9 Feb
2023
9 Feb
'23
11:47 a.m.
Hi Ridge,
You are brave to bring this issue up. I empathize with your discomfort, and appreciate
your willingness to try to work around it to make the space safe and welcoming to other
dancers.
As a lesbian, I confess my initial (unthinking and I’m not proud of it) reaction was “get
over it—gay folks have been expected to swing a partner they’re not attracted to and may
even find repulsive for hundreds of years.” But then I thought a bit longer and I could
actually relate:
I heard another lesbian dancer say years ago she chose to only dance the “gent” role to
avoid swinging with (a few) leering heterosexual men—she solved the problem by choosing
the gent role. Of course that is different from being uncomfortable swinging with ALL men,
because it was about the leering vibe, not the sex of the person. So I guess that’s not
the same. (BTW, we fixed that problem by coming up with a dance code of ethics, announcing
expectations at every dance, and then finally banning the one problematic guy who refused
to stop making double entendre comments.)
But back to empathizing with your situation: I will say this: I almost always dance the
lark role because of a tricky hip. And I’m COMPLETELY comfortable swinging with all the
men who come down the line dancing as robins. But, I confess, when I (rarely) dance the
robin role, I am compelled to swing with some men who only dance lark who I’m not used to
swinging and it does feel a little awkward to me. Not repulsive or scary. Just weird, as
if this is a level of intimacy that is not “supposed” to happen with this person. (And,
honestly, it’s NOT supposed to happen: I’m not heterosexual, so it doesn’t feel “natural”
initially.) I will say that once I do it for a while I get used to it and it’s fine—I
suspect the same would happen for you if you give it some time.
But I also will say this: when I was living in Alabama in the 1990s and doing those “meet
a gay person for the first time to find out we’re not so scary” Q&A sessions, one
thing I always said was “I know if you’re straight, the idea of two people of the same sex
having sex may feel really icky to you. I get it. I have the same reaction to thinking
about heterosexuals having sex... Ick.” I found this really helped them get past the gut
feeling of “wrongness” that the idea of gayness had. And, honestly, it was also true for
me. (Not for all gay folks but true for me... Ick! Why would anyone DO that?!) So it would
feel disingenuous to me to not at least empathize with someone who has a gut reaction to
swinging another guy. Now, again, swinging is not sex, and I think it should be possible
for most guys to get over this in the same way most lesbians have gotten over having to
swing men. And most of the “don’t touch a guy that way” feeling more likely comes from a
lifetime of homophobic messaging that has shamed boys for anything that could be construed
as being “gay” (rather than from a genuine, innate feeling of ickiness). But for some
folks that may be a thing.
I think for most folks (because swinging is just swinging and not sex!) that some gutting
it out until it feels normal will likely do the trick. But if that doesn’t work, I do hope
your home dance will accommodate your needs by not judging you if you ask for a different
swing. That said, I confess my first uninformed reaction to someone asking for another
swing would likely be an assumption that it came from a place of homophobia. That comes
from a lifetime of subtle and non-subtle signals of non-inclusion/rejection/judgment that
queer folks have had to deal with our whole lives. But I do hope that if I were in your
home dance, if we had some genuine, caring conversations about it (so that I knew it
wasn’t coming from a “I need everyone to know I’m straight!!!” place) I could get past
that and understand your need for an accommodation.
Just one woman’s response. I’m not speaking for all queer folks here! :-)
Becky
On Feb 9, 2023, at 9:52 AM, Ridge Kennedy via Contra
Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Dear All,
I have thought a lot about the nomenclature issues. I too went from ladies to women and
back to ladies, worked with armbands and bare arms, leaders and followers, larks and
robins, and have lapsed almost accidentally into positional calling out of an abundance of
trying not to say the wrong thing.
Yet, for all the talk about the talk, there remains, for me, a big problem in the actual
dancing.
"Comfort" and "comfortable" and words like that can be found in
abundance in the charters, mission statements, and announcements that dance groups publish
on their websites and read at dances. I'm in full agreement -- anyone who attends a
dance should feel safe and comfortable. If a dance community wants to change the words it
uses in order to achieve that goal, then I must, perforce, support that decision.
Still, I (he, him, his, etc.) personally feel distinctly uncomfortable doing a ballroom
swing with other same-gender dancers.
I've discussed my feelings with other dancers in my area, and I know I am not alone,
both among dancers of my gender and dancers of the opposite gender. Yet, by even raising
the question, I have also been described (not to my face) in very unflattering terms.
About ten thousand years ago, when I first started dancing, there was a commonly accepted
symmetrical swing that was used. It was, in retrospect, a little bit uncomfortable as it
involved reaching the right arm across the other dancer's body and hooking a hand
around the other dancer's torso. In retrospect, not good. A two-hand turn is, in my
mind, not a very acceptable alternative to a ballroom swing. I have seen some folks do
some lively variations with crossed hands and such so that it can work, but I think there
is a better option that I have been encouraging dancers to learn. I call it a Scottish
swing. (John Sweeny includes it in his videos of eleventy-seven ways to swing as a
Northumbrian swing.)
Here's what it looks like. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HWhKWRn_jk>
I like it because I can give a clear signal for the kind of swing that I want to do, I
feel completely comfortable doing it with any dancer, and it allows my swinging partner
and me to enjoy a very satisfactory swing. It's easy to learn. I have even found that
I can teach it to dancers on the fly in the middle of a dance.
Maybe it is not the best option for a symmetrical swing (an alternative to a ballroom
swing). If someone can propose a better alternative, I'll give it a try.
But for all of the concern about words and terminology, it seems to me that the overall
dance community ought to pay attention to this particular aspect of actually dancing.
Sincerely,
Ridge
Ridge Kennedy [Exit 145]
Hey -- I wrote a book! Murder & Miss Austen's Ball.
It's a novel with musical accompaniment. Now that's different.
Read all about it here! <https://www.hedgehoghousebooks.com/>
On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 8:57 AM Gabrielle Taylor via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
As a member of the LGBT community, my view (personal, from talking to others, and from
votes in local contra dances in Western Massachusetts) is it's very good to have a
consistent term that isn't inherently gendered.
After local debate and dance-specific polls, we've been using larks and robins/ravens
here since about 2018, and I think it's been a big improvement over ladies/gents.
Larks and robins are my personal preference, since it's what everyone here is used to,
and I at least don't have enough bird knowledge to get confused about robins or larks
having some inherent gendering. I don't have any cultural stance against positional
calling, but the confusion of "lefts allemande right" seems a lot worse than
learning new terms.
Thanks,
Gabrielle
On Feb 9, 2023, at 13:45, Jim Thaxter via Contra
Callers <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Just a thought, but has anyone checked with the lgbtq community about what terms they
would like to have used?
Another thought, someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the terminology issue had
been discussed thoroughly some time ago and the decision had been made to go with the
birds. I don’t remember seeing or hearing about a general survey sent out to all the CDSS
affiliates or any other general list of dance groups around the country or world vetting
that decision
Personally, I’m exploring positional calling. Just my gut feeling, but I think fewer
people would be challenged by right/left directional calls than by being called bird
names.
Jim Thaxter
Columbia, MO
On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 6:31 AM Amy Cann via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Since no one else has mentioned this, I'll just say that my entire
personal difficulty with birds comes from fairy tales and ornithology.
When we say "robin" we are mostly thinking about that bird with the
"red breast", right? Not something kinda reddish-brownish? That's the
male. In my childhood I read any number of books with
anthropomorphised birds, and Mister Robin Redbreast was male. In a
bunch of the stories there was also small, sweet-singing female lark.
Add to that that in the states the robin is a different bird from in
the UK, and much larger, I've got two good reasons to think of the
robin as being the "male" role. My brain weighs the imagery and
memories against that silly little detail of starting with "R" or
"L"
and defaults obstinately to the exact wrong conclusion every time.
EVERY time. It's somewhat maddening. But "Ravens" was even worse,
because ravens are black and men in formal clothing dress in black, so
I guess things are better now??
Whew. Change is hard.
On 2/9/23, Peghesley via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
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To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net Bree, I’m making the same change as well and am
calling without reference to
role and don’t need bird terms. Louise Siddons’ position is a compelling
one.
Peg Hesley
www.peghesley.com <http://www.peghesley.com/>
Sent from my iPhone using voice recognition
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<mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net> On Feb 8, 2023, at 7:04 PM, Bree Kalb via Contra
Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
I made the same changes Chrissy did and for the same reason. I think it
was 4-5 years ago when I switched from M and W to Gents and Ladies. And
it seems to me that almost all the local callers did the same.
( Now I’m calling without reference to gender or role. Louise Siddons
booklet “Dance the Whole Dance” from CDSS describes well what many of us
are learning to do.)
If it matters, my dance community is in a progressive/liberal area, so
calling styles here might be different than in other places.
Bree Kalb
Carrboro, NC
On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 8:18 PM Jacob or Nancy Bloom via Contra Callers
<contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>
> At the Ralph Page Legacy day last month, Chrissy Fowler did a session in
> which she called dances as she called them at different times in her
> career. In it, she talked about how, at one point, she and other female
> callers were insisting on the term "women" because they weren't
ladies,
> and then several years later they were insisting on the term "ladies"
> because that was understood to be the name of a role.
>
> I can't give a year when it happened, but I do believe I remember a time
> when at least some callers were making it explicitly clear that the terms
> Gents and Ladies referred to roles, and anybody could dance either role.
>
> Jacob
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 2:29 PM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers
> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>
>> I believe it’s in Myrtle Wilhite’s Lullaby of the Swing and other contra
>> dances, tunes, waltzes, and essays (Madison, WI, 1993). I can’t lay my
>> hand on my copy at the moment, but perhaps someone else has one.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tony Parkes
>>
>> Billerica, Mass.
>>
>> www.hands4.com <http://www.hands4.com/>
>>
>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century
>>
>> (available now)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mary Collins <nativedae(a)gmail.com
<mailto:nativedae@gmail.com>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 2:11 PM
>> To: Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu
<mailto:jeff@alum.swarthmore.edu>>
>> Cc: Tony Parkes <tony(a)hands4.com <mailto:tony@hands4.com>>; Joe
Harrington
>> <contradancerjoe(a)gmail.com <mailto:contradancerjoe@gmail.com>>;
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff, me too...if you find it, share please.
>>
>>
>>
>> mary
>>
>> "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who
>> couldn't hear the music." - Nietzsche
>>
>>
>>
>> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about
>> learning to dance in the rain!” ~ unknown
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:58 AM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Aside: does anyone have a copy of the "I am not a lady" essay?
I'd be
>>> interested to read it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:54 AM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers
>>> <contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Joe Harrington wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > When I started dancing in the late 1980s… Callers were taking the
>>>> > revolutionary step of not calling "men" and
"women" but rather using
>>>> > "ladies" and "gents", to signal that switching
roles was ok, since
>>>> > nobody referred to themselves as a "lady" or a
"gent" in casual
>>>> > conversation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Where was this, Joe? And are you talking about contra callers (rather
>>>> than ECD)? I can only speak about the NYC area in the 1960s and early
>>>> ’70s, and New England starting in the late ’60s and continuing to the
>>>> present. In both regions, square/contra callers (contras were a
>>>> subcategory of square dance until around 1975) universally used
>>>> “gents/ladies.” (I believe ECD teachers have always used “men/women,”
>>>> presumably emulating Playford and Cecil Sharp.) AFAIK, northeastern
>>>> callers pretty consistently used “gents/ladies” until some of them
>>>> started to move away from gender-related terms. Tolman and Page’s
>>>> Country Dance Book (1937) uses “gents/ladies,” as do most of the other
>>>> standard American dance books from the 1900s to the 1950s (a few,
>>>> aimed at schoolteachers, use “boys/girls”).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know of no region where callers changed from “men/women” to
>>>> “gents/ladies.” I know that some callers, beginning I think in the
>>>> ’80s, changed from “gents/ladies” to “men/women,” feeling that
>>>> “gentlemen” and “ladies” smacked of classism. (One female caller, in
>>>> an essay titled “I am not a lady,” requested that other callers not
>>>> use her contra compositions if they adhered to “gents/ladies.”) As an
>>>> amateur (= lover) of dance history, I would like to know about past
>>>> changes of which I was unaware.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tony Parkes
>>>>
>>>> Billerica, Mass.
>>>>
>>>> www.hands4.com <http://www.hands4.com/>
>>>>
>>>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century
>>>>
>>>> (available now)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
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