Until very recently, I thought "it is always the caller's fault". The problem with absolutes like "always" is that a counterexample jumps up and hits you in the face.
I like (and use) the tactics for putting out fires that others recommended: Beef up the calling (earlier, more directional, more complete), NOT calling to the late group, etc. Not mentioned here yet is the old "manual intervention". I use a wireless mic, and that allows me to move around, hopefully addressing issues before they erupt in flames, but also providing an in-your-face hard-to-ignore knowledgeable guide post.
If you ever read Asimov's Foundation Trilogy, you'll remember that the science of psychohistory which allowed practitioners to essentially predict the future of civilizations was compromised by a random mutation ("The Mule"). I was thinking of that a few Saturdays ago when I was calling for a challenging dance. I don't mean challenging to the dancers: I mean challenging to me to call! It was a regular dance series, and the "regulars" weren't there, and there were lots of new dancers. That's OK with me; I do that all the time. I found myself presenting pretty easy stuff, and astonishingly, I needed to make it easier as the evening went on. I was running out of easier-than-dead-easy material. That's also OK -- I know how to write dances on the fly. What I was not prepared for was a concentration of dancers that needed special handling.
One dancer, an older fellow who had been dancing for some time, was literally moving in slow motion, and in a time delay so that the people around him were sucked into his rift in the time-space continuum. Another dancer, a newcomer who seemed to "get it" initially, began careening in random directions at high speed, with a great big smile on her face. Another new gentleman, also after seemingly "getting it", started to regress to periods of non-movement. I moved right next to him and said "right hand star", putting my own hand out to model the action. He just stood there and repeated "right hand star".
This made me think about, and question, the assumption that the caller is always at fault. Perhaps that is a fine mental state to be in (that is, not blaming the dancers), but you know, the conduct of the evening is not, and cannot be entirely one person's responsibility. A dance is like a machine with many moving parts, and they need to be functioning in expected ways for a smooth experience. Mistakes? They are part of what the machine does. I have more trouble when communication that has worked before begins to fail, when lessons learned are forgotten, and when other unexpected behaviors arise.
So this was one of the least fun, least rewarding gigs in my 30 years of calling. I chalk it up to an unfortunate confluence of factors likely not to be repeated for another 30 years.
There are never fires in the hall--only in your own mind. If there
is trouble anywhere in the hall it is because you have screwed
up...somewhere. Whether it be programming, teaching, or calling the
fault is your own. The caller should take full responsibility for the gaff.
I point this out because the question assumes that there is trouble
in one of the lines. This assumption will not help and will only
lead to even more trouble.
When I see confused dancers anywhere in the hall the best tactic I
have ever used, or seen used, is to begin calling clearly, precisely,
and with enthusiasm to the entire hall. Call in perfect time with
the music, enunciate clearly, and use effective word order. I try to
avoid even looking in the direction of the confused dancers. It is
better to look at dancers who are dancing well and use your
peripheral vision to monitor the rest of the hall. (If you are lucky
the confused dancers will assume that others in the hall are also
confused and this will help to put them at ease.)
Never direct any instruction or call to a specific group or
area. Any emphasis or punctuation should be directed to the entire
hall. This will avoid confusion and make you look more
professional. If more than a few dancers are confused it is
sometimes possible to hold the entire hall at the starting position
and start them dancing again when the music comes around.
If this does not work, end the dance and apologize. This will give
the impression that you know what went wrong and encourage
confidence. Don't use too many words. (Please don't explain!) You
might also compliment all of the dancers for adapting well in spite
of your gaff. Give clear instructions, (such as whether to keep the
same partner, to form new sets, or to go back to your starting position.)
This is the way I prefer callers behave when they screw up.
Just a thought,
Greg McKenzie
************
Jo wrote:
>I'd love to hear from some of you, about how (and when?) to fix contra
>lines that have broken down. What are your favorite strategies?
>
>If one line has broken down, it's easy to stop the music, do one more
>walk through, and start up again. Even with two lines this can work
>pretty well. And you don't even have to stop the music - I've seen
>callers get everyone organized and improper again (or whatever
>formation), while the music is still going.
>
>What if there are three or more lines and one doesn't work?
>
>Do you ever go to a different dance? Do you keep trying with the
>current one?
>
>Thanks very much.
>
>Jo Mortland
>Chicago
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Callers mailing list
>Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
Kudos to Greg, that's exactly what I do. If I see a troubled line, I
turn and look at the best group I can with the best timing and I call
clearly, precisely, and in good time for the dancers to hear and
prepare for what's next. If there's a down the hall I instruct the
turn a trifle early so they get back in good time for any cast, etc.,
adding in small points such as "face your partner and...." Sometimes
even the order of the instruction helps - for example "right-hand
star" might be more helpful in some cases than "star right" if the
hand is an issue for some reason, or vice versa if they are having
trouble remembering that this is a star and not a right allemande in
the same dance. Usually this irons out the problem before it gets too
entrenched.
Oh, yes, and it's always the caller's responsibility. I have seen
other callers get irritated at the dancers for the dance falling
apart, and the negative impact that had on the dancers and the
dancing was noticeable. A good lesson in how not to call. And yes,
sometimes, inside, you know that that show-off dancer who didn't pay
attention in the walk-through didn't get back to where they should
have been after swinging when it wasn't their turn and therefore
confused the poor newcomers, who wandered off into outer space, etc.
etc., but you just can't let that affect you or the dance if you want
everyone to enjoy themselves. Deep breath and go on.
Martha Wild
San Diego
On Apr 13, 2010, at 7:57 AM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote:
> Send Callers mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Putting Out Fires (Mortland, Jo)
> 2. Re: Putting Out Fires (Donald Primrose)
> 3. Re: Putting Out Fires (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)
> 4. Re: Putting Out Fires (Greg McKenzie)
> 5. Re: Putting Out Fires (Katy Heine)
> 6. Re: Putting Out Fires (Lewis Land)
> 7. Re: Putting Out Fires (Mortland, Jo)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:35:54 -0500
> From: "Mortland, Jo" <j-mortland(a)neiu.edu>
> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Putting Out Fires
> Message-ID:
> <9B0B0B8FF2328E48930D4B6273C1B261132CF666(a)EXNODE2.univ.neiu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> I'd love to hear from some of you, about how (and when?) to fix contra
> lines that have broken down. What are your favorite strategies?
>
> If one line has broken down, it's easy to stop the music, do one more
> walk through, and start up again. Even with two lines this can work
> pretty well. And you don't even have to stop the music - I've seen
> callers get everyone organized and improper again (or whatever
> formation), while the music is still going.
>
> What if there are three or more lines and one doesn't work?
>
> Do you ever go to a different dance? Do you keep trying with the
> current one?
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Jo Mortland
> Chicago
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:04:45 -0400
> From: Donald Primrose <limerickfarm(a)gmail.com>
> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Putting Out Fires
> Message-ID:
> <l2r1bf75db1004121304pe1c89700td067e913803c8990(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello Jo,
> I announced one day that the next dance was new to all of us, hence
> it being
> written/inspired on the way to the dance. All four lines had no
> clue during the walk through X3 try's (something I do not do). So
> I took
> the card and announced that it was not going to happen and tossed
> the card
> over my shoulder and proclaimed we would dance something everyone
> knew and
> without further ado started the music and proceeded without a walk-
> thru. I
> called the same dance that I discarded and it worked absolute. It
> could be
> the music or it could be psychological.
>
> When one or more lines break down during a dance, find a place they
> can
> locate.. lines or partner or neighbor swing on the side and keep
> them there
> until the call comes back around.. and now..
>
> Never and I have seen it tried, run a line independently from the hall
> trying to play catch-up with the hall. It further confuses everyone.
>
> Don Primrose
> Nelson, NH
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Mortland, Jo <j-mortland(a)neiu.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I'd love to hear from some of you, about how (and when?) to fix
>> contra
>> lines that have broken down. What are your favorite strategies?
>>
>> If one line has broken down, it's easy to stop the music, do one more
>> walk through, and start up again. Even with two lines this can work
>> pretty well. And you don't even have to stop the music - I've seen
>> callers get everyone organized and improper again (or whatever
>> formation), while the music is still going.
>>
>> What if there are three or more lines and one doesn't work?
>>
>> Do you ever go to a different dance? Do you keep trying with the
>> current one?
>>
>> Thanks very much.
>>
>> Jo Mortland
>> Chicago
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:06:38 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
> <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu>
> To: "Mortland, Jo" <j-mortland(a)neiu.edu>
> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Putting Out Fires
> Message-ID: <01NLV6U4LBS4A4ZO9O(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
>
> Jo wrote:
>
>> I'd love to hear from some of you, about how (and when?) to fix
>> contra
>> lines that have broken down. What are your favorite strategies?
>
>> If one line has broken down, it's easy to stop the music, do one more
>> walk through, and start up again. Even with two lines this can work
>> pretty well. And you don't even have to stop the music - I've seen
>> callers get everyone organized and improper again (or whatever
>> formation), while the music is still going.
>
>> What if there are three or more lines and one doesn't work?
>
>> Do you ever go to a different dance? Do you keep trying with the
>> current one?
>
>
> It depends.
>
> Has the dance run long enough that you can just call it done and
> move on to the
> next thing? If so, good, do that. Sometimes dancers zoning out
> and screwing
> up is a sign the dance has run long enough already.
>
> Why did it break down? Is it because two couples who didn't really
> get it were
> brought together by progression and are now scrambled (in which
> case you just
> need to get them moved on to the next couples who do get it - which
> you
> probably want to do from the floor rather than over the mic,
> because it
> confuses everybody else, and also because they may not be able to
> process your
> verbal input) or because the floor really doesn't have it? If it's
> the whole
> room, you need to assess what the problem is - is there some tricky
> bit that
> isn't happening; did you call the dance wrong? - then another
> walkthrough may
> do the trick. If you've gotten the wrong sequence into their
> bones, then drop
> it and move on.
>
> If you do do another walkthrough, it's a good time to emphasize the
> simple
> recovery procedure of progressing one place and waiting for the
> music to come
> around again (unless, of course, it's one of those action-outside-
> the-set
> dances, which may be more complicated).
>
> Sometimes the first time through is really rocky, but by the second
> time
> through the floor has it - you don't win anything by stopping and
> doing another
> whole walkthrough in those cases.
>
>
> Alan Winston
> SF Bay Area
>
> --
> ======================================================================
> =========
> Alan Winston --- WINSTON(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone:
> 650/926-3056
> Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park
> CA 94025
> ======================================================================
> =========
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:18:19 -0700
> From: Greg McKenzie <gregmck(a)earthlink.net>
> To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Putting Out Fires
> Message-ID: <E1O1Ulo-0001E5-FG(a)elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>
> There are never fires in the hall--only in your own mind. If there
> is trouble anywhere in the hall it is because you have screwed
> up...somewhere. Whether it be programming, teaching, or calling the
> fault is your own. The caller should take full responsibility for
> the gaff.
>
> I point this out because the question assumes that there is trouble
> in one of the lines. This assumption will not help and will only
> lead to even more trouble.
>
> When I see confused dancers anywhere in the hall the best tactic I
> have ever used, or seen used, is to begin calling clearly, precisely,
> and with enthusiasm to the entire hall. Call in perfect time with
> the music, enunciate clearly, and use effective word order. I try to
> avoid even looking in the direction of the confused dancers. It is
> better to look at dancers who are dancing well and use your
> peripheral vision to monitor the rest of the hall. (If you are lucky
> the confused dancers will assume that others in the hall are also
> confused and this will help to put them at ease.)
>
> Never direct any instruction or call to a specific group or
> area. Any emphasis or punctuation should be directed to the entire
> hall. This will avoid confusion and make you look more
> professional. If more than a few dancers are confused it is
> sometimes possible to hold the entire hall at the starting position
> and start them dancing again when the music comes around.
>
> If this does not work, end the dance and apologize. This will give
> the impression that you know what went wrong and encourage
> confidence. Don't use too many words. (Please don't explain!) You
> might also compliment all of the dancers for adapting well in spite
> of your gaff. Give clear instructions, (such as whether to keep the
> same partner, to form new sets, or to go back to your starting
> position.)
>
> This is the way I prefer callers behave when they screw up.
>
> Just a thought,
> Greg McKenzie
>
> ************
>
> Jo wrote:
>> I'd love to hear from some of you, about how (and when?) to fix
>> contra
>> lines that have broken down. What are your favorite strategies?
>>
>> If one line has broken down, it's easy to stop the music, do one more
>> walk through, and start up again. Even with two lines this can work
>> pretty well. And you don't even have to stop the music - I've seen
>> callers get everyone organized and improper again (or whatever
>> formation), while the music is still going.
>>
>> What if there are three or more lines and one doesn't work?
>>
>> Do you ever go to a different dance? Do you keep trying with the
>> current one?
>>
>> Thanks very much.
>>
>> Jo Mortland
>> Chicago
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:13:52 -0400
> From: "Katy Heine" <kheine(a)twcny.rr.com>
> To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Putting Out Fires
> Message-ID: <C06AEBE06FD2469791979D618B3056C4@stewart>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hear, hear! This puts me in mind of my first callers' workshop more
> than 20
> years ago at Ashokan, when Steve Zakon-Anderson said something
> like, "If
> something goes wrong, it's not the dancers' fault, and it's not the
> musicians' fault; it's your fault." His point was that we're there
> to ensure
> that everyone has the best time possible, given the skill and
> ability of
> those present. It's our job to program and teach appropriately for the
> circumstances, and if a dance fails, it's because we've failed to
> do our job
> well.
>
> I was impressed with the humility expressed in this idea, and all
> these
> years later I'm still guided by it as I'm navigating through an
> evening.
> We're not hired to dazzle the hottest dancers with the complexity
> of our
> choreography; we're there to make sure that the dancers succeed,
> that we
> build community, and that everyone leaves smiling.
>
> --Katy Heine
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
> [mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Greg McKenzie
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 9:18 PM
> To: Caller's discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Putting Out Fires
>
>
> There are never fires in the hall--only in your own mind. If there
> is trouble anywhere in the hall it is because you have screwed
> up...somewhere. Whether it be programming, teaching, or calling the
> fault is your own. The caller should take full responsibility for
> the gaff.
>
> I point this out because the question assumes that there is trouble
> in one of the lines. This assumption will not help and will only
> lead to even more trouble.
>
> When I see confused dancers anywhere in the hall the best tactic I
> have ever used, or seen used, is to begin calling clearly, precisely,
> and with enthusiasm to the entire hall. Call in perfect time with
> the music, enunciate clearly, and use effective word order. I try to
> avoid even looking in the direction of the confused dancers. It is
> better to look at dancers who are dancing well and use your
> peripheral vision to monitor the rest of the hall. (If you are lucky
> the confused dancers will assume that others in the hall are also
> confused and this will help to put them at ease.)
>
> Never direct any instruction or call to a specific group or
> area. Any emphasis or punctuation should be directed to the entire
> hall. This will avoid confusion and make you look more
> professional. If more than a few dancers are confused it is
> sometimes possible to hold the entire hall at the starting position
> and start them dancing again when the music comes around.
>
> If this does not work, end the dance and apologize. This will give
> the impression that you know what went wrong and encourage
> confidence. Don't use too many words. (Please don't explain!) You
> might also compliment all of the dancers for adapting well in spite
> of your gaff. Give clear instructions, (such as whether to keep the
> same partner, to form new sets, or to go back to your starting
> position.)
>
> This is the way I prefer callers behave when they screw up.
>
> Just a thought,
> Greg McKenzie
>
> ************
>
> Jo wrote:
>> I'd love to hear from some of you, about how (and when?) to fix
>> contra
>> lines that have broken down. What are your favorite strategies?
>>
>> If one line has broken down, it's easy to stop the music, do one more
>> walk through, and start up again. Even with two lines this can work
>> pretty well. And you don't even have to stop the music - I've seen
>> callers get everyone organized and improper again (or whatever
>> formation), while the music is still going.
>>
>> What if there are three or more lines and one doesn't work?
>>
>> Do you ever go to a different dance? Do you keep trying with the
>> current one?
>>
>> Thanks very much.
>>
>> Jo Mortland
>> Chicago
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:09:08 -0600
> From: Lewis Land <lewisland(a)windstream.net>
> To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Putting Out Fires
> Message-ID: <4BC47B04.4090808(a)windstream.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> When I'm doing the newcomers instruction, or instruction at the first
> dance of the evening, and it's obvious that there are more than the
> usual number of novice dancers in the crowd, I'll tell them this: You
> know how, when you're doing couples dancing, like a waltz or swing,
> and
> something goes wrong or your timing is off, it's always the guy's
> fault?
> Even when it's not really the guy's fault, it's still his fault. Well,
> contra is community dancing, so when something goes wrong it's always
> the /caller's/ fault. Even when it's not my fault, it's still "my
> fault". This usually gets a laugh and makes the newcomers a little
> less
> self-conscious about making mistakes.
>
> On those rare occasions when things get so out of hand that I have to
> stop the music and start over, I apologize to the dancers for having
> chosen a dance that didn't work for them, and pull out a back-up dance
> that I've called successfully many times before. A few weeks ago I
> tried
> calling, for the first time, a double-progression becket with
> petronella
> twirls, and one of the lines totally fell apart. Fortunately I had
> another dance in reserve, also a becket with petronella twirls,
> that I'd
> called many times to this group, and it worked fine. Because I often
> have lots of inexperienced dancers to contend with, I always hold a
> few
> simple backup dances in my pocket. I like to challenge myself by
> calling
> new and interesting dances, but I find that it's most satisfying when
> all the dancers are having a great time and are genuinely engaged
> in the
> dance, even if all you're calling are dances like Broken Sixpence.
> -Lewis Land
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:57:20 -0500
> From: "Mortland, Jo" <j-mortland(a)neiu.edu>
> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Putting Out Fires
> Message-ID:
> <9B0B0B8FF2328E48930D4B6273C1B261132CF66C(a)EXNODE2.univ.neiu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> The reason I asked this question is that one of our newer callers, who
> is quite competent now, asked me what else she could do to get better.
> She wanted to know if there was something she could "work on". She is
> already doing so well, I couldn't think of much else to offer.
>
> That is what prompted my question, and thank you to all who have
> responded!
>
> Jo Mortland
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
>
> End of Callers Digest, Vol 68, Issue 10
> ***************************************
I recently had the following exchange on a different list with Michael
Shapiro (guitarist with U4):
Michael wrote:
>>> U4 just played the SwingShift weekend in Lexington/Berea. The caller was
Barbara Groh. She did something that I think most callers should do, but I
haven't seen before. After the sets were formed and people had done the hand
four, she then broke up the beginners sets that had formed at the end of the
lines. She asked then to move forward and intersperse themselves with the
more advanced dancers (so that they were more toward the beggining of the
line and the foursomes were not all beginners).
She was also good at letting the music be heard ...
I wrote:
>> Regarding the caller asking sets to reform in order to spread the less
experienced dancers throughout the hall, much tact is required. Generally,
callers strive to avoid calling attention to particular dancers other than
when asking people to watch a demonstration, but asking people to change
sets can have the effect of making them feel like there is attention on
them. In addition, newish dancers want to dance with people they know, even
if those friends may also be newish dancers.
>> Speaking to the entire crowd, I do encourage experienced dancers to share
their experience by asking someone they've never met to dance at least once
in the evening, and praise the community for being so welcoming to newcomer
dancers. So while I might be thinking "let's break up this clump of
confusion," it would not be good to say something that draws attention to
"you people right here."
>> I have asked, off mic, for a set of experienced dancers to offer to
repartner with a set of inexperienced dancers down the line.
To this list, I ask:
I'd be interested in the wording that Barbara Groh used (which I'm assuming
was quite gentle). I'm also guessing other callers on this list have
developed tactful ways to address this issue.
Thanks,
Jerome
--
Jerome Grisanti
660-528-0858
http://www.jeromegrisanti.com
Question: if you compose a dance, how do you find out if it has already been composed by somebody else?
Cheers
Jeanette
The piano - 88 little mistakes waiting to happen; Peter Barnes
Hi,
Does anyone have a copy of Daphne's Becket. I think it is by John
Gallagher. I have looked in several sources and haven't found it.
Thanks in advance.
Andrea Woodall
Bev wrote:
"Greg's point (assuming that I've understood it correctly) about the health
care system in the US potentially contributing to the litigious behavior of
Americans, is an interesting one that I think is valid."
I would use the word "system" with caution regarding health care in this country. In the USA suing after an accident is too often a necessity, not an option. Medical expenses here are the major cause of bankruptcy. And experience shows that every health care system--no matter where, or how excellent--will get lots of complaints. This is true even for universal, single-payer systems like Canada's. Wait times are a form of rationing. Here in the USA the very wealthy get excellent health care. For the rest of us, health care is severely rationed and wait times can be extensive. Health care is a pay-to-play game here.
Just a thought,
Greg
>Message: 2
>Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 12:00:51 -0500
>From: Martha Edwards <meedwards(a)westendweb.com>
>
>But it's not only Canada that has nice people.
>
>Hmph.
<chuckle> Oh geez Martha! You wanna take this personally?? You go gurl.
Perhaps you might re-read my earlier posts. At no point did I even remotely
suggest that a) only Canada had nice people or b) there weren't nice people
in the US?!?! All of my American friends are much more than nice. Sheesh....
The topic of caller insurance has come up for discussion on this list at
least 3 times since Chris and Seth created it back in.... how long ago was
that now? 2004? My recollection is that every time it's come up, people have
posted stories where someone considered suing or did sue or someone sued on
their behalf, as happened in this thread. They've never been Canadian
stories, and yes that may purely be a function of the low percentage of
Canadians participating on this list. But every time this comes up it makes
me anxious about calling in the US and I poke around trying to figure out
how to protect myself against the 1 in a million chance that something might
actually happen.
Greg's point (assuming that I've understood it correctly) about the health
care system in the US potentially contributing to the litigious behavior of
Americans, is an interesting one that I think is valid. All I'll say about
health care is that had Ron's story happened here, the woman with the gash
on her head would have been waiting an excruciatingly long time in an ER in
Toronto, likely would have given up and driven the 1.5 hours to Buffalo NY
to have it attended to there! By the sounds of it, she probably would have
sued the ER in Toronto too...!
I really appreciate both David and Dave posting stories about situations
that could have progressed to a litigious state, but didn't. Particularly
Dave's. I believe that the majority of people have a sense of personal
responsibility and no fault accidents. To your questions Dave, I currently
have insurance to cover personal injury to me while travelling in the US.
But when I investigated the first time caller insurance came up, I couldn't
find a carrier that would cover me for a personal injury that might happen
to someone else at an event that I was calling. The carriers that I talked
to at the time said that if the injury to the other person happened without
my personal physical involvement/contact (meaning I didn't hit them, crash
into them, push them etc.), I wasn't liable. Potentially things have changed
since and I need to investigate again.
Similar to Dave's group and I'm sure all others, TCD pays insurance to the
church where we hold our regular dances. The Anglican Church here has a
standard insurance policy for groups that use their sites/facilities
covering property damage and general liability. It's not specific to dancing
as it covers all activities on the premises. If a dancer got hurt in the
hall, they could sue the church but the policy would cover that. I just
don't see a clear path to suing the caller. But Dave, better check with CDSS
before ya get yourself hired here in Toronto, just to be sure :-)
My take away from this thread is the reminder that in absence of caller's
insurance, I need to be particularly vigilant about looking at venues I work
in for potential hazards, and mention them to the crowd early and often. Its
best practice regardless of country or insurance and I like to think that I
already do it, perhaps not with such a critical eye. I'm calling at a dance
weekend in OH in the summer at a venue with an obvious hazard. It has a row
of poles down the centre of the hall. One might think that such an obvious
hazard might not need mentioning but I intend to do it. And you can bet your
dance shoes that I'll be looking for the fire extinguishers!
Bev
-----Original Message-----
From: The Witful Turnip [mailto:wturnip@sympatico.ca]
Sent: April 4, 2010 7:48 PM
To: 'callers(a)sharedweight.net'
Subject: RE: Caller Insurance
One last point of clarification about my own comment below:
>I'm calling at a dance weekend in OH in the summer at a venue with an
>obvious hazard. It has a row of poles down the centre of the hall. One
>might think that such an obvious hazard might not need mentioning but I
>intend to do it.
The organizers of this weekend had already begun planning to protect against
this hazard when they picked the venue. I have absolutely no doubt that they
will address it as best as they possibly can. My reminding people to be
careful would be in addition to their conscientious planning. I don't want
anyone to think that they hadn't considered the problem.
Bev
Bev wrote:
>Not that I'm suggesting that something like this would "never" happen in
>Canada, but I believe it's safe to say that the likelihood is *much* lower.
>There are many reason why I don't want to live in the US and this is a
>perfect example of one of them.
You are certainly lucky to have single payer universal health care in Canada. If we, someday, develop a civilized health care policy here in the U.S.A., I'm sure that we would still need to purchase caller's insurance. Though I expect that it would be even cheaper than it is currently. We could still be sued, but not for medical expenses. Contra dances--and many other community events--would be easier and probably less expensive to organize.
Just a thought,
Greg
