>
> Maia,
> Did we give you what you needed? If so, could you let us know and put a stop to the thread? Callers are now more busy calling one another out for getting off topic or being inappropriate than generating new answers.
> Summary of suggestions, as best I remember:
> 1) don't call the dance
> 2) call the dance with the disclaimer farther in advance than the teach.
> 3) call the dance with a substitute choreography, not mentioning the possibility of a swing.
> 4) call the dance and at that place in the dance say: with your shadow either swing or (substitute move) and end x-ly (probably traded places either facing across or with one person facing across ready to do the next move (if the substitute was an allemande 1.5)).
>
> While some advocated for disclaimers, many felt it is bad for the community to imply from the mic that people might be uncivil. Others objected that some might take the disclaimer as license to avoid dancers for any number of reasons, some being petty prejudices rather than a sense of real danger. Overall there were more voices against disclaimer and for offering an alternative movement should you feel this was the right dance for the moment.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong. Could we leave this alone unless someone has a truly new idea for Maia?
>
> Thanks,
> Andrea
>
> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
>
>>> On Sep 9, 2015, at 3:08 PM, Aahz Maruch via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 08, 2015, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 1:53 PM, Luke Donforth <luke.donev(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Asking about how to appropriately do dances with shadow swings seems
>>>>> like asking how men can appropriately grope women during a dance.
>>>>
>>>> I again think your attempt to inject levity into a conversation have
>>>> come across as crass and inappropriate. Asking about shadow swings
>>>> on a list for calling is pertinent; joking about men groping women
>>>> dancers isn't.
>>>
>>> Your assessment is inaccurate. This is not a matter where levity is
>>> acceptable. Creating a situation which could force someone into close,
>>> almost intimate proximity with a person perceived as emotionally or
>>> physically threatening is inappropriate. A lesser problem is that one
>>> can get a shadow who one considers personable, but very unpleasant
>>> for swinging (for example, due to either height difference, or a body
>>> position or weight distribution which unnecessarily strains one's own
>>> body).
>>
>> Well, I share Luke's assessment. The phrasing you used to compare shadow
>> swings and groping implies either levity or a disregard of the difference
>> between groping and a shadow swing. Regardless of the seriousness with
>> which you view "forcing" a shadow swing, it is clear that many other
>> people disagree, and your comparison is not appropriate, especially given
>> Maia's original request to AVOID any discussion of whether shadow swings
>> are appropriate.
>> --
>> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
>> <*> <*> <*>
>> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
I love Robert Cromartie's "Illegal in Most States" and whenever I call it at least one person comes up afterwards to say it was a wonderful dance.
April Blum On Sep 9, 2015 6:34 PM, Chris Page via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> And yet, they're done. I know Carol Ormand writes and calls them. This Saturday at the contra weekend I attended, a national caller called "Head of the Bed."
>
> Yes, we've heard your opinion. Avoiding shadow swings be perfect for you, but it may not be for others. And I'd like to hear from the others, rather than having you (or someone else) try and shut down the conversation by repeatedly making absolute statements.
>
> There is more than one correct point of view.
>
> (Personally I almost never** use shadow swings, so I don't have much to contribute to this particular conversation. But I enjoy listening to others.)
>
>
> -Chris Page
> San Diego
>
> ** And yet I'm guilty of having written one, and called it at NEFFA. I've got my own hypocrisy.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Chris: The indicates that someone in 2008 (Dave Eisenstadter) other than the composer (Nils Fredland) not call this dance written in 2003.
>> Everyone has become more aware since then.
>> One wonders if Nils still calls this dance
>>
>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 4:38 PM, Chris Page <chriscpage(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sigh. See "Head of the Bed", written by Nils Fredland.
>>
>> http://www.library.unh.edu/special/forms/rpdlw/syllabus2008.pdf#page=49b
>>
>> -Chris Page
>> San Diego
>>
>
The substitution examples you gave are rarely critical to a dance's flow. Swings are more likely to be. If a dance written with a shadow swing flows well with something else, the the dance should always be called with the something else. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
Here's a suggestion I don't think I've seen in this discussion. If you want to call a dance with a shadow swing, how about save it for time when you can have several shorter sets, and remind couples they can join other sets when they reach the top or the bottom, to get an opportunity to dance with a bigger variety of people. (And of course remind dancers they may have the surprise of a new shadow.)
Richard
On Sep 8, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> First, a disclaimer: Some people on this listserv thing shadow swings are problematic. Some don't see any issue with them. This is NOT the conversation I want to have in this thread; I ask that you respond to the question I'm asking and do not debate my premise--at least not in this particular thread. This should help keep this thread on track and hopefully reduce excess noise and go-nowhere discussions on this listserv. Thanks!
>
> Anyway, the actual question I wanted to ask (whew!)--
>
> There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the potential harms of shadow swing dances? I was considering, at the beginning of the dance, having dancers identify their shadow and mentioning, "this will be a shadow swing dance, so if you need to make any changes, do so now" (or something like that)--haven't gotten the wording down-pat, but the idea is giving dancers advance warning of a shadow swing so they can move (thereby changing their shadow) if they need to. Any thoughts on this method? Suggestions of others?
>
> Cheers.
> Maia
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
David: Really, would you ever call a dance with a shadow swing?
None of our most respected caller (those who are invited as the featured caller at various weekends) never (or darned close to never).I don't ever recall attending a weekend when the featured caller used a shadow swing. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 4:18 PM, Dave Merrill via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
My only observation to add to the shadow swing melee is that while not completely closed to them, i'm cognizant of the several reasons they are a less than optimal choice. Given these drawbacks of the figure, i would not use a shadow swing in a situation with very long sets. If the choreography of the dance is so awesome i feel a need to use it, and the end effects aren't prohibitive, i'd consider running it in a situation with short sets (much as i'd use for a 1s active dance). Why? Because if anyone feels the need to escape their shadow, they can get to an end of the set and either jump out or rumble into another set sooner. I think this offers dancers the best chance to fix a potential issue without singling anyone out or creating a dynamic on the floor more awkward than the choice of a shadow swing dance (albeit an exceptional one!) already did.
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
My only observation to add to the shadow swing melee is that while not
completely closed to them, i'm cognizant of the several reasons they are a
less than optimal choice. Given these drawbacks of the figure, i would not
use a shadow swing in a situation with very long sets. If the choreography
of the dance is so awesome i feel a need to use it, and the end effects
aren't prohibitive, i'd consider running it in a situation with short sets
(much as i'd use for a 1s active dance). Why? Because if anyone feels the
need to escape their shadow, they can get to an end of the set and either
jump out or rumble into another set sooner. I think this offers dancers the
best chance to fix a potential issue without singling anyone out or
creating a dynamic on the floor more awkward than the choice of a shadow
swing dance (albeit an exceptional one!) already did.
Here's the thing:
- There really is harassment, creepy behavior, etc.
- There really are cases where third parties see those things and
they aren't actually there in the eyes of the perceived victim
So organizers have to keep their eyes open and review things on a case
by case basis. Because one organizer has seen unjustified third-party
charges of harrassment doesn't mean this particular case is one of
those; because another organizer can multiply real examples of
unacceptable behavior doesn't mean this particular case is one of them.
It doesn't, in my view, help discourse to tell people who have real
experiences on one side or the other of that that they're not taking the
situation seriously enough / taking the situation too seriously and,
implicitly, that your experiences trump their experiences.
-- Alan
On 9/9/15 1:44 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers wrote:
>
> Harassment is real. It's widespread, and pretending it isn't hurts
> people and keeps people away from our dances.
>
> Things I have personally witnessed, and when subsequently asked the
> dancer whether anything was unusual, they confirmed:
>
> One dancer has a habit of grabbing hip *just* at the butt-line. One of
> the young women was 15.
>
> Another dancer intentionally threw a quarter on the ground in front of
> a young 20-something lady. I watched in horror as she bent over and
> picked it up as he leered.
>
> One dancer did a frontways dip to a 20-something lady which included
> torso-torso frontal contact. No permission was asked.
>
> Another dancer came in drunk / high and was dancing wild.
>
> Another dancer has a habit of intentionally shoulder-checked men who
> have called him out on his creepiness.
>
> Another dancer was swinging way too close. Turns out he was following
> a minor around and asking completely inappropriate questions.
>
> And I have more of these stories. Seriously, the list goes on and on.
>
> I've been dancing far fewer years than many on this list, and danced
> at many different dances - this isn't limited to one dance community.
> And these are just the stories I've verified.
> So are all of your eyes closed?
>
> So... Yeah. I absolutely think that we should keep our eyes open. I
> think we should calmly and privately inquire when we think we see
> inappropriate behavior. We should be absolutely receptive that
> sometimes behavior is seen and a victim is too afraid to step forward
> on their own.
>
> And we should stop with such flippant and potentially dangerous
> phrases like "crying wolf" or that people need to just grow up and
> "act like an adult" because bad stuff happens.
>
> On Sep 9, 2015 4:04 PM, "Martha Wild via Callers"
> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>
> Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly that other men
> were being creepy with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her,
> she said there was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and
> swing her and occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance.
> The more I spoke with the two of them the more I wanted to yell at
> the woman - run fast, very fast, as far away from this control
> freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it was not my place to warn her
> right in front of him. No surprise they never returned.
>
> Martha
>
>
> On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
>
>> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's
>> fire" issue applies here, though. It would if there were several
>> *different* women complaining about one man...
>>
>> --------------------
>> Lindsay Morris
>> CEO, TSMworks
>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900 <tel:1-859-539-9900>
>> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com <mailto:lindsay@tsmworks.com>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner
>> <contraron(a)gmail.com <mailto:contraron@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Lindsay,
>>
>> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if
>> my brevity comes off as bruskness.
>>
>> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
>>
>> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out
>> the source. Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high
>> level of ensuring that we ask open-ended questions, and not
>> leading questions.
>>
>> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
>> announcements about us being available for any reason.
>> Usually 4-7 members of our board attend any dance.
>>
>> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer,
>> if you're interested in more specifics.
>>
>> I would also caution about making such definitive statements
>> as "just an accusation". In my experience, where there's
>> smoke, there's fire. For every accusation, there's five
>> people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
>>
>> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of
>> issues. The biggest benefit is simple:
>>
>> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe
>> it's a simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a
>> clear boundary drawn. But wait until there's a pile of
>> complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the
>> resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Ron Blechner
>>
>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
>> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions
>> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutio…>
>> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
>> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-pol…>
>> are thoughtful and useful documents.
>>
>> We have a different problem here.
>>
>> One woman often complains to board members about men she
>> sees as creepers or sexual predators. She reports their
>> misbehavior on behalf of their victims. The victims don't
>> initiate these reports.*
>>
>> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or
>> inappropriate. Recently one of the "victims" clarified
>> that her discomfort with the man was a year ago and she'd
>> long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in
>> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman
>> was unhappy about some nameless thing he'd done.
>>
>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel
>> harassed should talk to her about it. We feel that's the
>> Board's job, not hers.
>>
>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even
>> inventing - "naughty-dancer" problems.
>>
>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual
>> predator, his wife has to wonder if it's true. This adds
>> to any marital tensions they may already have. So, while
>> this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face,
>> it seems to me that she's committing violence.
>>
>> How should we handle this?
>>
>> * I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy -
>> i.e., the victim has to speak up (and then our
>> process will usually fix simple miscommunication issues).
>> * We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine
>> victims know who to talk to.
>>
>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one
>> person's issues from poisoning the atmosphere of a
>> mostly friendly dance?
>>
>> ____
>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and
>> complaining, so advocacy may be a good thing. But that's
>> a different discussion. In these situations, there's no
>> victim; there's no predator; there's just an accusation
>> with little to back it up.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Well, I don't want to fan the flames in this normally cordial and helpful
community.
However, I'm here, and seeing what I'm seeing, and asking for perspective.
--------------------
Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Harassment is real. It's widespread, and pretending it isn't hurts people
> and keeps people away from our dances.
>
> Things I have personally witnessed, and when subsequently asked the dancer
> whether anything was unusual, they confirmed:
>
> One dancer has a habit of grabbing hip *just* at the butt-line. One of the
> young women was 15.
>
> Another dancer intentionally threw a quarter on the ground in front of a
> young 20-something lady. I watched in horror as she bent over and picked it
> up as he leered.
>
> One dancer did a frontways dip to a 20-something lady which included
> torso-torso frontal contact. No permission was asked.
>
> Another dancer came in drunk / high and was dancing wild.
>
> Another dancer has a habit of intentionally shoulder-checked men who have
> called him out on his creepiness.
>
> Another dancer was swinging way too close. Turns out he was following a
> minor around and asking completely inappropriate questions.
>
> And I have more of these stories. Seriously, the list goes on and on.
>
> I've been dancing far fewer years than many on this list, and danced at
> many different dances - this isn't limited to one dance community. And
> these are just the stories I've verified.
> So are all of your eyes closed?
>
> So... Yeah. I absolutely think that we should keep our eyes open. I think
> we should calmly and privately inquire when we think we see inappropriate
> behavior. We should be absolutely receptive that sometimes behavior is seen
> and a victim is too afraid to step forward on their own.
>
> And we should stop with such flippant and potentially dangerous phrases
> like "crying wolf" or that people need to just grow up and "act like an
> adult" because bad stuff happens.
> On Sep 9, 2015 4:04 PM, "Martha Wild via Callers" <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly that other men were
>> being creepy with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her, she said there
>> was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and swing her and
>> occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance. The more I spoke with
>> the two of them the more I wanted to yell at the woman - run fast, very
>> fast, as far away from this control freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it
>> was not my place to warn her right in front of him. No surprise they never
>> returned.
>>
>> Martha
>>
>>
>> On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
>>
>> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's fire"
>> issue applies here, though. It would if there were several *different*
>> women complaining about one man...
>>
>> --------------------
>> Lindsay Morris
>> CEO, TSMworks
>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
>> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Lindsay,
>>>
>>> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity
>>> comes off as bruskness.
>>>
>>> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
>>>
>>> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source.
>>> Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we
>>> ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
>>>
>>> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
>>> announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members
>>> of our board attend any dance.
>>>
>>> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
>>> interested in more specifics.
>>>
>>> I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an
>>> accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every
>>> accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
>>>
>>> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues.
>>> The biggest benefit is simple:
>>>
>>> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
>>> simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn.
>>> But wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost
>>> dancers and the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Ron Blechner
>>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" <
>>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions
>>>> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutio…>
>>>> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy
>>>> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-pol…>
>>>> are thoughtful and useful documents.
>>>>
>>>> We have a different problem here.
>>>>
>>>> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
>>>> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of
>>>> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>>>>
>>>> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate.
>>>> Recently one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man
>>>> was a year ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The
>>>> man in question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy
>>>> about some nameless thing he'd done.
>>>>
>>>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed
>>>> should talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
>>>> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>>>>
>>>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife
>>>> has to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may
>>>> already have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the
>>>> face, it seems to me that she's committing violence.
>>>>
>>>> How should we handle this?
>>>>
>>>> - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim
>>>> has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple
>>>> miscommunication issues).
>>>> - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims
>>>> know who to talk to.
>>>>
>>>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues
>>>> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>>>>
>>>> ____
>>>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining,
>>>> so advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In
>>>> these situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
>>>> accusation with little to back it up.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Callers mailing list
>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly that other men were being creepy with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her, she said there was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and swing her and occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance. The more I spoke with the two of them the more I wanted to yell at the woman - run fast, very fast, as far away from this control freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it was not my place to warn her right in front of him. No surprise they never returned.
Martha
On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's fire" issue applies here, though. It would if there were several different women complaining about one man...
>
> --------------------
> Lindsay Morris
> CEO, TSMworks
> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Lindsay,
>
> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity comes off as bruskness.
>
> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
>
> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source. Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
>
> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members of our board attend any dance.
>
> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're interested in more specifics.
>
> I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up.
>
> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The biggest benefit is simple:
>
> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
>
> Best regards,
> Ron Blechner
>
> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy are thoughtful and useful documents.
>
> We have a different problem here.
>
> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>
> Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about some nameless thing he'd done.
>
> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>
> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing - "naughty-dancer" problems.
>
> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, it seems to me that she's committing violence.
>
> How should we handle this?
> I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple miscommunication issues).
> We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know who to talk to.
> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>
> ____
> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an accusation with little to back it up.
>
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Luke: Your assessment is inaccurate. This is not a matter where levity is acceptable.Creating a situation which could force someone into close, almost intimate proximity with a person perceived as emotionally or physically threatening is inappropriate.A lesser problem is that one can get a shadow who one considers personable, but very unpleasant for swinging (for example, due to either height difference, or a body position or weight distribution which unnecessarily strains one's own body). Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 1:53 PM, Luke Donforth <luke.donev(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Mr. Fuerst, I again think your attempt to inject levity into a conversation have come across as crass and inappropriate.
Asking about shadow swings on a list for calling is pertinent; joking about men groping women dancers isn't.
On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Asking about how to appropriately do dances with shadow swings seems like asking how men can appropriately grope women during a dance.
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 1:41 PM, Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
One can also be miffed at having to repeatedly swing a shadow who one finds very pleasant as a person, but just awkward to swing with (too tall, too short, distributes his/her weight during a swing in a way that strains some part of you). Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 1:30 PM, Mac Mckeever via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I agree with Michael - I can't see any reason I would want to call a dance with a shadow swing. If the rest of the dance is that good - modify it to get rid of that swing.
Chances are you are going to make at least one dancer very uncomfortable. I avoid any figures that introduce that risk (not a big fan of men's chains either).
There are lots of great dances out there - so I don't see a need to knowingly offend dancers with the few dances that contain risky figures. Warning them ahead of time creates a very awkward situation on the floor and someone is going to lose.
Mac McKeever
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Perry Shafran via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: "callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2015 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?
I'm going to go with Andrea's well-written note on this. I understand that the goal is to prevent people from dancing with people who really make them uncomfortable (i.e. creepers). However, if you suggest "if you need to make changes, do so now", that will open up the potential for people to refuse a shadow for ANY reason (they smell, they're too fat, they're too old, they're not my BFF, they're the same gender, they're a beginner, whatever), and that could cause a whole world of hurt - especially in a community where we welcome all and celebrate differences in people. There is no graceful way to do this, really, that I can think of.
For the most part, if there is someone that a person does not want to encounter in a dance, much less be a shadow, that person will find a different line to dance in. At least that has been my experience. Callers should not be encouraging people to find someone "better" than the potluck shadow that they got. I would suggest not calling a dance with a shadow swing - that would ward off potential problems with shadows people don't want to swing and also prevent the hurt that would come with suggesting people make changes for whatever reason.
Perry
From: Maia McCormick via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: "callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2015 11:06 AM
Subject: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?
Hey all,
First, a disclaimer: Some people on this listserv thing shadow swings are problematic. Some don't see any issue with them. This is NOT the conversation I want to have in this thread; I ask that you respond to the question I'm asking and do not debate my premise--at least not in this particular thread. This should help keep this thread on track and hopefully reduce excess noise and go-nowhere discussions on this listserv. Thanks!
Anyway, the actual question I wanted to ask (whew!)--
There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the potential harms of shadow swing dances? I was considering, at the beginning of the dance, having dancers identify their shadow and mentioning, "this will be a shadow swing dance, so if you need to make any changes, do so now" (or something like that)--haven't gotten the wording down-pat, but the idea is giving dancers advance warning of a shadow swing so they can move (thereby changing their shadow) if they need to. Any thoughts on this method? Suggestions of others?
Cheers.Maia
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Luke Donforth
Luke.Donforth(a)gmail.com
