On Wed, Oct 28, 2015, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
>
> I have been contra dancing for 30 years or so and this is the first
> time I've encountered a question about "gypsy" being controversial.
> The people who contra dance on average are well left of center
> politically--people who would never use an ethnically offensive
> word.(Finding a bumper sticker at a contra dance gathering supporting
> a Republican candidate is quite impossible.)As you noted, language
> evolves, and the use of "gypsy" in contra dancing never had any
> offensive baggage or intent. Given the thousands of left-wing contra
> dancers who have guiltlessly gypsied over the years, having a single
> individual (who may not well be a member of the allegedly offended
> group) come to a dance, and for some reason makes the connection she
> did, does not seem adequate to drop the word.
<belly laugh> Your suggestion that progressive people promoting
political correctness always stick to their progressive principles is
risible. I suggest that you do some research into the countless number
of times that "progressive" people have screwed over minorities who
weren't in their own demographic.
To save you a bit of time, here's one specific example that consumed
large amounts of time and emotional energy in one of my other social
groups:
http://fanlore.org/wiki/RaceFail_%2709
> Your examples of "nigger" and "faggot" are not comparable, as they are
> today often sill used with intended hate.
Please re-read the messages pointing out that in Europe, particularly,
"gypsy" still definitely gets used as a hateful slur. And I don't know
enough about *ALL* of American culture to presume that "gypsy" isn't used
that way here in significant subcultures. Certainly "gyp" (as a verb)
does get used.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
I facilitate several communities of practice of various kinds around the country, and all are struggling to find ways to make the virtual communication between face-to-face meetings vibrant and meaningful. When working through this with my colleagues, I often use SharedWeight as an example of a really successful virtual community, with only one face meeting per year that I know of - lunch at Ralph Page - and that not even of all the members, but lots of meaty, lively, personal, valuable online conversation, enduring over years.
This discussion about the use of the word “gypsy” totally proves my point!! We ran the gamut from digging into the painful areas, to exploring academic esoterica, and landed on a wonderful possible solution. Gyre. I love it! And I can’t wait to try it out next dance!!
> On Oct 29, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>
> Martha, gyre is an excellent option,but now we'll have to develop a basic move called "chortle". It has such a ring to it.
> Rich
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 4:24 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
> Gyre makes me chortle. Could work.
> Martha
>
> On Oct 29, 2015, at 12:16 PM, Amy Wimmer via Callers wrote:
>
>> I LOVE that word as a replacement for "gypsy." It makes absolute sense and conveys the idea of the move perfectly.
>> -Amy
>>
>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 9:23 AM, bill fischer via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>
>>> blessings linda
>>>
>>> having read volumes of only occasionally interesting thoughts about this subject, i am delighted to give a powerful second to the suggestion of gyre
>>> the word’s use in the two works cited - two of my favorites - cements its appeal for me
>>> grateful for you!!
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> down the road..........
>>> billy fischer
>>> www.billthedancecaller.com <http://www.billthedancecaller.com/>
>>> outonawhim(a)erols.com <mailto:outonawhim@erols.com>
>>> home 203-393-3464 <tel:203-393-3464>
>>> mobile 203-314-0221 <tel:203-314-0221>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 10:59 AM, Linda Leslie via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Erik for summarizing. It is very helpful to have the list below. I have one other suggestion to add for consideration for those who wish to make a change in terms. Gyre can be found in Carol’s “Jabberwocky" and Yeats’ "The Second Coming". It has the advantage of being one syllable, not used for anything else, and begins with the same sound as gypsy. Rather capricious, if I do say so myself! My husband Bob Golder, thinks that this word is even better than gypsy, because the meaning of the word conveys the movement.
>>>> Linda
>>>>
>>>> gyre [jahyuh r] noun
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1. a ring or circle.
>>>> 2. a circular course or motion.
>>>> 3.
>>>> Oceanography. a ringlike system of ocean currents rotating clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and counterclockwise in the Southern Hemisphere.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:24 AM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On the subject of gypsies and language, I've enjoyed reading the myriad comments, and find myself feeling ambiguous (which I define as feeling very strongly both ways). And, I know it's been thrashed about and we've a request for acknowledging that we are unlikely to change any opinions on this. That said:
>>>>>
>>>>> * I have had this discussion with a number people in the past, about the very strong negative connotations of the word "Gypsy." Ambivalent as I am, I do think we should look for a replacement word.
>>>>>
>>>>> * I thought I'd collect all the words that have been suggested so far (unless I missed one or two) in one place. Here it is:
>>>>> No Hand Turn
>>>>> No Hand Allemande (and I do think Allemande comes from "The German," a dance)
>>>>> Dance Around, or Walk Around
>>>>> Face to Face Do Si Do
>>>>> Bine (binary stars -- snippet below)
>>>>> Nose-to-Nose Do Si Do
>>>>> Dance Around - or Dance About
>>>>> Orbit Around - or Orbit About
>>>>> Loop
>>>>> Eddy
>>>>> Vortex
>>>>> Swirl
>>>>> Spiral
>>>>> Eyes or "Take Eyes"
>>>>> Holding Eyes
>>>>> Eyeballs
>>>>> Facing
>>>>> Maypole
>>>>> Hands Off
>>>>> Face à Face (facey-face...)
>>>>> Right (Left) Shoulder (without the G-word)
>>>>> Cyclone (though mentioned with a complaint - too "violent")
>>>>>
>>>>
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Delia Clark
PO Box 45
Taftsville, VT 05073
802-457-2075
deliaclark8(a)gmail.com <mailto:deliaclark8@gmail.com>
While we're complaining, I think I object to having dance terminology drawn
from a dead writer's drug trip.
As for “mad robin”, I'm still for renaming it “angry bird”.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 9:25 PM, Jacob or Nancy Bloom via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Lewis Carroll may have defined the word that way on one occasion, but
> Humpty Dumpty defined the word as "to go round and round like a gyroscope."
> And Humpty Dumpty was an expert on getting words to mean what you pay them
> to mean!
>
> And William Butler Yeats said, in his poem The Second Coming, "Turning and
> turning in the widening gyre, the falcon cannot hear the falconer." So his
> meaning was clearly a spiral in which one turns.
>
> Jacob
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:44 PM, John Sweeney via Callers <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but in 1855, in the magazine Misch-Masch, Lewis Carroll defined
>> Gyre
>> as follows:
>> "Gyre, verb (derived from GYAOUR or GIAOUR, 'a dog'). To scratch like a
>> dog."
>>
>> So, nope, nothing to do with gyration!
>>
>> And, I have always understood it to be pronounced with a hard "g" as in
>> "give". My dictionary agrees with me. So, no doesn't sound like "gypsy".
>>
>> Of course, you can still use the term and pronounce it "jire" (based on
>> its
>> other definitions).
>>
>> You see, words never mean what you think they do! :-)
>>
>> Happy dancing,
>> John
>>
>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>
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>
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>
Then Gypsy meltdown could be "gyre and gambol (sic) in the wabe." This
would be particularly true if the gypsy and swing are used as a "catch up"
move when the couple is wabehind.
If the term is to be changed I think there should be agreement as to what the replacement is and not have a variety of terms. The health of many contra dance series is very dependent upon new dancers coming and having a good time so they return. There is a big vocabulary to learn and having it not be the same at successive or neighboring dances would add to the confusion.
On Oct 28, 2015, at 3:21 PM, Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Might I suggest at this point there's been enough shared such that folks have figured out where they are on this subject? And, while the discussion has been informative, that further posts will do little to change anyone's beliefs?
>
> If that's accepted, I further suggest we move forward with our own personal belief and act as conscience dictates:
> Should you wish to continue with the status quo call, then do so and incorporate whatever learning you've taken from this exchange to improve your teaching and leading. Your further experience and learning from dance participants may inform your future view.
> Should you be motivated to change the term, have a conversation with your dance organizer(s) and try out an alternate call/description, should they be willing - see how it goes. That learning may inform the culture by example.
> I hope we can trust the Folk Process to be robust enough to do its thing in this matter - as it has so many times before.
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On Thu, Oct 29, 2015, Ron Blechner wrote:
>
> Can we please not discuss politics on this list?
Whether "gypsy" is an offensive term and the figure name should be
changed is an inherently political discussion, so no. (Ditto similar
discussions about gender-free dancer terms.)
For that matter, I would argue that discussions about how to handle
harassment are political as well; at minimum, thirty or forty years ago,
there would have been people arguing exactly as you are that we should
avoid discussing them because they are political.
What exactly are you objecting to?
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"We've just found a line in a perl script that invokes a shell script to call
a lisp program which invokes the very-same perl script." --anonymous
For those interested in the historical derivation of our terms:
As Alan said, the Allemande was a couple dance from the late 1700s. In it,
both hands were held, and the arms moved through various positions. This
put the couple in much closer contact than they were in the minuet, in
which the only physical contact was through hands held at arm's length.
This makes the Allemande an important part of the transition of couple
dancing from the minuet to the waltz.
The dance form known as Germans was shortened from German Cotillions.
These were musical games which were popular in ballrooms in the 1800s.
Here's a link to an example of the Allemande being danced:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3ay1kAK0YA
Jacob
On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Alan Winston via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>
> On 10/29/15 2:45 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers wrote:
>
> On Oct 29, 2015 4:24 AM, "Erik Hoffman via Callers" <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > No Hand Allemande (and I do think Allemande comes from "The
> German," a dance)
> >
>
> I wonder what we'll do if we discover that to some Germans the French term
> "Allemande" is derogatory and they prefer to be called "Deutsche".
>
> Given that "allemande" is an incredibly-overloaded term in different dance
> genres - it's a progressive figure for two or three couples in Scottish
> dancing; it's a kind of 1700s couple dance; it's a pretzel-armed turn in
> cotillions, it's a not-100%-clearly-understood-thing-with-a-circular-track
> in Regency-era longways dances, it's an elbow turn, it's a hand turn - it
> wouldn't ruin my life if we started saying "hand turn" instead of
> "allemande".
>
> Just sayin'. (Although I would miss "allemande left with your left hand,
> walk right in to a right and left grand" and the allemande alphabet.)
>
> -- Alan
>
>
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>
We'd probably have a conversation much like this one. I hope we'll always
have conversations like this when told something that we do is hurtful to
someone. It would probably be a different conversation, though, since
Germans have not been thought to be persecuted, stereotyped, and
economically oppressed on a large scale alongside the usage of the term
"allemande."
It also seems pretty unlikely since the word gypsy is fairly well known to
be at minimum controversial (check out the citations on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Romani_people#Gypsy_and_Gipsy)
and allemande is not.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:45 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> On Oct 29, 2015 4:24 AM, "Erik Hoffman via Callers" <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > No Hand Allemande (and I do think Allemande comes from "The
> German," a dance)
> >
>
> I wonder what we'll do if we discover that to some Germans the French term
> "Allemande" is derogatory and they prefer to be called "Deutsche".
>
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>
>
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015, Sargon de Jesus via Callers wrote:
>
> This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and
> when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical
> questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously
> non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify
> removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when
> use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is
> deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken
> to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes
> to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the
> reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always
> featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's
> advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't the
> etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can
> rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term?
Maybe. But given that there isn't any clear etymology for "gypsy" as a
dance figure and given that "dance gypsy" *is* a clear reference to the
common meaning of gypsy, I think that the burden of proof falls on those
defending the use of "gypsy" as a figure -- but only if it turns out that
Romani find it offensive.
> To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive
> terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely
> independently? For example:
>
> - The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a
> swastika.
> - The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK.
> - Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common
> rock formation.
> - Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks."
> - The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains.
>
> If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and
> appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in
> contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant
> elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather
> genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra
> vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks!
All these examples refer to larger cultural/linguistic conflicts than
"gypsy" as a dance move. I'll point out that "gay" got killed (at least
for now) despite its centuries of existence, and "queer" is still very
much up in the air. IMO, those two examples demonstrate that there's
likely to be more pushback on everyday use of terms that are also
offensive when their everyday use is already emotion-laden.
And given that "gypsy" as a dance figure has some emotional force in the
contra community, I think it's more likely to get replaced if it turns
out that it's offensive.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
On 10/29/15 2:45 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers wrote:
>
> On Oct 29, 2015 4:24 AM, "Erik Hoffman via Callers"
> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > No Hand Allemande (and I do think Allemande comes from "The
> German," a dance)
> >
>
> I wonder what we'll do if we discover that to some Germans the French
> term "Allemande" is derogatory and they prefer to be called "Deutsche".
>
>
Given that "allemande" is an incredibly-overloaded term in different
dance genres - it's a progressive figure for two or three couples in
Scottish dancing; it's a kind of 1700s couple dance; it's a
pretzel-armed turn in cotillions, it's a
not-100%-clearly-understood-thing-with-a-circular-track in Regency-era
longways dances, it's an elbow turn, it's a hand turn - it wouldn't ruin
my life if we started saying "hand turn" instead of "allemande".
Just sayin'. (Although I would miss "allemande left with your left
hand, walk right in to a right and left grand" and the allemande alphabet.)
-- Alan
