8 Feb
2023
8 Feb
'23
12:20 p.m.
"Callers were taking the revolutionary step of not calling "men" and
"women" but rather using "ladies" and "gents", to signal
that switching
roles was ok"
That sounds really surprising to me:
* Ladies/Gents is much older than the 1980s. For example, here's Walter's
site with recordings of Duke Miller in 1965 using those terms:
http://www.configular.com/duke/ Ex:
http://www.configular.com/duke/tunes/C1_LadyWalpolesReel.mp3. Similarly
Tolman and Page's Country Dance Book from 1935 uses Ladies and Gents. You
do see a range of terms, though, and it's common to see Man/Woman or
Girl/Boy mixed in some, and I bet there are other sources that are
primarily Man/Woman.
* When I started dancing outside of the Boston area in 2006 it was *still*
common that people would react badly to me dancing the Lady role at more
conservative events. I think it's very unlikely that callers at those
events were choosing to call Lady/Gent as a way to signal their support for
anyone dancing any role.
Jeff
On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 11:35 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Back to the terms, I wanted to relate an experiment I
did with the terms,
because I found something different from what I was told I would find. I'm
not advocating a re-opening of the terms can of worms, but I think the
experiment sheds some light on why we think as we do about the terms, and
on how dancers learn.
But first, a way-back reminder. When I started dancing in the late 1980s,
it was explained to me that it was ok to dance the other role, and I
sometimes did, really enjoyed it, and became a much better dancer. Callers
were taking the revolutionary step of not calling "men" and "women"
but
rather using "ladies" and "gents", to signal that switching roles was
ok,
since nobody referred to themselves as a "lady" or a "gent" in
casual
conversation. I guess that didn't stick, and now we have to do it again!
Ok, the experiment. I started calling "for real" in summer 2022 to a
group of nearly all newbies in Orlando. I have always had a hard time with
"larks" and "robins", as I hear the start of "lark" the
same as the start
of "ladies", think, that's not me, and then realize two beats later that
it
is me and I'm late. When I am on the ball, I hear "lark" and think,
"Lark
starts with 'L', which means left. Am I on the left? No..yes! Yes! I'm a
lark". Now, I'm four beats late. What I really wanted to hear was,
"left", not "lark". I talked about it with some pretty famous
callers, who
said it wouldn't work, as people would get confused with the directionals
given for allemandes and such.
Knowing a bit about how the brain processes language in a learning
setting, I thought this through and decided it shouldn't be a problem if I
consistently used dancer-action-direction (say, "Rights allemande left,"
not, "Left allemande, rights"). So, I started teaching that way (straight
substitution for gents and ladies, not positional calling). It worked like
a charm. Everyone understood it and did it. The hardest part was that
some people don't know their left from their right, but in that case
"larks" and "robins" get even worse, because they still boil down to
that,
after the extra step of going from "lark" to "left". Newbies
progressed to
intermediates pretty quickly. I felt quite vindicated.
Except.
Except that some experienced dancers got really messed up by "lefts" and
"rights" and danced worse than when they first started with "larks"
and
"robins". Much worse. Why would the newbies dance anything better than
the experienced dancers? After asking around a bit, I determined that, no
matter what terms you use, you will eventually identify intuitively with a
label - gent, left, lark or lady, right, robin, it doesn't matter - and
won't go through the computation that takes 2-4 beats to derive me or
not-me from a term. BUT, the experienced dancers had already done this for
"left" and "right" in a different way, assigning those words
exclusively to
directionals. When I said, "Lefts allemande right", their left hand was up
and they were already shifting weight to enter a left allemande when
seemingly I countermanded it and they realized that I meant, what? what did
he say? and they're late while they're thinking it through logically. And
they're unhappy, because, by taking them out of their intuition, I had made
them newbies. Worse, in a sense, because they had to UNLEARN something for
which they had a firm intuition and years of practice, which is the hardest
of all mental tasks.
"Lefts" and "rights" are great terms for anyone but an experienced
dancer. Not so much for them. The famous callers were right, for
experienced dancers, who are the majority.
So, I'm now calling "larks" and "robins". And understanding
better how VHS
clobbered Beta...
Interestingly enough, my lefts-rights dancers are picking up larks-robins
pretty fast. There is nothing for them to unlearn.
--jh--
On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 5:14 PM Winston, Alan P. via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi, Allison!
Spitball suggestion about courtesy turns for your group in particular
(not that I’d do it in a regular beginner workshop). Teach them the
courtesy turn hold as a promenade hold (left in left in front, right in
right behind), then do a super-simple mixer (partners promenade in that
hold, still in that hold, forward and back to the center, turn as a couple
with the lark backing and robin going forward, promenade the other
direction, turn as a couple enough to be facing in, forward and back to the
center, face original promenade direction, robins peel off to the lark
behind them and take left in left, right behind, wheeling all the way round
to face promenade direction. (I’m not counting beats - work through and
modify this as needed for the music you’ve got).
I think that gets to a possibly fun-nish dance that teaches the courtesy
turn divorced from right and left through or chain, and has more elastic
timing than a regular contra.. (I don’t have a swing or anything because
I’m really trying to get them used to that courtesy turn hold but only have
to figure it out once per partner. Once they’re used to the hold and the
scoop I think that then teaching chain or r&l thru should be a piece of
cake. You can even turn this into a scatter mixer where you promenade
around and find another couple, r&l t over and back, chain one way, keep
the new partner and scatter around.)
I hope this is helpful. I am just pulling this out of nowhere right now
and haven’t tried it at all, but it seems like it might help in your
particular circumstances and if you think so too, give it a try, modify as
needed.
— Alan
________________________________________
From: Allison Jonjak via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2023 11:40 AM
To: John Sweeney
Cc: contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')
On gentlespoons/ladles, that's the "default" nomenclature set up for
contradb.com--EXPLICITLY BECAUSE it's so ridiculous that it "forces" a
user
to change their dialect to the terms being called at their dance series.
(Larks/robins, ladies/gents, a couple other defaults I don't recall off the
cuff, and any custom term set is supported). We just didn't want to drive
off users by "looking like" we were prescribing one term set or another.
The downside is if you take a screenshot of a dance when you're not logged
in, it gives ladles/gentlespoons... sorry!
I was one who "last heard" that the terms were larks/ravens pre-pandemic,
and have now switched to larks/robins in my local dance series. I'm nervous
about teaching courtesy turns to a group where 0 dancers have experience,
but that's only my hangup to address as a caller. (And I'm just
circumventing it until i gain confidence, which I'm sure I'll work up
soon.) I've had no pushback from my dancers. (The only feedback I've gotten
at a break once was "is larks/ravens so you don't have to call us men and
women?" I nodded. "That's smart!" was the reply.)
On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 1:28 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers <
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailtolto:
contracallers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
I still have great trouble reading dances written with Larks/Ravens – for
me the L means Ladies means the ones on the right. I have to think twice
to understand the notation.
When I am using gendered terms (which many of my groups/customers still
prefer) I would rather use Men than Gents. It has a much clearer sound.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com<mailtolto:
john(a)modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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Pardon brevity; sent by smartphone.
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