14 Aug
2017
14 Aug
'17
4:38 p.m.
I am wondering whether most dance series have liability insurance - particularly small
ones.
Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on the number of
dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other sources would be more
expensive. For a small dance with few financial reserves, the extra fees each year could
easily drive it to extinction.
I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not all do.
What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few years?
I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who got injured or
thought they were treated badly, venues where there was damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
Anything else?
John
14 Aug
14 Aug
4:56 p.m.
I started a group that ran a small dance series and we did have CDSS
liability insurance. Some venues required it, but the ones we used
the most often didn't. The potential downside just seemed too large
compared to the cost of the insurance.
I haven't heard of any lawsuits, though I have heard of injuries.
E.g., at one dance there was a guy who would jump up and come down
hard on both feet, who landed on a woman's foot, breaking a bone,
which was a life-changing injury for her. I have also heard of
dipping-related back injuries, and had my own nose broken and gotten a
concussion.
Another organizer once told me that as a lawyer, he was surprised at
how there weren't any lawsuits he had heard of related to contra
dances, and that if the same injuries had occurred at Wal-Mart, it
would almost surely be the case.
There have been a few groups approached around the southeast at least,
by some music-industry related group. From what I have heard, some of
them fought it and at least one of them paid. One group said they
actually had a rep out to investigate, but when he heard the contra
dance music, figured out that the group was being serious when they
said they weren't playing Justin Bieber, et al.
Having put on some dances that utilized copyrighted music recordings
for our Electroflow series, the strategy was to get the callers
Callerlab licensing. It might have been more cost-effective to try to
get a license for the group, but I didn't want to approach a huge
conglomerate as an individual and get on their radar.
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am wondering whether most dance series have
liability insurance - particularly small ones.
Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on the number of
dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other sources would be more
expensive. For a small dance with few financial reserves, the extra fees each year could
easily drive it to extinction.
I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not all do.
What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few years?
I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who got injured or
thought they were treated badly, venues where there was damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
Anything else?
John
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Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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5:14 p.m.
Our smallish dance has had liability insurance for the past several
years because the venue required it. We also had to have their name
added to the contract which cost another $30 on top of the other fees
you have already mentioned. I have been at a couple dances where
accidents have happened, and someone could have sued, but fortunately
didn't. I've felt better knowing we have the insurance, but we really
can't afford it and our bands and callers have suffered because we had
less money to pay them. (We try to hold back a little each month to help
cover those costs as well as the cost of the hall.) I don't know what
the solution is - sorry!
Mary Anne
On 8/14/2017 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers wrote:
I am wondering whether most dance series have
liability insurance - particularly small ones.
Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on the number of
dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other sources would be more
expensive. For a small dance with few financial reserves, the extra fees each year could
easily drive it to extinction.
I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not all do.
What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few years?
I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who got injured or
thought they were treated badly, venues where there was damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
Anything else?
John
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Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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5:27 p.m.
We had a problem where a dancer fell and broke her arm. Her health insurance covered her
treatment. They called her and demanded to know who we were and who owned the venue. She
said OK - but if anyone asks I will tell them I was a klutz and fell - it was my own
fault. AT that point the insurance co dropped it.
I was told is it common for insurance companies to try to recover their costs via law
suits.
If you have any assets at all they need to be protected. In our state, officers of
not-for-profit cannot be sued for liability issues - and we are all volunteers. Make sure
your organizers are not vulnerable
Mac McKeever
From: Mary Anne Eason via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Organizers] Liability insurance
Our smallish dance has had liability insurance for the past several
years because the venue required it. We also had to have their name
added to the contract which cost another $30 on top of the other fees
you have already mentioned. I have been at a couple dances where
accidents have happened, and someone could have sued, but fortunately
didn't. I've felt better knowing we have the insurance, but we really
can't afford it and our bands and callers have suffered because we had
less money to pay them. (We try to hold back a little each month to help
cover those costs as well as the cost of the hall.) I don't know what
the solution is - sorry!
Mary Anne
On 8/14/2017 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers wrote:
I am wondering whether most dance series have
liability insurance - particularly small ones.
Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on the number of
dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other sources would be more
expensive. For a small dance with few financial reserves, the extra fees each year could
easily drive it to extinction.
I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not all do.
What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few years?
I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who got injured or
thought they were treated badly, venues where there was damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
Anything else?
John
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Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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6:19 p.m.
I've asked this question a few times, and I have literally never heard a
single anecdote of a contra dancer suing a dance organization.
When I ran a dance series, we were almost entirely judgment-proof; we
probably did not even have enough assets to cover the deductible on our
insurance policy. The only reason we had insurance was because at least
one venue required it. If you are lucky enough to find a venue that does
not require a liability insurance policy, then don't carry one. The risks
are minimal-- maybe a 1 in 10,000 chance (I'd guess less) of being sued and
losing, what, a couple thousand bucks of sound equipment? Versus paying
$500 or more every year for perpetuity, then having to lose half your
assets to cover a deductible / spend loads of time and effort fighting an
insurance company to get it to cover costs or defend you if you're sued
anyway.
Plus, that HMO lawyer who was looking to recoup what it spent on some
lady's medical bills is going to look elsewhere if you don't have insurance
and also don't have significant assets. Not worth spending $10,000 on a
lawsuit to possibly recover a few pieces of sound equipment worth $800 used
and a bank account balance of $230.
This goes for dances that are incorporated as nonprofits and are a typical
contra dance organization-- small assets, running only a weekly or monthly
dance. Large organizations like FSGW or NEFFA or BACDS will obviously have
larger assets and that's a different question entirely.
Those of you talking about ASCAP or whomever looking for fees, that's
separate. Getting liability insurance wouldn't cover a copyright
infringement action from ASCAP anyway.
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Mac Mckeever via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
We had a problem where a dancer fell and broke her
arm. Her health
insurance covered her treatment. They called her and demanded to know who
we were and who owned the venue. She said OK - but if anyone asks I will
tell them I was a klutz and fell - it was my own fault. AT that point the
insurance co dropped it.
I was told is it common for insurance companies to try to recover their
costs via law suits.
If you have any assets at all they need to be protected. In our state,
officers of not-for-profit cannot be sued for liability issues - and we are
all volunteers. Make sure your organizers are not vulnerable
Mac McKeever
------------------------------
*From:* Mary Anne Eason via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
*To:* organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
*Sent:* Monday, August 14, 2017 12:14 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Organizers] Liability insurance
Our smallish dance has had liability insurance for the past several
years because the venue required it. We also had to have their name
added to the contract which cost another $30 on top of the other fees
you have already mentioned. I have been at a couple dances where
accidents have happened, and someone could have sued, but fortunately
didn't. I've felt better knowing we have the insurance, but we really
can't afford it and our bands and callers have suffered because we had
less money to pay them. (We try to hold back a little each month to help
cover those costs as well as the cost of the hall.) I don't know what
the solution is - sorry!
Mary Anne
On 8/14/2017 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers wrote:
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--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
I am wondering whether most dance series have
liability insurance -
particularly small ones.
Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on
the number
of dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other
sources would be more expensive. For a small dance with few financial
reserves, the extra fees each year could easily drive it to extinction.
I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not
all do.
What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few
years?
I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who
got
injured or thought they were treated badly, venues where there was
damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
Anything else?
John
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net
15 Aug
15 Aug
2:54 a.m.
Thanks for that additional information Mac. It's sad times when we have to consider
these things.
Laurie P.
~ When I dance, I cannot judge, I cannot hate, I cannot separate myself from life. I can
only be joyful and whole, that is why I dance. ~Hans Bos~ ~
On Monday, August 14, 2017, 1:27:44 PM EDT, Mac Mckeever via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
We had a problem where a dancer fell and broke her arm. Her health insurance covered her
treatment. They called her and demanded to know who we were and who owned the venue. She
said OK - but if anyone asks I will tell them I was a klutz and fell - it was my own
fault. AT that point the insurance co dropped it.
I was told is it common for insurance companies to try to recover their costs via law
suits.
If you have any assets at all they need to be protected. In our state, officers of
not-for-profit cannot be sued for liability issues - and we are all volunteers. Make sure
your organizers are not vulnerable
Mac McKeever
From: Mary Anne Eason via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Organizers] Liability insurance
Our smallish dance has had liability insurance for the past several
years because the venue required it. We also had to have their name
added to the contract which cost another $30 on top of the other fees
you have already mentioned. I have been at a couple dances where
accidents have happened, and someone could have sued, but fortunately
didn't. I've felt better knowing we have the insurance, but we really
can't afford it and our bands and callers have suffered because we had
less money to pay them. (We try to hold back a little each month to help
cover those costs as well as the cost of the hall.) I don't know what
the solution is - sorry!
Mary Anne
On 8/14/2017 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers wrote:
I am wondering whether most dance series have
liability insurance - particularly small ones.
Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on the number of
dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other sources would be more
expensive. For a small dance with few financial reserves, the extra fees each year could
easily drive it to extinction.
I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not all do.
What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few years?
I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who got injured or
thought they were treated badly, venues where there was damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
Anything else?
John
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Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net
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14 Aug
14 Aug
5:22 p.m.
The Friends of Greenfield Dance have long opted to carry CDSS insurance for our dances, of
which there only a few per year. But we are only one of eight sets of organizers at
Greenfield, and they each will have come to their own decisions about covering their own
dances.
Liz Sturgen
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com
On Monday, August 14, 2017 John W Gintell via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am wondering whether most dance series have liability insurance - particularly small
ones. Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on the number
of dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other sources would be more
expensive. For a small dance with few financial reserves, the extra fees each year could
easily drive it to extinction. I know that sone venues require that the group has
insurance, but not all do. What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the
past few years? I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who
got injured or thought they were treated badly, venues where there was damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these? Anything else?
John _______________________________________________ Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net
6:22 p.m.
Lots of posts covered the liability.
wrt copy infringement, live music won't have issue with performance
copyright, but not all music
played for dances will be public domain "traditional". My
non-lawyerly guess is that more an issue for the band,
since they are the ones choosing their material.
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
15 Aug
15 Aug
1:51 a.m.
Our dance in Deerfield, NH obtained liability insurance for a couple of
years through CDSS, and the expense threatened to put us out of business. I
was then alerted, however, to the National Folk Organization, which costs
us $50 annually to join, with the benefit of liability insurance included
AT NO EXTRA COST. I asked to receive from NFO a certificate of insurance
and found that coverage was comparable to what I had received through CDSS.
My suggestion to everyone is to look into NFO -- http://www.nfo-usa.org
Paul Pindris
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am wondering whether most dance series have
liability insurance -
particularly small ones.
Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on
the number of dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other
sources would be more expensive. For a small dance with few financial
reserves, the extra fees each year could easily drive it to extinction.
I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not all
do.
What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few
years?
I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who
got injured or thought they were treated badly, venues where there was
damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
Anything else?
John
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net
1:56 a.m.
We also made the switch to NFO a year or two ago. Absolutely no regrets.
Laurie PCDK (Country Dancing in Kalamazoo)
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Monday, August 14, 2017, 9:51 PM, Paul Pindris via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Our dance in Deerfield, NH obtained liability insurance for a couple of years through
CDSS, and the expense threatened to put us out of business. I was then alerted, however,
to the National Folk Organization, which costs us $50 annually to join, with the benefit
of liability insurance included AT NO EXTRA COST. I asked to receive from NFO a
certificate of insurance and found that coverage was comparable to what I had received
through CDSS. My suggestion to everyone is to look into NFO -- http://www.nfo-usa.org
Paul Pindris
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am wondering whether most dance series have liability insurance - particularly small
ones.
Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on the number of
dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other sources would be more
expensive. For a small dance with few financial reserves, the extra fees each year could
easily drive it to extinction.
I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not all do.
What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few years?
I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who got injured or
thought they were treated badly, venues where there was damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
Anything else?
John
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16 Oct
16 Oct
3:06 p.m.
John and all,
We are a small group and carry liability and equipment insurance through an
agency located near Ithaca NY, True Insurance Agency. I know the rates are
very reasonable or we could not afford them. You can find them on the web.
ASCAP should not be an issue as most of the music is traditional and does
not fall under their umbrella, you run into issues with them if you have
performers playing other's music without permission or if it has been
copyrighted and registered with ASCAP. At least that is my understanding
from working with a Blues NFP group and having been the manager of a
restaurant.
Mary
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On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am wondering whether most dance series have
liability insurance -
particularly small ones.
Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, … depending on
the number of dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other
sources would be more expensive. For a small dance with few financial
reserves, the extra fees each year could easily drive it to extinction.
I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not all
do.
What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few
years?
I’d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who
got injured or thought they were treated badly, venues where there was
damage to the site.
What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
Anything else?
John
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days old
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10 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Dave Casserly via Organizers -
Donald Perley via Organizers
-
John W Gintell via Organizers
-
Laur via Organizers
-
Mac Mckeever via Organizers
-
Mary Anne Eason via Organizers
-
Mary Collins -
Paul Pindris via Organizers
-
Peter Clark via Organizers
-
via Organizers