lean or misunderstand terms like "give weight". I always start a buzz-step swing instructional by getting the dancers to practise turning fast alone with a buzz-step, so that they learn to keep their own balance. - - - - - - - Sorry if I sound a bit passionate about this topic, but I love swinging, and have had so many bad experiences because of ladies who push, pull, lean, drag, lift, squeeze, strangle, clamp, grip, dig in or hang off the man! I have had two shoulder operations - I am hoping that I won't have to have any more! Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events, Instructional DVDs and Interactive Maps http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

13 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Implied Messages in First-Timer's Orientation

by David.Millstone＠valley.net

The more I read the comments in this discussion, the more I start humming lyrics to an old Bob Dylan song: "You're right from your side and I'm right from mine." Some folks are clearly on the side of not having newcomers' workshops at all. Others think they're fine but should focus on various social aspects of dance. Others think that a major emphasis should be put on teaching figures; some think that there should be a lot of figures taught; others, only a few. Some see it as vital that new dancers learn how to do a buzz step swing and others say, no, stick to just a walking step swing. What I like best about the discussion is that it indicates that callers are clearly thinking about these issues. To my mind, that's the most important thing. In the same way that it's possible for different dance series to have different visions of How The Dance Should Be, so, too, it's possible for folks to have a different vision for the start of an evening. When I'm asked to call at a location away from home, I sometimes am asked to teach a beginners' workshop and sometimes there's a local person teaching it. If the latter, I make a point to attend. Sometimes I cringe at what I hear and the approach taken; other times I walk away impressed at how effective the teacher was. Take another aspect of calling... on this list, I suspect that callers will say that they aim to call a few times through a danceI and then get out of the way, to let the dancers dance to the music without intrustive calls. Indeed, I've been thanked on occasion by dancers for efficient teaching and for such brief prompts. (On occasion, I'll teach the first part of a dance and then will just say, "And the rest will give you no problem..." and cut the walkthrough short. I've also been thanked by dancers for continuing to call: "Too many callers just stop calling after three or four times through the dance; I really appreciated the way that you continued to call... I was able to get through the dance without problems thanks to that." In short, there's more than one good way to approach these issues. Different dancers have different needs, and different callers find good-- and different-- ways of meeting those needs. David Millstone Lebanon, NH P.S. As a historical note, I think it worth pointing out the concept of workshops before the dances is a relatively recent phenomenon... maybe 25 years old, but probably more like 10-15 years. (I'd be interested to hear from others around the country on when they think these introductory sessions began in their neighborhood.) To be sure, going back into earlier centuries, there were dancing masters and classes, but I'm talking about twentieth century social dances, at least in the part of New England about which I know the most. People just came to the dance and learned as they went; that's certainly what happened at community square dances; where contras were done, which was a relatively small number of venues, there wasn't such an introduction in places such as Nelson, NH, and at Dudley dances throughout the late 1960s and into the 1970s, the events that (IMHO) were the primary jumping off point for making contras a much more popular dance form. It might be worth speculating on what led to the introduction of such workshops...why folks came to feel that they were necessary. Changes in the dance programs? In the folks coming to the dances? in the caller's expectations of what they hoped to accomplish in the course of the evening? broader societal / cultural changes? But all of that is grounds for starting a new thread, so if anyone is interested in picking it up, I hope they'll change the subject line.

13 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Re Swinging

by Marianne Tatom Letts

I've found that the most comfortable position for my partner and me is for us both to have our hand on the other's shoulder blade (that is to say, on the back rather than the top of the shoulder). Push gently there and you can get around as fast as you like without either person getting injured. I never, ever tell the woman to put her hand on top of the man's shoulder blade. This may be appropriate for ballroom, in which the woman might have her whole arm draped down the man's with a bit of tension pressing down, but I haven't seen it work well in contra unless the woman is experienced enough to dance upright and bear her own weight. It's a recipe for disaster for a beginner, IMHO, as is telling her to grab his arm. Beginners panic and start squeezing, harder and harder, if the swing is fast or they feel otherwise unsteady on their feet. When I teach my newcomers' workshop, I include "ways to hurt your partner": -woman's hand on the top of the man's shoulder, pushing down and throwing him off balance (draping the hand isn't any better, since that means he has to support all of her weight) -Vulcan nerve pinch (same as above but with directed pinching motion in that soft spot between the top of the shoulder and the neck) -woman's hand gripping the man's upper arm (gripping harder and harder if he swings faster) -woman pushing against the man's chest in an attempt to create distance (he's having to support her because she really will fall off otherwise) -man digging his fingers into the woman's lower back (going for the kidneys?) -either partner gripping the pointy hand, with or without a pumping motion (should be either relaxed, loose hold, if you're relying on the other hand/shoulder blade combo for support) or have light, positive tension Then there's all the ways people can position the rest of their bodies so it's uncomfortable for either or both. -crab walk (woman is somehow walking backwards; can be fixed by angling more toward the man) -man's hand on waist instead of shoulder blade (doesn't help with balance, can be painful and/or inappropriate) -woman's chest pressing against the man's arm or body (difficult to correct without saying "please get your boobs off me" -- and I suspect many men won't bother correcting this one, either because they're embarrassed or because they're enjoying it; it's awkward for me to correct verbally when I'm leading too) -head down, looking at feet (throws whole frame off and creates dizziness) -hopping and/or raising knees too high in an attempt at a buzz step (which is why I demonstrate the buzz step but suggest they keep to a walking step) -noodle arms I'm sure I'm leaving out things, but this is what springs to mind. I demo some of these bad moves (with exaggeration and humor) when showing the swing with an experienced partner, then correct around the teaching circle as needed. -Marianne

13 years, 2 months

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Contra Callers September 2011