Import1 October 2015

import1@lists2.sharedweight.net

1 participants
70 discussions

Re: [Callers] Progressive politics? Ha, ha

by Aahz Maruch via Callers

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015, Ron Blechner wrote: > > Can we please not discuss politics on this list? Whether "gypsy" is an offensive term and the figure name should be changed is an inherently political discussion, so no. (Ditto similar discussions about gender-free dancer terms.) For that matter, I would argue that discussions about how to handle harassment are political as well; at minimum, thirty or forty years ago, there would have been people arguing exactly as you are that we should avoid discussing them because they are political. What exactly are you objecting to? -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> "We've just found a line in a perl script that invokes a shell script to call a lisp program which invokes the very-same perl script." --anonymous

8 years, 5 months

[Callers] Derivation of "Allemande"

by Jacob or Nancy Bloom via Callers

For those interested in the historical derivation of our terms: As Alan said, the Allemande was a couple dance from the late 1700s. In it, both hands were held, and the arms moved through various positions. This put the couple in much closer contact than they were in the minuet, in which the only physical contact was through hands held at arm's length. This makes the Allemande an important part of the transition of couple dancing from the minuet to the waltz. The dance form known as Germans was shortened from German Cotillions. These were musical games which were popular in ballrooms in the 1800s. Here's a link to an example of the Allemande being danced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3ay1kAK0YA Jacob On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Alan Winston via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > > On 10/29/15 2:45 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers wrote: > > On Oct 29, 2015 4:24 AM, "Erik Hoffman via Callers" < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > > > > > No Hand Allemande (and I do think Allemande comes from "The > German," a dance) > > > > I wonder what we'll do if we discover that to some Germans the French term > "Allemande" is derogatory and they prefer to be called "Deutsche". > > Given that "allemande" is an incredibly-overloaded term in different dance > genres - it's a progressive figure for two or three couples in Scottish > dancing; it's a kind of 1700s couple dance; it's a pretzel-armed turn in > cotillions, it's a not-100%-clearly-understood-thing-with-a-circular-track > in Regency-era longways dances, it's an elbow turn, it's a hand turn - it > wouldn't ruin my life if we started saying "hand turn" instead of > "allemande". > > Just sayin'. (Although I would miss "allemande left with your left hand, > walk right in to a right and left grand" and the allemande alphabet.) > > -- Alan > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

8 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Gypsy Synopsis

by Harris Lapiroff via Callers

We'd probably have a conversation much like this one. I hope we'll always have conversations like this when told something that we do is hurtful to someone. It would probably be a different conversation, though, since Germans have not been thought to be persecuted, stereotyped, and economically oppressed on a large scale alongside the usage of the term "allemande." It also seems pretty unlikely since the word gypsy is fairly well known to be at minimum controversial (check out the citations on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Romani_people#Gypsy_and_Gipsy) and allemande is not. On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:45 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > On Oct 29, 2015 4:24 AM, "Erik Hoffman via Callers" < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > > > > > No Hand Allemande (and I do think Allemande comes from "The > German," a dance) > > > > I wonder what we'll do if we discover that to some Germans the French term > "Allemande" is derogatory and they prefer to be called "Deutsche". > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

8 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Offensive terms and cultural norms

by Aahz Maruch via Callers

On Tue, Oct 27, 2015, Sargon de Jesus via Callers wrote: > > This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and > when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical > questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously > non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify > removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when > use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is > deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken > to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes > to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the > reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always > featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's > advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't the > etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can > rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term? Maybe. But given that there isn't any clear etymology for "gypsy" as a dance figure and given that "dance gypsy" *is* a clear reference to the common meaning of gypsy, I think that the burden of proof falls on those defending the use of "gypsy" as a figure -- but only if it turns out that Romani find it offensive. > To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive > terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely > independently? For example: > > - The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a > swastika. > - The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK. > - Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common > rock formation. > - Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks." > - The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains. > > If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and > appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in > contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant > elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather > genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra > vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks! All these examples refer to larger cultural/linguistic conflicts than "gypsy" as a dance move. I'll point out that "gay" got killed (at least for now) despite its centuries of existence, and "queer" is still very much up in the air. IMO, those two examples demonstrate that there's likely to be more pushback on everyday use of terms that are also offensive when their everyday use is already emotion-laden. And given that "gypsy" as a dance figure has some emotional force in the contra community, I think it's more likely to get replaced if it turns out that it's offensive. -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

8 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Gypsy Synopsis

by Alan Winston via Callers

On 10/29/15 2:45 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers wrote: > > On Oct 29, 2015 4:24 AM, "Erik Hoffman via Callers" > <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > > > > > > No Hand Allemande (and I do think Allemande comes from "The > German," a dance) > > > > I wonder what we'll do if we discover that to some Germans the French > term "Allemande" is derogatory and they prefer to be called "Deutsche". > > Given that "allemande" is an incredibly-overloaded term in different dance genres - it's a progressive figure for two or three couples in Scottish dancing; it's a kind of 1700s couple dance; it's a pretzel-armed turn in cotillions, it's a not-100%-clearly-understood-thing-with-a-circular-track in Regency-era longways dances, it's an elbow turn, it's a hand turn - it wouldn't ruin my life if we started saying "hand turn" instead of "allemande". Just sayin'. (Although I would miss "allemande left with your left hand, walk right in to a right and left grand" and the allemande alphabet.) -- Alan

8 years, 5 months

[Callers] CDSS Exec visit November 6th and 7th!

by Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers

Country Song and Dance Society is coming to NYC and would love to meet you, dance with you, and learn about your local dance community! The schedule includes ECD and Contra with talent from near and far. The potluck on Saturday between the dances will be a great opportunity to munch, mix, and mingle. Ritual dancers may make surprise visits too. Please invite your communities of FDOs as well as dancers, musicians, and callers! We hope to see you on the dance floor! https://www.facebook.com/events/1110110708999514/ Schedule, locations, and subway directions: FRIDAY: Friday 7:30-10:30 CDNY English Country Dance with callers *Brooke Friendly, Jill Allen, Jenny Beer*! Manhattan. (Needs some embellishment to match below.) Friday 7:30-11 Brooklyn Contra and Village Contra Present:* The Brooklyn Swing Ensemble with *Alexandra Deis-Lauby and Quena Crain. Wonderful local talent, gender free calling, and a vibrant dance community! Brooklyn. SATURDAY in Manhattan: Saturday 3-6 Advanced Contra dance with music and calling by KING KONTRA all the way from ENGLAND! http://www.cbdb.co.uk/king-kontra/ <http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbdb.co.uk%2Fking-kontra%2F&…> *Saturday 6-8:00 Community meeting and potluck with CDSS Executive Committee members. * Saturday 7:30-10:45 More KING KONTRA! Callers include CDSS Board Members: *Jill Allen, Brooke Friendly* and local talent! New dancer workshop from 7:30-8:00 . Manhattan events take place at: The Church of the Village 201 West 13th street at 7th ave. NY, NY Subway trains at the corner of 7th Ave and 14th Street are 1, 2, or 3. F, A, C, E a block away. D, N, 4, 5, or 6 a 10-minute walk away. The Brooklyn dance takes place at: Camp Friendship 339 8th st, Brooklyn NY Subway trains F, G, R. *Join us on the dance floor!*

8 years, 5 months

[Callers] Ralph Page Dance Legacy Weekend, Jan. 15-17

by Richard Hart via Callers

The Ralph Page Dance Legacy weekend will be on the weekend of January 15-17, 2016 in the Memorial Union Building at the University of New Hampshire. Come and join us for a great weekend of dance, music, and dance history. We even expect Ralph Page, himself, to join us briefly for a few dances. This year we have added the ability to register online. Please let us know if you have any problems with the online registration so we can fix it as soon as possible. http://ralphpage.neffa.org/ Rich Hart.

8 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Callers Digest, Vol 18, Issue 17

by tavi merrill via Callers

i like where this is going. Folks who want to keep the g-word would have to prove it didn't come from 1620s "unconventional; outdoor" (but we know where that came from, and from the bohemian sense also where hipsters/YUCCYs came from though that was some pretty interesting cultural evolution, thank you Fitzgerald, love ADD). Ah, the arts of cajolery. That's a great phrase for what i was dancing around, godawful puns intended. The square callers have a great point with "dance around/walk around." Particularly Woody's point that it supplies facing generally and dancers do their creative best to cajole each other into swings. We can still call Becky Hill's "The Eyes Have It," but only because mad robin. > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 12:03:40 -0400 > From: Rich Sbardella via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > To: Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> > Cc: callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy" > Message-ID: > < > CAE4BujJ+22zv8mf4bZ185kf8fwRfzEiBZoSrohSmLn+LurfsfQ(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > In square dance, Indian Style is rarely used for single file promenade, > although it was prevalent just 25 years ago. It has slowly disappeared > replaced with just the descriptive language of "single file". > I often replace, "Single file Indian Style" with "Single file with a > smile". > I also beieve Walk around your Neighbor is a suitable, and perhaps the > best, replacement for Gypsy Neighbor or Gypsie around your Neighbor. It > already has the correct meaning for many dancers (eye contact optional), > and it easily translates from contra to common usage in squares. > Rich > Stafford, CT > > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > > Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost certainly refers to Romani, it > > differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad > thing, > > because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse > > direction version. > > > > That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy" > > move, just stating that there are some clear differences.

8 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

by David Smukler via Callers

When calling, I’ve struggled with “gypsy,” not because of its unfortunate political reverberations (like Amy, I have used it without intending offense or realizing it might cause offense), but because for me it doesn’t roll trippingly off the tongue — I guess I don’t really like “verbing" nouns. I also completely agree with those who are uncomfortable with caller language that seems to require flirtation. People can and will flirt if they wish to, but it shouldn’t be suggested as a requirement. All this said, there is lots of choreography where I like the figure, and I’ve certainly used it. In some old square dance calls you sometimes hear “walk around your corner” for a move with similar geography. How about “walk around” as a straightforward, non-loaded alternative? David > From: Amy Wimmer via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> > Date: October 24, 2015 at 3:12:57 AM EDT > To: callers(a)sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@sharedweight.net> > Subject: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy" > > > Hello All, > > I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I received the email below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, except to apologize for offending. > > I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no offense. I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make excuses. Does this move need a new name? How would you respond? > > -Amy > Seattle > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net <http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net>

8 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

by via Callers

I'm no philologist, but I don't think it's as open and shut as suggested. While there is no proof the term derived from something other than in reference to the people, there is equally no proof to the affirmative that it is named after those people. Although it is indeed probable that it was named after the Roma people, mere coexistence (or pre-existence) of the term doesn't confirm it's the source. To keep things in perspective: On more than one occasion, I've heard contra dance callers explained that an "allemande" comes from the French "à la main" or "by the hand." However, that is apocryphal and the true origin is from a reference to a German dance (in French, "Allemande"). Just because something sounds logically consistent doesn't mean that's the true origin. I think the fact that the term is shortened to "gip" in some contexts and spelled as "jeepsies" in another leaves enough reasonable doubt that it could come from other derivations. That said, it may need to be retired regardless. > On Oct 27, 2015, at 13:50, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > This should be open and shut. > > http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gypsy > > The term, whether with a y or i vowel (remember, this is before Webster invented the dictionary with standard spellings) is ~400 years old. > > The burden of proof is thus on those who would say there's some other root of the word where the Morris dancers got it. > >> On Oct 27, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton" <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> wrote: >> I've been reading all the historical origins discussion. It's seems to me we are far from concluding that the term 'gypsy' is associated with Romani people. We have that Cecil Sharp probably heard Morris Dancers using whole and half gip, and appropriated the movement and term for broader use in country dance, apparently without investigating origin. And we have a possible association between an Elizabethan? theater production called the Spanish Gypsy, with a dance of similar name with movement that may or may not be what we now call gypsy, but was not so named in said dance. We are all assuming that at some point, someone was referring to the Roma, to their hands free dance, to their gaze, or something, but we don't know. >> That said, the trouble comes on situations like that Amy Wimmer encountered. People from outside come in, and THEY make the assumption and association. And some feel it is not politically correct, and take offense. We haven't heard of a case of Romani people taking offense, presumably because we haven't had any attend a contra? That doesn't make using the term ok, it just means we have no usable specific data. Sargon's question therefore remains unanswered. What are the criteria for removing a term from our vocabulary? What level of provable offense constitutes reason for removal? Even if the answer is none, it's worth asking ourselves. >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >>> On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost certainly refers to Romani, it differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad thing, because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse direction version. >>> >>> That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy" move, just stating that there are some clear differences. >>> >>>> On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>> This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't the etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term? >>>> >>>> To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with offensive terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely independently? For example: >>>> - The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a swastika. >>>> - The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK. >>>> - Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common rock formation. >>>> - Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks." >>>> - The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains. >>>> >>>> If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks! >>>> Sargon >>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>> Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I misunderstood what you were saying. >>>>> >>>>> -- Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote: >>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers wrote: >>>>>>> I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than "gyp", as you >>>>>>> say on the web page. >>>>>> Alan - >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use >>>>>> the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris >>>>>> dancers use "gyp". >>>>>> >>>>>> Colin Hume >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years, 5 months

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Import1 October 2015