On Friday, January 22, 2016, Aahz Maruch via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
> >
> > I'm about to leave this list because I'm so appalled at the amount of
> time
> > spent on this discussion. So many smart, good people: surely we all have
> > something better to do?
>
> Sounds like you're policing what other people choose to spend their time
> on. Oddly enough, I've seen comments like yours countless times when the
> subject lands on sexism, racism, homophobia, and so on. What I find
> especially interesting is that these types of comments are louder when
> it's a subject that isn't "generally recognized" to be hurtful. In my
> own lifetime, I've watched the discussion shift significantly when the
> subject is homophobia, and I currently watch appalled as fatphobia is
> still considered acceptable (with constant deprecatory comments similar
> to yours).
>
> People whose lives are adversely affected by prejudice don't have the
> luxury of walking away from the discussion.
> --
> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
> http://rule6.info/
> <*> <*> <*>
> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
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--
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
I disagree. If it is fair to condemn a word despite widespread ignorance of its racist etymology (such as the very real problem with the verb "gyp"), then the inverse must be true: it is fair to exonerate a word despite widespread ignorance of its non-racist etymology (e.g., niggardly). That a word falsely gets attributed to a category in which it doesn't belong is irrelevant. If two separate meanings/derivations converge to an identically spelled modern word, I don't believe the innocent word (when used in its original context) deserves to be written off. Let us truly abide by what you claim to support: its current use *is* relevant.
> On Jan 21, 2016, at 13:25, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Martha,
>
> Regardless of whether it was derived from Welsh hundreds of years ago, would you say more than 0.1% of dancers know that? Or, do you think 99.9%+ of dancers associate "gypsy" the dance move with the slang for wandering people?
>
> Regardless of its origin, its current use is relevant.
>
> Ron
>
>> On Jan 21, 2016 12:15 PM, "Martha Wild via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> As mentioned, there are many words we use that are even considered impolite but only depending on context. The nickname for Richard, for example. Lots of men proudly use that as their name, but it’s also a really offensive term. The name Randy has other contexts, yet we use it without any problem in the context of someone with that as their name. (Note the use of the plural for the generic singular pronoun, which I’ve done for years, unhappy with he/him for that term and that just sort of started happening). If our word actually came down from Welsh, and has no relationship to the Romani whatsoever, then it would seem even more reason to recognize that it is context dependent and completely divorced from the pejorative use of the unfortunately similar word in other countries.
>> Martha
>>
>>> On Jan 21, 2016, at 5:56 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have contacted Carol and have begun a discussion. I still have several unanswered questions but one thing I did learn is that the Romani have claimed the word and deemed it offensive and feel it should not be used, in any context, in any language. More about why she herself uses the word later. One thing I asked her was about her insistence on the use of a capital G. To me, this would indicate that Gypsy would refer to the ethnicity, while gypsy would have a possibly completely different meaning.
>>>
>>> We know that gipsy/gip was being used in country dances at least in 1909 when Cecil Sharp wrote them down. Two of the three dances in the 1909 book originated in the 1500s, one ECD and one Morris Dance from Scotland. We do not know if they originally used the terms gip/gipsy in the 1500s, but we do know that gip, at least, has another meaning in Welsh (a celtic language) - gaze or glance.
>>>
>>> So, my conversation with Carol is ongoing, and unresolved. But if you feel that a group can claim a word and then claim that it is a slur, there are a lot of other words you should stop using as well.
>>>
>>> Janet
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> What's in a word? As this list points out, it gets confusing.
>>>>
>>>> Like Martha, I stopped using "Ladies," and "Gents," or "Gentlemen," because they are words steeped in class-ism. And after years of being told we live in a classless society, the lie of that became clear.
>>>>
>>>> But, more recently I was approached by a man who felt "Ladies," and "Gents" were roles anyone could play whereas "Men" and "Women" really did refer to what was between our legs, and made it more uncomfortable to switch roles. Also, even though we live in a severely class society, the words "Ladies" and "Gents" don't seem to carry that weight any more.
>>>>
>>>> Then again, in Berkeley we've switched to "gender free," and use "Ravens" and "Larks" now.
>>>>
>>>> This is all to say, those who come to the dance have many differing associations with words. And sometimes it is important that we listen.
>>>>
>>>> Take "He" and "She." We all know that "He" has been the generic pronoun where "She" refers only to women. Since we live in a society dominated by the patriarchal Christian religion, it's clear that using "He" and "Him" generically supports this concept. Many of us, in the sixties and seventies counteracted this male dominance by using "She" and "Her" as the generic pronoun. It was startling how different it feels to switch to those. There are now corners pushing to just use "They" and "Them" for everyone, like we use "you" for both plural and singular. Maybe it will take hold...
>>>>
>>>> But all this is to say, these little words do have an affect on how we think about things.
>>>>
>>>> So now we are thinking about "gypsy." Or, better with capitalization, "Gypsy." Is it derogatory? To some, not all. Is that reason enough to change? Perhaps for some. I've started using "Right Shoulder Turn," and "Left Shoulder Turn." It doesn't slide off the tongue, an isn't as colorful, but it is more descriptive. At Contra Carnivale, Susan Michaels said someone had come up with "Roma-around," or "Romaround.."
>>>>
>>>> So we're all dealing with it, and considering this as:
>>>>
>>>> Some of us are attached to our words, and don't want to loose it. Some of us are vociferous about keeping it. And some of us are searching for a substitute that might work better. Seems about right.
>>>>
>>>> Mostly, I want to suggest, as we struggle with this, consider how our language and word choice does affect others, whether we mean it to or not. As callers, we are in the public eye--granted a small pond of the public--but our words do go out there and cause others to think, too.
>>>>
>>>> What's in a word? A lot.
>>>>
>>>> ~erik hoffman
>>>> oakland, ca
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
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Prelude: This post is tangential to the gypsy discussion and likely
controversial. If you are not interested, delete now. Moderators, if you
feel it is not an appropriate topic for this list tell me and I will cease
any future posts on the matter.
So, let's pretend for a moment that gypsy has been proven to originate from
the term used to refer to the Roma (we all know that I do not believe
this), or that it doesn't matter what it's origin is, the fact that it does
have one meaning that refers to the Roma people is all that matters (we all
know that I also do not believe this). Let us also pretend for a minute
that it doesn't matter that in American English the term has come to mean a
free-spirited traveler. We are going to pretend that gypsy only is a
racial slur against Romani.
First I will point out that Romani (Roma, I have seen both used, not sure
which is "most correct"), and Romani advocates, who feel that the word
Gypsy is a slur, always capitalize the word to enforce that it is a
reference to the ethnicity. So, first of all, if it not capitalized, does
that not mean that it does not refer to the ethnicity (I asked Carol this,
she did not respond). But that is not really what this post is about.
So, this discussion about removing gypsy from our dance lexicon is due to
the fact that the Roma are holding on to their heritage and the use of the
word as a slur against them (yes, I recognize that in some places, the Roma
are still persecuted today). When I have asked Roma or Romani advocates
about the word, the response I usually get is something along the lines of
"well, what if the move was called the jew instead"? Well, I'm not jew, so
I don't really relate to that either. In fact, I one of the least racially
persecuted groups in existence it would seem, although I am female and
blond. But, I digress. Among the discussions, I have been informed that
Gypsy refers to the ethnicity, not the lifestyle and that the practice of
the Romani people to travel was forced upon them. However, I have read
that, in fact, many of the persecutions were just the opposite - forcing
them to settle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Persecutions).
Conversely, the ethnic term can be used as a slur. For example:
jew - someone who is stingy
polish - a stupid person
So, every single person in North America is an immigrant (yes, even the
"Native Americans, although much earlier than others). Every single
person's ancestor who moved to America came to America for a reason. Some
were forced (such as slaves) but many came here to escape what they were
leaving behind and to hopefully provide a better life for their families
and themselves. So, why is it then that so many racial groups who move to
America to escape their history, choose to also hold on to their history?
This is not just Roma, and it is, oddly enough, not all races. Very few
Germans or English in America refer to themselves as Germans or English (in
Cincinnati we have an Oktoberfest every year, owing to the large number of
people of German descent, but for 360 days of the year, these people are
American). If these people moved to America, why are they not just
Americans? Why are they holding on to an ethnic past? When I ask a Roma
why they use the word Gypsy to refer to themselves, the most common answer
I get is "people know the word Gypsy, but do not know what a Roma is". So,
if people do not even know what a Roma is, how can they be persecuting
them? If people who move to America want to be American, why do they hold
on to their ethnicity and continue to be offended by words that refer to
that ethnicity (this is a genuine question, I cannot at all relate to this
and so it makes no sense to me). This is not just the Roma, any group of
people who come to America and yet hold on to their ethnic traditions do
not make a lot of sense to me, especially if they are 2nd, 3rd, 4th or
more generation Americans who have never even been to the place of origin
for their ethnicity.
According to the US Census, for the first time in 2000 a significant number
of people responded to the question about ancestry by stating that they
were American jumped from 12.4 million in 1990 to 20.2 million in 2000 (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ethnicity). In the most recent
census report on the census page (
http://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtm…)
the top groups of identified ancestry in the United States was:
American 20 million
German 15 million (slurs include boche due to the stereotype of germans
being hard-headed, Fritz, Huns meaning savage and ruthless, Jerry, Kraut
from saurkraut, squarehead from the stereotype of the shape of their heads)
English 9 million (slurs include Gringo, Pom, Pommie, etc)
Irish 9 million (bog irish refrerring to a low class Irish, Dogan possibly
from Dugan - an Irish surname, Mick, Paddy - which has been embraced by
Irish even though it was meant to be derogatory, Pikey - an irish travel
like gypsy, tinker - an irish traveler like a gypsy, wigger - also used to
refer to people who might be called "white trash" or "rednecks")
Italian 7 million (slurs include dago, eyetie, greaseball, Guido - an
American Italian, Guinea - referring to the color of their skin, Swamp
Guinea)
European 3 million
Polish 3 million (slurs include Polak, and in fact referring to someone as
polish is often a slur in itself)
Subsaharan African 2.4 million (lots, most of you know)
West Indian 2 million (this is a lot of different nations, so it is hard to
look up)
Scottish 1.7 million (jock - most of us do not consider jocks derogatory,
Sawny or Sandy, Teuchter, and Tinker is also used in Scotland)
Norwegian 1.5 million (surprisingly none were listed)
Scotch-Irish 1.4 million (this is a mixed ancestry, so slurs of both
Scottish and Irish origin could refer to them)
Dutch 1 million (cheesehead, frog - as a stereotype of being marsh
dwellers, Yankee originally referred to Dutch settlers in America,
Russian 1 million (katsap, Moskal, russian pig)
Swedish almost 1 million
(reference for ethnic slurs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs). It is true that most
of these words are not used in the English language, but who is going to
stop have kraut on their sausage because it is an ethnic slur?)
Romani are not reported,
likely grouped as "other", but other sources indicate there are
approximately 1 million Romani in America today. I provide this list to
point out that, with one exception, almost no one on this list is offended
by people calling them by their ethnicity, or terms referring to their
ethnicity and, in fact, more and more people are leaving their ancestry in
the past and accepting that they are just American.
So, why should Roma people be allowed to claim the word gypsy and declare
it a slur against them, when it is very clear that, especially in America,
it is rarely intended to be a slur, since most people just think Roma are
Americans and do not use the word to refer to the Roma people?
And in regards to "how would you feel if ...", if a move was called a blond
because you walked around in a silly, disoriented fashion, I would laugh
and wonder why we have such a chaotic dance move in contra dance - oh
right, those are mixers. If I ever called mixers, I would start saying
"blond with your partner around the room and find another couple", but I
don't, because I hate mixers).
Janet
On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Lindsay Morris via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> I'm about to leave this list because I'm so appalled at the amount of time
> spent on this discussion. So many smart, good people: surely we all have
> something better to do?
>
>
> On Friday, January 22, 2016, via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Honestly, it will be next December when I sing Christmas carols again :-)
>>
>> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:34, Aahz Maruch via Callers <
>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016, via Callers wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I disagree. If it is fair to condemn a word despite widespread
>> >> ignorance of its racist etymology (such as the very real problem
>> >> with the verb "gyp"), then the inverse must be true: it is fair to
>> >> exonerate a word despite widespread ignorance of its non-racist
>> >> etymology (e.g., niggardly). That a word falsely gets attributed to
>> >> a category in which it doesn't belong is irrelevant. If two separate
>> >> meanings/derivations converge to an identically spelled modern word,
>> >> I don't believe the innocent word (when used in its original context)
>> >> deserves to be written off. Let us truly abide by what you claim to
>> >> support: its current use *is* relevant.
>> >
>> > Let me know the next time you use "gay" to mean something roughly
>> similar
>> > to "happy" or "joyful", but for which there is no direct substitute.
>> > Despite my support for queer rights (given that two of my partners are
>> > bisexual, among other reasons), that's the one real loss I still feel.
>> > --
>> > Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
>> http://rule6.info/
>> > <*> <*> <*>
>> > Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Callers mailing list
>> > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>
>
> --
> --------------------
> Lindsay Morris
> CEO, TSMworks
> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
As a couple of you have kindly pointed out, I unintentionally
sent my last message to the entire list. Ooops. I hop I didn't
say anything that will get me too much flak.
As most of you know, in order to avoid bad interactions with
anti-spoofing policies of so service providers, including AOL
and Yahoo
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2141120/yahoo-email-antispoofing-policy-brea…
this list is set up to change senders' addresses from something
like
John Smith <jsmith@...>
to
John Smith via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
I remembered to make sure I used Seth's actual address in my
"To" line, but slipped up and left Neal as
Neal Schlein via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sorry if I've added noise to the discussion.
--Jim
I expect at the time you made the change from "ladies" to "women," very few men would have considered dancing with another man, and those who did would have faced confusion at best, and hostility from some--I speak from my own experience. As that has changed, so has the language. Sorry if you think that's something to sigh about.
Read Weaver
Jamaica Plain, MA
http://lcfd.org
> On Jan 21, 2016, at 2:19 AM, Martha Wild via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Actually, one of the reasons I started using men and women instead of ladies and gents for the different roles years ago is because I’m from the hippie generation - and we fought so hard not to be considered “ladies” any more. “”Lady' is a four letter word” was the expression at the time. I did have women on the floor come up to me and complain about my using the term when I first started calling, and I myself was uncomfortable with the nomenclature. So at that point I switched to calling the roles “men” and “women”. So it came as a surprise to me that now some people object to that as well. Sigh.
> Martha
>
>> On Jan 20, 2016, at 5:40 PM, Lindsay Morris via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>
>> As somebody said: this is political correctness run amuck.
>>
>> <irony>
>> I myself am deeply offended by the term "gentleman". I find it controlling and violent in its supposition that I must behave in certain ways.
>> I hereby request - no, demand! - that all callers remove it from their vocabulary immediately.
>> </irony>
>>
>> --------------------
>> Lindsay Morris
>> CEO, TSMworks
>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
>> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com <mailto:lindsay@tsmworks.com>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:21 PM, Harris Lapiroff via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> Do you all know that we literally received a letter from the woman in question on this very mailing list a few months back requesting that we not use this word? It's in an email from Martha Wild on 11/3/15 with the subject line "[Callers] Fwd: Use of the word "gypsy" in various folk dances - Response from Voice of Roma", but I'll paste it back in here to remind you:
>>
>> From: Carol Silverman <csilverm(a)uoregon.edu <mailto:csilverm@uoregon.edu>>
>> Subject: Re: Use of the word "gypsy" in various folk dances
>> Date: November 3, 2015 7:28:00 PM PST
>> To: Martha Wild <mawild(a)sbcglobal.net <mailto:mawild@sbcglobal.net>>, Voice of Roma <voiceofroma(a)gmail.com <mailto:voiceofroma@gmail.com>>
>> Cc: Petra Gelbart <petragelbart(a)gmail.com <mailto:petragelbart@gmail.com>>
>>
>> Dear Martha,
>> Sani Rifati, President of Voice of Roma forwarded you message to me. Although I am not Romani, I am on the Board of VOR and we do care deeply about the terms used for the people we represent.
>> A large number of Roma (but not all) are offended by the term Gypsy, especially with a small g. To “gyp" someone means to steal and swindle; plus the word connotes a false history— it a short for Egyptian whereas Roma are from India. Roma have faced centuries of discrimination, and today are subject to deportations and racial profiling; this would be an opportunity to teach your community a little about their history.
>>
>> So whatever the history of the dance step, I know that names can be changed by sensitive callers like you. I would urge you to change the names and seize and educational moment!
>> Sincerely, Carol Silverman
>> PS Check the VOR webs page fro my information: http://www.voiceofroma.com/culture/gyp_vs_rom.html <http://www.voiceofroma.com/culture/gyp_vs_rom.html>
>>
>> I assume she uses it on her website and in her writings either because her views have evolved since writing them or because she is referring to categories that others have ascribed to music, arts, and people, not because she endorses its usage (since, obviously, she does not).
>>
>> I don't understand why this is still an issue up for debate when we've received such definitive information, nor do I understand why some of you care so much about defending a term that you have been told is offensive.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:08 PM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> Here is the web page about the speaker, Carol Silverman
>> http://anthropology.uoregon.edu/profile/csilverm/ <http://anthropology.uoregon.edu/profile/csilverm/>
>> Note how freely "gypsy" appears throughout Professor Silverman's page. The word is obvious not at all heinous.
>> One doubts the talk will deal with quixotic squawking about the evil of the word "gypsy" on this and other contra dance forums
>>
>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 <tel:217%20239%205844>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 5:19 PM, Linda Leslie via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes, it does! If you should be there, please take some notes and share with this list. Thanks for telling us about it!
>> Linda
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2016, at 5:12 PM, Roger Hayes via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>
>>> A talk that will be given as part of the Madison Folk Ball next weekend:
>>>
>>> "Global Gypsy: Balkan Romani Music, Appropriation & Representation"
>>> Carol Silverman, Prof. of Cultural Anthropology & Folklore, Univ. of Oregon
>>> Friday Jan 29, Noon - 1:00pm in Room 1335 of Sterling Hall
>>> 475 N. Charter Street, Madison WI 53706
>>>
>>> Sounds interesting, yes?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net <http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net <http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Alan Winston asked (replying to Janet Bertog):
> Where did you find a dance description for Flowers of Edinburgh in the 1500s?
I, too, am curious. I suspect that Alan is asking this question,
as I am, more from an interest in the history of dancing and dance
terminology than for the purpose of deciding what terminology to
use in the future. (To be clear, I believe that both topics--the
history and what to do now--are entirely appropriate for this
list.) Please supply a reference if you have one.
Speaking as someone who claims no formal training or other
qualification as a dance historian, but who is nonetheless an
interested dabbler in dance history, I think that a genuine
16th-century source using "gip" (or "gyp"/"gipsy"/"gypsy"/
"jib"/,,,) as the name of a dance figure would be quite an
interesting find, especially if the source also included some
clue about what the term actually meant at that time. On the
other hand, a 20th-century description of a dance with a "gip"
(or "half gip/gyp/gipsy/..." or "whole gip/...") together with
a vague allusion to a dance of the same title having existed
in the 16th century wouldn't be so exciting.
With a little searching, I turned up various descriptions of
Bampton morris dancing that list half gip[/gyp/...] and whole
gip as common figures and "Flowers of Edinburgh" as one of the
specific dances. Here's just one example:
http://www.tvmm.org.uk/Notes/Bampton.htm
And here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC2QtfnKrB8
Note the whole gips starting about 1:37.
My searching also turned up many references to an RSCDS-style
Scottish dance titled "Flowers of Edinburgh." This site
http://www.scottish-country-dancing-dictionary.com/video/flowers-of-edinbur…
has half a dozen videos of the dance being done by different
groups, plus an animation and a link to dance instructions.
As you can see, this "Flowers of Edinburgh" includes no
"gypsy" figure and bears practically no resemblance to the
morris dance of the same name except that both are done in
some kind of longways set.
I also turned English Country Dance versions, including these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48y_4FU9EFUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWMID3ExAas
The first one lightly resembles the RSCDS version in that it
has a sort of "swing and change" in B2 where the RSCDS version
has a poussette. The one version in the second video is
yet different.
In the absence of further evidence, a 16th-century dance
called "Flowers of Edinburgh", if such existed, might, for
all I knew, have been wildly different from all the versions
I've cited above.
On Jan 21, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> The equivalent of the Welsh word gip is glance or gaze.
That does suggest a tempting etymology for the dance figure.
But, as we know, tempting etymologies sometimes turn out to
lack support (as, for example, in the case of "a la main"
for "allemande"). So, again, if you know of sources from
even as late as the 19th century connecting the Welsh "gip",
meaning glance/gaze with the similarly named morris dance
figure or with "gypsy" as used in ECD and (more recently)
contra dancing, please share the details.
Again, I'm asking out of historical interest, not making
any claim about how the history should or shouldn't affect
callers' choices about terminology today.
Thanks.
--Jim
> On Jan 21, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Alan Winston via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/21/16 10:48 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers wrote:
>> This was my original suggestion (see discussion in November). Then I found gip in Welsh, which seems to fit better except foe one thing. The earliest dance I can find with a gip/gypsy is Flowers of Edinburg from Scotland in the 1500s (note the date precedes the use of the word Gypsy by the English). It doesn't matter though. To many, the word is a slur in one context to some people and so should not be used, no matter what the origin.
>>
> Where did you find a dance description for Flowers of Edinburgh in the 1500s?
>
> -- Alan
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