This is a problem for my wrists, too. It can cause enough pain to bring tears to my eyes so I've taken a direct approach. With a friendly (I hope) smile, I put my opposite hand on the back of the other person's hand & gently push to straighten out the bend. This is often baffling to my co-allemander; the ones who care ask me then or later why I did that. I'm grateful that so many are truly curious and willing to alter the angle. A couple of friends have told me they still have no idea they are bending my wrist until I tell them. I can see that it might be a little trickier for a man to do this with another man....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com>
>Sent: Mar 13, 2012 3:17 PM
>To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>Subject: Re: [Callers] Re Allemande Hold (was Analysis of Stars)
>
>Speaking of allemandes - is there ANY way to teach experienced dancers to not bend their wrists when they allemande? The wrist is supposed to be straight, not bent, as bending can cause pain to the other person's wrist (generally mine). Nowadays when I find a person allemande with a bent wrist I go ahead and keep mine straight and sacrifice a good allemande with weight for protecting my arm and wrist.
>
>As for thumbs, I protect my thumb in an allemande or a wavy line by keeping it close to my hand, not straight up ready to be grasped. I found that by "dancing defensively" in this manner I can protect all my digits and limbs and continue on the joy of dancing longer!
>
>Perry
>
>--- On Tue, 3/13/12, Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>From: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net>
>Subject: Re: [Callers] Re Allemande Hold (was Analysis of Stars)
>To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 3:08 PM
>
>As a dancer my personal solution to the Rory o more situation has been to have an old fashioned allemande grip for the first balance, as I balance away and have a little momentum to help tear the hands apart, I switch to an ECD hold, kind of like what you do for a balance before a swing, then it is only curved fingers, which actually give plenty of oomph to the spin, but also disengage easily. I don't spin out of allemandes as much, maybe because few women give enough connection to do so, in fact there is often no time for such a flourish because the connection is too weak to accelerate the allemande. This has nothing to do with the position of our hands or fingers or thumbs, but more a refusal to engage the whole arm so the presence of their body can be felt. I love a zesty dance weekend where a high proportion of women connect. I think by and large, we all wrap our fingers around the base of the other person's thumb, often enough with our
> thumbs also loosely curled arou
> nd. The only time I recently remember being 'gripped' was by a terrified newbie who seemed to want to hold on in hopes we would all help him get where he needed to be. Although it hurt, I was sorry for his fear and simply slid my thumb straight down. Like catching a falling pencil, it is pretty hard for someone to hold your thumb if you pull straight down.
>Cheers,
>Andrea
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Mar 13, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Ron Nelson <callerman(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> John Sweeny wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, people always used to interlock their thumbs - that is
>>> how I was first taught it many, many years ago.
>>>
>>> But the dancing has changed. What has happened is that
>>> people now like to spin out of Allemandes; and Rory O'Mores are more
>>> prevalent, where you spin out of an Allemande-type hold. If someone has
>>> locked my thumb I can't spin! You say that it is easy to disengage when
>>> the thumbs are interlocked. That is not my experience. I really, really
>>> hate it when people hold on to me so that I can't enjoy the dancing. It
>>> is definitely easier to disengage if the thumbs aren't interlocked.
>>>
>>> Dance styles evolve, and this is an example of a good change
>>> as far as I am concerned.
>>>
>>> Let's all work on getting rid of thumbs from dancing! :-)
>>>
>>
>> Ron Nelson adds:
>>
>> I could not agree more. As one who suffers from arthritis in my hands, I can testify that the thumb is particularly susceptible to abuse and subsequent pain.
>> I try to avoid any grip which might entrap and discomfort.
>>
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On thumbs and allemandes:
A good friend of mine is sensitive to the 'dreaded thumb lock', and has showed me exactly why. He's right. It's AWFUL. His strategy is to keep his thumb beside (n line with) his fingers, everything else is the same in the 'mitten grip'. I've tried it myself, it works great. (And for those who don't believe it re. the thumb lock, get a friend to practice with you. Do the bent thumb allemande and tell them to press down hard with their thumb. Then try to extricate yourself. Ouch.)
This particular thumb-free (or perhaps "thumb-safe") allemande grip is no different than the bent thumb grip. (Thus, I disagree heartily with the FB person Jeff quoted.)
What makes the allemande feel great is the "connection" of the shared muscle tension in upper arms, the position of fingers around base of thumb of the other person's hand, and the straight wrist.
I once heard some great caller point out that you are engaging your upper arm muscle when you allemande - not your shoulder, not your wrist, not your fingers, and definitely not your thumb. Which is to say it's the shared, elastic tension that makes the allemande a great ride.
Chrissy Fowler
Belfast, ME
Hello everyone,
I'm calling for a family dance in a few days with mostly elementary-school-age children with a sprinkling of parental figures. I have a decent program, but I was wondering if any of you have a particularly favorite dance to try with a group like this. I'd like to add something new to my repertoire if possible.
Thanks for any help!
All the best,
Sarah VanNorstrand
Syracuse, NY
Hi Jeff,
Yes, it varies considerably in practice. The thumb serves no
purpose by being underneath. But if it is underneath then it allows the
possibility of gripping. I always teach to put it on top to prevent
gripping.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
From: Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu>
John Sweeney wrote:
>
> There is no grip - the thumb is supposed to be on top along with all
> the fingers.
I'm sure this varies, but that's not the way I've learned it. Dancing in
the Boston area I've always put the thumb under. It's a very lose
'grip',
http://www.cdss.org/elibrary/dart/images/star_plummer.jpg
It's blurry, but I think three of the dancers have their thumbs under
and only the top dancer has their thumb on top.
People have been saying that you don't give weight in box stars, but
they are missing the point. It is not about giving weight, it is about
connection.
I hate the term "giving weight" anyway, it is much too easily
misunderstood and abused.
First, please don't call it a wrist-grip star. There is no grip - the
thumb is supposed to be on top along with all the fingers. There are
lots of other good names: box star, pack-saddle star, wrist-hold star,
wrist-lock star (especially when you have a star for six and it looks
like the lock that sword-dancers make!).
Choreography has changed. Most old dances that have a Star or a Circle
include a second one in the opposite direction. It doesn't matter how
far you travel in the Star Right as long as you travel the same distance
back in the Star Left. But modern choreographers use sequences such as
Circle Left, Star Right. Both moves are in the same direction so you
have to travel two full circles to get back to where you started.
This is much easier if you have connection and can help each other.
Types of star:
1. The bunch of bananas/lump of limp lettuce:
Sadly this is probably the most common type of star. Everyone just
sticks their hand in the middle, possibly grasping some random part of
someone else's hand. Looks a mess, can feel unpleasant, and really
doesn't help with connection!
2. Right Hands Across:
You take a handshake (actually just hooked fingertips) with the person
opposite. This gives good connection (but only for two pairs of people)
and is especially useful if the next move involves the men dropping out
so that the ladies can chain across. Also best if you are in waltz-time
or balancing the star. I don't believe that it is as easy as a box star,
for example you can get fumbling as you decide which pair of hands is on
top, or exactly which hold you are going for.
But the biggest failure of the Hands Across star is the lack of
connection between the couples. If the star needs to go faster to meet
the demands of modern choreography then there is nothing you can do
about it - if you accelerate you can affect the person across from you,
but you both just crash into the backs of the slower moving pair.
3. Palm Star:
(From Callerlab) "Place all hands together with fingers pointing up and
thumbs closed gently over the back of the adjacent dancer's hand to
provide a degree of stabilization. Arms should be bent slightly so that
the height of the handgrip will be at an average eye level."
Very pretty, but absolutely no use whatsoever for connection.
And I really don't like the bit about thumbs. I dance dozens of
different dance styles and have never ever found any circumstance in
dancing where you should use your thumb. Thumbs hurt and prevent people
letting go (I have seen dancers get their arms wrenched in a Grand Right
& Left because the person they just passed won't let go - they shouldn't
be holding on in the first place!).
4. Box Star
Each person hooks their hand (thumbs on top with the fingers) over the
wrist of the person in front. Now we have connection between all four
people.
Once people have learnt this it is by far the easiest good star to make
- you start walking and place your hand in a pre-defined position with
no question as to where it is supposed to be. If you are coming out of
a Ladies' Chain or a Right & Left Through then the man just moves his
hand to the lady's wrist and you have half a star before you even start
the move.
But the connection is the key - you are linked together so that you move
at the same speed. If someone realises that the star needs to move
faster then they can accelerate, helping the person behind, who just by
the connection is automatically helping the person behind them, and the
person behind them, and the person behind them - oh! that's you! It is
all one - you share the energy and you get to your destination together
and on time. Beautiful!
If you want to read more about connection see:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#connection
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
I agree with the previous posts. The "good" dancer will adapt to the conditions. I find that when dancing with an experienced dancer who maintains a good frame and gives good weight the buzz-step is the most satisfying swing (with the right partner, nirvana) If I am swinging with a partner who gives too much or too little weight, the walking swing is more comfortable, allowing me to complete my swing on time and stay on my feet.
Donna Calhoun
On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:00 PM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote:
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:36:44 -0400
> From: John W Gintell <john(a)gintell.org>
> To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
> Subject: Re: [Callers] American with Style
> Message-ID: <10176864-3A9D-4F00-893C-083973EDB3DC(a)gintell.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 10:08:08 -0400
>> From: Bronwyn Woods <woods.bronwyn(a)googlemail.com>
>> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Callers] American with Style
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAC+nW6+1u7uAcbJ_FZz6zEhBY=gFRF4MxHOVhcmu5SfZTjhcOA(a)mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>>>> I'd like to see the phrase "good contra dancers use a buzz-step swing"
>>>> changed--I'd say really good contra dancers sometimes use a buzz step
>>>> and sometimes use a walking step, depending on the choreography or
>>>> music; medium-good contra dancers use a buzz step for all swings.
>>>
>>>
>>> Would other people like to comment on that one?
>>
>> Most (but not all) people I've seen either use the buzz step or the
>> walking step rather than switching between them. But some of my very
>> favorite partners use a walking swing. If they dance with a nice
>> smooth swing, I often can't tell the difference when I'm dancing with
>> them unless I look at their feet. I would be very hesitant to say
>> that "good contra dancers use a buzz step". It is true, at least
>> where I dance, that _most_ dancers use the buzz step.
>>
>> -Bronwyn
>
> I'm an advocate of promoting a walking swing to beginners. It helps cure the tendency for new dancers to think you have to bob up and down. Also then they don't have to think about it at all and eye contact with their partner is a bit easier.
>
> John
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:43:48 -0400
> From: "Bree Kalb" <bree(a)mindspring.com>
> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] American with Style
> Message-ID: <AC252987060940C38A7FD80E9A5C3259@BreeHomeLaptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> I would suggest saying "most" contra dancers" rather than "good." I think
> good contra dancers adjust to the person with whom they are swinging. I
> agree with David that one can do a walking swing while the other does a buzz
> step but I often switch to a walking swing to match my partner or neighbor.
>
> Bree Kalb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Hume
> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 3:42 AM
> To: Caller's discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Callers] American with Style
>
> On 11/03/2012 05:41, Read Weaver wrote:
>> I'd like to see the phrase "good contra dancers use a buzz-step swing"
>> changed--I'd say really good contra dancers sometimes use a buzz step
>> and sometimes use a walking step, depending on the choreography or
>> music; medium-good contra dancers use a buzz step for all swings.
>
> Would other people like to comment on that one?
>
>
> Colin Hume
>
> E-mail: colin(a)colinhume.com Website: http://www.colinhume.com
>
> End of Callers Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19
> ***************************************
I ran a workshop on "American with Style" on Sunday and I've now put the
notes on my website at
http://www.colinhume.com/dtastyle.htm
I'd be interested to know what people think. Just bear in mind that
it's aimed at dancers in England, so don't give comments like "Everybody
knows that"!
Colin Hume
-----
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> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 10:08:08 -0400
> From: Bronwyn Woods <woods.bronwyn(a)googlemail.com>
> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] American with Style
> Message-ID:
> <CAC+nW6+1u7uAcbJ_FZz6zEhBY=gFRF4MxHOVhcmu5SfZTjhcOA(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>>> I'd like to see the phrase "good contra dancers use a buzz-step swing"
>>> changed--I'd say really good contra dancers sometimes use a buzz step
>>> and sometimes use a walking step, depending on the choreography or
>>> music; medium-good contra dancers use a buzz step for all swings.
>>
>>
>> Would other people like to comment on that one?
>
> Most (but not all) people I've seen either use the buzz step or the
> walking step rather than switching between them. But some of my very
> favorite partners use a walking swing. If they dance with a nice
> smooth swing, I often can't tell the difference when I'm dancing with
> them unless I look at their feet. I would be very hesitant to say
> that "good contra dancers use a buzz step". It is true, at least
> where I dance, that _most_ dancers use the buzz step.
>
> -Bronwyn
I'm an advocate of promoting a walking swing to beginners. It helps cure the tendency for new dancers to think you have to bob up and down. Also then they don't have to think about it at all and eye contact with their partner is a bit easier.
John
Michael wrote: "... The way to swing..." and went on to describe a buzz step swing.
In my opinion, this is one way to swing, not _the_ way to swing. A walking swing
is traditional in parts of the country-- the southern Appalachians-- for example
and that carries over to many contra dancers in that region. Sure, the buzz step
is the norm in most modern urban contra settings, but it's possible to have a
great time (and to be a fine dancer) without utilizing it.
A walking swing is also, IMHO, far more comfortable when a band is playing very
fast.
As a side note, it works just fine to have one dancer doing a walking swing while
the partner is doing a buzz step.
David Milltone
Lebanon, NH
P.S. And then there are communities with rich square dance traditions-- e.g.,
Missouri and the Ozark region of Arkansas-- where dancers are continually doing
a lively jigging step to music played at very fast-- e.g., 140 beats per minute--
tempo. Amazing to watch...
I was told that 120 bpm feels good because it is the natural speed that
we walk at - it is a really good tempo for other dance styles that use a
smooth walk as well.
Going up to around 125 for the occasional dance is OK.
Likewise an occasional dance at 106 is good as long as you have really
good music that makes you want to dance - a good example is Wild
Asparagus - On The Danforth (from "Live At The Guiding Star Grange").
But mostly 114 - 120 works really well.
I keep a stopwatch in my pocket, but only time six beats - press on 1,
count "and 2 and 3 and 4" - press on 4. If the stopwatch shows 3 seconds
then it is 120 bpm (a habit formed from using rowing stopwatches to
count strokes per minute when I was coaching - the old rowing
stopwatches were actually calibrated in SPM rather than in seconds).
2.90 = 124
2.95 = 122
3.00 = 120
3.05 = 118
3.10 = 116
3.15 = 114
3.20 = 113
3.25 = 111
3.30 = 109
Subject to greater error due to the short duration, but usually accurate
enough, especially if you take a couple of samples.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
