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Re: [Callers] Amy Asked For A Less Loaded Term (formerly "Advice on gypsy")

by tavi merrill via Callers

A couple thoughts i left out of the first message: I suggest "take eyes" rather than "lock eyes" because it's a less forceful/invasive phrasing and because it mirrors "take right hands," "take hands four" et cetera. And yes, i've seen others' comments to the effect that some find eye contact uncomfortable, but eyes are the primary connection between dancers in that move, so i see no reason to shy away from including that information in teaching and prompting, and those who find eye contact uncomfortable can continue avoiding it - as they do anyway, regardless of what the move is called.

9 years, 2 months

[Callers] Gypsies

by Andrea Nettleton via Callers

I don't like the idea that a term we use might be offensive to someone. I think part of its tenacity is that it can be used for a whole family of similar eye locking moves. The term walk around will not serve in what is now called a gypsy star, or in a traveling gypsy, gypsy chase, or gypsy hey, which all have eye contact as a common element. In discussing with dancers, I heard objection to the terms catching eyes, grabbing by the eyes etc. made them think of hands in eyes. Not that they didn't understand, but it was distasteful to them. Perhaps we could agree to a term like 'facing' to link the diverse moves together. It is used in squares in cases where instead of the usual facing someone's back, you are face to face (as in a facing diamond). This un-knots all the alternative moves (facing star, facing hey, travel facing). I don't actually think of a plain gypsy as involving a shoulder, but rather a side of my face. Go R face round your N, ladies L face round each other? Facing indicates where we should look more or less without demanding eye contact. I like eye contact, but some are profoundly uncomfortable with it. I dislike when they choose to twirl their bodies rather than at least look in my general direction. Facing helps with that. I'm sure we will come up with something better, but I'd like a solution that acknowledges this family of moves. I'm not fond of eddy, for its aural similarity to the name Eddie. Spiral, vortex etc, while all sort of indicative of rotation, also indicate to me the funnel effect, which is not the only way we use the move. Many gypsies merely move us smoothly on to another dancer. One final thought, offered mostly for grins. I have occasionally thought of a gypsy as two people walking round a maypole. We could say R maypole round your N, Ladies L maypole in the center, go one and a half to your P, R maypole and swing your partner. :D Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > On Oct 25, 2015, at 12:56 PM, Joy Greenwolfe via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > I once had someone explain the gypsy as not trusting someone enough to take their eyes off of them (!), so I agree that the underlying meaning can be problematic, to say the least. Other moves have historical meanings too, but Gypsy as a term is more pejorative than, say, Allemande, which references traditional German folk dance hand holds. > > I like Michael's suggestion for "eyes." When teaching, it could be described as "walk around holding eyes," which is similar to how I already describe it (holding eyes instead of hands). Then during the dance, the call could be shortened to "eyes" or "hold eyes." Something like "Ladies hold eyes" seems to roll off the tongue with a good rhythm. Or maybe "Ladies by the eyes?" > > Melting could still be melting. Not sure how I'd fix my gypsy chase move, though. > > There is also the issue of avoiding similar directions that would confuse the dancers, such as in a Mad Robin where you are encouraged to hold eyes with the person across from you, but not actually rotate around them. Maybe we need an alternate descriptive/evocative term, like the way a Mad Robin is sometimes called Sliding Doors. > > A single orbit? Eyes single? Star single? Hands off? > > I'm also curious about thoughts about to what degree we might explain the change to dancers. From most of the dancers' perspective, it may be "if it ain't broke, don't change it." We might get push-back from dancers exasperated with what seems to them like an arbitrary term change. Maybe if the term is more descriptive, they won't notice as much. "Holding Eyes" works for me. > > Just some thoughts. > > Joy Greenwolfe > Durham, NC > > >

9 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

by Martha Wild via Callers

I can see from this discussion that there is definitely merit in giving this move a different name, though I had never thought of it as a derogatory term before. I rather like the idea suggested in a previous post of "eddy" because it is short and to the point and sounds different from other calls. "Walk all around your neighbor/partner" is fine for a walkthrough and as a description, but not very good for a quick reminder when you'd rather be calling a lot less. Another move that one would have to rename is the "gypsy star". I have personally always called the move "gypsy star" as "star wrong" - mostly because if I say "gypsy star" there is always at least one couple in the crowd that starts to gypsy and swing (eddy and swing?) instead of doing the star. "Star wrong" is also short and to the point and emphasizes the oddity of the star - two people backing up and two going forward. It seems to get the job done. Martha On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote: > In square dance, the call "walk all around your left hand lady" is very close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder walk around. A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a Left Dosido. > Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms. > Rich > Stafford, CT > > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to > face, instead of back to back. > > As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means > back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face? > Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak > French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many. > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers > <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to be > > many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly > > those reading the "digest" version). > > > .... > > Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers (and > > dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried > > rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the > > existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani > > heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it > > being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be > > renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might offend > > but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since > > thought of other possible names and came up with these: > > > > Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound > > Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon? > > Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out. > > > > Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was to > > bring happiness, not offend. > > > > -Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

9 years, 2 months

[Callers] Amy Asked For A Less Loaded Term (formerly "Advice on gypsy")

by tavi merrill via Callers

With regard to the term's offensiveness or lack thereof, i am less interested in the exact origins of the term's use within ECD than i am in the implications in pairing the term with that particular move. To be "gypped" is to be cheated, a term rooted in stereotypes of Romani people as untrustworthy, and the eyes are associated with gypsies in popular lore that ascribes a certain mystery or hypnotic power to the gypsy's gaze. While i am aware of both people who are offended by the term and people who take pride in it (hmm, how is that different from the N word? or fag?) i find the term itself less problematic than the web of association among the term, the eyes, mystery, hypnosis and criminality. Alternatives to "gypsy" have thus been on my radar for some time now. Most of the suggestions - orbit, vortex, yada yada - are dismissible, which leads me to a very simple suggestion. While flirtation isn't necessary to the move, eye contact is kind of the point of it. I had forgotten to explicitly teach the move at a recent gig with a number of beginners and just decided to prompt "eyes." It was magic. While i haven't yet pressed this into service: "Take eyes with your [partner/neighbor] and, without hands, turn by the [R/L]." As a prompt, "eyes" has so much more sense and grace to it than any other term that's been suggested. Associated moves (gypsy chase, gypsy star, etc) are another bridge to cross. Personally, i would feel comfortable removing the term from my calling as the name of that particular move without feeling a need to eschew or sanitize dances with the term in the title. I mean, Amy Asked for Eyes is a little awkward ;)

9 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

by James Saxe via Callers

Jeff Kauffman referred us to: > http://www.jefftk.com/p/history-of-the-term-gypsy That page mentions Playford's 1651 description of the dance "Cuckolds all a row," which includes the directions: ..., goe about the Co. We. not turning your faces. ..., goe about your owne not turning faces. [I'm using spelling from http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/playford_1651/074small.html Jeff's page seems to have facsimilie pages of a different edition.] Jeff writes that > Sharp interpreted this section as a series of whole-gips, where "whole-gip" is a figure from Morris dancing, and noted that this leaves us with the question of how the Morris figure got that name. Let me point out that the 1651 edition of Playford also includes a dance titled "The Spanish Jeepsie" (listed as "Spanish Jepsies" in the contents). This dance has a similar figure to the one in "Cuckolds all a row": ... go all about your We. not turning your faces. ... In fact the second and third parts of "The Spanish Jeepsie" have ... go about your own as before ... So the figure occurs more often in that dance than it does in "Cuckolds all a row". I don't know of (and haven't looked for) any specific evidence linking "The Spanish Jeepsie" to the terms "half-gip" and "whole-gip" in Morris dancing. I also don't know of (and haven't looked for) any evidence linking the choreography of "The Spanish Jeepsie" to anything that occurs in traditional Romani dancing (or it traditional Spanish dancing). None of this historical stuff helps with the issue of the term "gypsy" causing offence of with the task of picking a preferable term. One thing I think I can safely predict is that those who are offended by the term "gypsy" would be even more offended by "gip" (pronounced the same as "gyp", meaning to swindle). --Jim > On Oct 24, 2015, at 7:32 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 5:17 AM, Chris Page via Callers > <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> "Gypsy" comes from Cecil Sharp, when he was trying to name a figure that >> appeared in the literature of two dancers going around each other. >> >> My hearsay understanding is that he named it after some Romani dances he >> knew of where partners didn't touch each other. >> > > Sharp called the figure "Whole-Gip" in The Country Dance Book Part II, > and seems to have taken the name from Morris: > > The figures which occur in the course of the dances described in > "The Dancing Master" are very varied and very numerous. With the > exception of the Set, the Side, and the Honour, and others of a like > character, all of which are essentially Country dance figures, I have > been able to connect nearly all of them with similar evolutions in the > Morris or Sword dances. The Whole-Poussette and, of course, the Roll, > are sword-dance figures, and I believe that all those Country Dance > figures, in which an arch is made by the joining of hands, > handkerchiefs, or ribbons, were originally derived from the same > source. Other evolutions such as Whole-Gip, Back-to-Back, Cross-over, > Foot-up, Corners, etc., are familiar Morris figures. > > If anyone knows where to look for how Morris dancers got "gip" I'd be > very curious. > > http://www.jefftk.com/p/history-of-the-term-gypsy > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

9 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

by janet via Callers

Aside from the fact that I feel that "political correctness" has gotten out of hand in society in general, I would like to point out that words change their intentions over time as well as within different communities. While it may be true that gypsy was originally meant as a derogatory term against a certain group of people, in the contra community it is quite the opposite. Gypsy in Contra actually has two meanings, the first is the dance move and in fact other moves where you are facing another person (i.e. gypsy star, gypsy heys) and there are dance gypsies who travel frequently to other dances outside their home community. Neither one is at all derogatory. Gypsy moves are fun and moSt people really like them. Dance gypsies are very proud of being one. In no way whatsoever is the term meant to be derogatory in our community. There are many examples of this in society, but I will just point out one .. troll. Troll has an original meaning as a mean mythical creature, who, somewhere along the lines became associated with living under a bridge. In today's society a troll came to mean someone who reads computer forums, usually with malicious intentions. But even that has shifted so people refer to trolling the Internet as reading forums or posts without any intent to post at all. But you know what troll means to me, as someone who grew up in Michigan? I lived in the southern peninsula, or "under the bridge" - referring to the Mackinaw bridge). It is not derogatory, it is funny. I don't think we need to change any term that used to be derogatory, I would encourage people to recognize that in our society, it has a different meaning, and a very positive one at that. Language changes over ten and terms take on all new meanings. If I were to respond to this woman, I would explain to her that while we recognize that gypsy was originally a derogatory term, gypsies are highly regarded in our community and explain why. Janet Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone In response to this person from your dance I would personally reply with something like: "I'm sorry that you were offended and take your input seriously. The "gypsy" move in Contra dancing is shared from English Country Dance, and is a standardized term in this context. As a result of your input I've raised this issue with a group of dance leaders I participate in and there may be an opportunity to rename this move over time. Thanks for coming to our dance and I hope you'll join us again." On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, except to apologize for offending.

9 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

by Aahz Maruch via Callers

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote: > > I don't think of it as a derogatory term. Are you Romani? As with other terms that are slurs against various demographic groups, you don't get to decide what's derogatory or offensive if you're not part of the group. In many cases (e.g. "queer" or "nigger"), terms that are acceptable or reclaimed for in-group usage are still considered derogatory when used by other people. -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

9 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

by Brooks Hart via Callers

Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in soundCyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out. How about "eddy"? Brooks Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:08:23 -0400 To: amywimmer(a)gmail.com CC: callers(a)sharedweight.net Subject: Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy" From: callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to be many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly those reading the "digest" version). I don't stress flirtation with this move - if so inclined, it appears to develop quite naturally on its own. What I typically say to a first time group of dancers is something along the lines of "lock [tractor beam] eyes with this person, slightly present your right [left] shoulder to them and walk around them [counter-]clockwise without touching - we call this a Gypsy". In response to this person from your dance I would personally reply with something like: "I'm sorry that you were offended and take your input seriously. The "gypsy" move in Contra dancing is shared from English Country Dance, and is a standardized term in this context. As a result of your input I've raised this issue with a group of dance leaders I participate in and there may be an opportunity to rename this move over time. Thanks for coming to our dance and I hope you'll join us again." Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers (and dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might offend but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since thought of other possible names and came up with these: Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in soundCyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was to bring happiness, not offend. -Don On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, except to apologize for offending. _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

9 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

by Rich Sbardella via Callers

In square dance, the call "walk all around your left hand lady" is very close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder walk around. A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a Left Dosido. Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms. Rich Stafford, CT On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to > face, instead of back to back. > > As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means > back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face? > Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak > French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many. > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers > <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to > be > > many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly > > those reading the "digest" version). > > > .... > > Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers > (and > > dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried > > rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the > > existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani > > heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it > > being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be > > renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might > offend > > but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since > > thought of other possible names and came up with these: > > > > Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound > > Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon? > > Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out. > > > > Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent > was to > > bring happiness, not offend. > > > > -Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >

9 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

by Ron Blechner via Callers

"Spiral". That said, I've yet to hear a report of a Romani being offended. It's my understanding that this may be a problem, say, in Europe, where the term may be used as a slur. But here in America... we have plenty of racial slurs, and I've yet to hear or hear of gypsy being used in a derogatory manner. But hey, prove me wrong. I'm just one person who hears things. Should Brits stop calling cigarettes "fags" because we Americans have hurtfully turned that into a slur? On Oct 24, 2015 2:52 PM, "Richard Hart via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to > face, instead of back to back. > > As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means > back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face? > Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak > French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many. > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers > <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to > be > > many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly > > those reading the "digest" version). > > > .... > > Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers > (and > > dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried > > rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the > > existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani > > heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it > > being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be > > renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might > offend > > but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since > > thought of other possible names and came up with these: > > > > Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound > > Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon? > > Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out. > > > > Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent > was to > > bring happiness, not offend. > > > > -Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >

9 years, 2 months

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