If I evaluate the crowd of dancers and they require a lot of instruction for a move that they will see once in a evening (like the star promenade) then I get on the floor and do a demonstration.
It is by far better for those learners who have to "see" rather than "hear". Its so much clearer for the dancers to get the choreography with me teaching while demonstrating.
If I've misjudged the crowd and try to teach from the stage and there's confusion, I've found its harder for those dancers to "reset" their brain (since they have already learned it wrong), and perhaps they lost some confidence in me as a teacher.
I see less and less Callers teaching/demonstrating from the floor in the dances I attend on regular evenings. And more often it seems that the Callers are relying on the experienced dances to teach the newcomers during the dance, which is a completely different discussion.
Donna
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: Dale Wilson <dale.wilson(a)gmail.com>
Cc: callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>; Grant Goodyear <grant(a)grantgoodyear.org>
Sent: Tue, Nov 28, 2017 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [Callers] "pick her up"
Thanks for all of the perspectives, so far.
It's not necessarily easy to determine if dancers are giving proper weight.
The butterfly whirl is one of those moves especially where bad weight is common, and the move can be really uncomfortable:
- the person coming out of the allemande scoops at the waist, rather than shoulderblades - the arm is below center of mass, and can cause lower back pain. And really, I don't think hands belong on waists in any contra move.
- the person getting scooped up puts hand on top of shoulder / doesn't connect with their arm at all. This is probably the most frequent issue I see / experience dancing. And I believe it's exacerbated by the "gents do the thing to ladies" framing of prompting. And it's why I very much agree with those who've replied emphasizing the use of neighbor/partner.
- as mentioned by others, the person getting scooped not moving forward, and relying on the allemanding person to drag them along. Again, the "gents do the thing to ladies" exacerbates this, in my opinion.
And these above difficulties aren't always easy to spot from the stage.
So I like the "scoop" as a descriptor of the motion, but I am not really sure if it's the best descriptor of the *connection* between dancers and the shared weight. It's probably fine with a clear walk through - I'll often pause and emphasize connecting at shoulderblades and moving together as a unit.
I wish there was something slightly better that worked for both, but all of this discussion has been really good to reevaluate my teaching on these.
Thanks,
Ron Blechner
On Nov 28, 2017 11:36 AM, "Dale Wilson" <dale.wilson(a)gmail.com> wrote:
If the dancers do the right thing (and have fun) when I say the words then I'm calling it correctly.
If the dancers are confused or not having fun, then I am not calling it correctly.
If I can use fewer words to call it correctly then I try to do so.
Sometimes my words are directed to the active couples, sometimes to the inactives, sometimes to the gents, sometimes to the ladies, and of course sometimes they apply to everybody.
Always they are intended to help the dancers enjoy themselves.
Getting back to the original question.
If I were to call "pick up your neighbor" and I observed the people standing still somehow trying to "pick up" the person passing by in the allemande, then I would change the words I use. Until then, I use the words that I "always" use and that the experienced dancers are used to hearing.
And as for "courtesy turn", those two words are sufficient. There is no need (and usually no time) to mention that one dancer is the turner and the other the turnee.
Dale
--
There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors.
_______________________________________________
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List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Thanks for all of the perspectives, so far.
It's not necessarily easy to determine if dancers are giving proper weight.
The butterfly whirl is one of those moves especially where bad weight is
common, and the move can be really uncomfortable:
- the person coming out of the allemande scoops at the waist, rather than
shoulderblades - the arm is below center of mass, and can cause lower back
pain. And really, I don't think hands belong on waists in any contra move.
- the person getting scooped up puts hand on top of shoulder / doesn't
connect with their arm at all. This is probably the most frequent issue I
see / experience dancing. And I believe it's exacerbated by the "gents do
the thing to ladies" framing of prompting. And it's why I very much agree
with those who've replied emphasizing the use of neighbor/partner.
- as mentioned by others, the person getting scooped not moving forward,
and relying on the allemanding person to drag them along. Again, the "gents
do the thing to ladies" exacerbates this, in my opinion.
And these above difficulties aren't always easy to spot from the stage.
So I like the "scoop" as a descriptor of the motion, but I am not really
sure if it's the best descriptor of the *connection* between dancers and
the shared weight. It's probably fine with a clear walk through - I'll
often pause and emphasize connecting at shoulderblades and moving together
as a unit.
I wish there was something slightly better that worked for both, but all of
this discussion has been really good to reevaluate my teaching on these.
Thanks,
Ron Blechner
On Nov 28, 2017 11:36 AM, "Dale Wilson" <dale.wilson(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> If the dancers do the right thing (and have fun) when I say the words then
> I'm calling it correctly.
> If the dancers are confused or not having fun, then I am not calling it
> correctly.
> If I can use fewer words to call it correctly then I try to do so.
>
> Sometimes my words are directed to the active couples, sometimes to the
> inactives, sometimes to the gents, sometimes to the ladies, and of course
> sometimes they apply to everybody.
> Always they are intended to help the dancers enjoy themselves.
>
> Getting back to the original question.
>
> If I were to call "pick up your neighbor" and I observed the people
> standing still somehow trying to "pick up" the person passing by in the
> allemande, then I would change the words I use. Until then, I use the
> words that I "always" use and that the experienced dancers are used to
> hearing.
>
> And as for "courtesy turn", those two words are sufficient. There is no
> need (and usually no time) to mention that one dancer is the turner and
> the other the turnee.
>
> Dale
>
>
>
>
> --
> There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation,
> naming things, and off-by-one errors.
>
If the dancers do the right thing (and have fun) when I say the words then
I'm calling it correctly.
If the dancers are confused or not having fun, then I am not calling it
correctly.
If I can use fewer words to call it correctly then I try to do so.
Sometimes my words are directed to the active couples, sometimes to the
inactives, sometimes to the gents, sometimes to the ladies, and of course
sometimes they apply to everybody.
Always they are intended to help the dancers enjoy themselves.
Getting back to the original question.
If I were to call "pick up your neighbor" and I observed the people
standing still somehow trying to "pick up" the person passing by in the
allemande, then I would change the words I use. Until then, I use the
words that I "always" use and that the experienced dancers are used to
hearing.
And as for "courtesy turn", those two words are sufficient. There is no
need (and usually no time) to mention that one dancer is the turner and
the other the turnee.
Dale
--
There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation,
naming things, and off-by-one errors.
Lisa Greenleaf, once upon a time, suggested "scoop up your
partner/neighbor/whomever" as an evocative description for both a butterfly
whirl and a courtesy turn, so I've been using it for years with reasonable
success.
-Grant Goodyear-
On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> A quick question:
>
> How many callers believe that one role does the majority of the work in a
> courtesy turn or a butterfly whirl? If so, can you explain how the shared
> weight that differs from an allemande?
>
> I've always been taught about shared weight being essential in all contra
> moves, and I guess I'm still surprised when I hear callers prompt "pick her
> up and take her to the other side" as if the person in lady/raven role is
> not giving any weight. (Or similar one-role-biased prompting.)
>
> Thanks,
> Ron Blechner
>
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
>
--
Grant Goodyear
web: http://www.grantgoodyear.org
e-mail: grant(a)grantgoodyear.org
I view this situation generically as akin to talking to the "actives" in a
sequence where there's not enough time to tell everyone what to do in the
call (as opposed to the walk-through).
In this case, the Allemande folks are moving first and therefore "active."
I've used a call of "Gents Allemande Left once and a half, hold on, Ladies
join your Partner for a Star Promenade.." (or the reverse) but it's more
wordy than the "pick up your _____" or "pick 'em up" variant.
In my teaching I try to stress to the "picked up" folks that they are
active participants and it's important to stay aware, facing the right
direction and ready to merge up to speed into the promenade (akin to cars
on an on-ramp) - so all arrive on time for the next bit.
-Don
On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> A quick question:
>
> How many callers believe that one role does the majority of the work in a
> courtesy turn or a butterfly whirl? If so, can you explain how the shared
> weight that differs from an allemande?
>
> I've always been taught about shared weight being essential in all contra
> moves, and I guess I'm still surprised when I hear callers prompt "pick her
> up and take her to the other side" as if the person in lady/raven role is
> not giving any weight. (Or similar one-role-biased prompting.)
>
> Thanks,
> Ron Blechner
>
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
>
I don't recall anyone saying 'whirl her around'. That would imply the gent is not moving - which is not the case. I usually just say 'butterfly whirl'. When I teach, I occasionally show the problem if they let the ladies role do all the traveling.
Mac
On Wednesday, November 22, 2017, 2:44:55 PM CST, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Addendum:
Often accompanied by "... And whirl/reel her around" (again, both butterfly whirl / courtesy turn / a few other moves).
(Thanks for helping me clarify!)
On Nov 22, 2017 3:21 PM, "Mac Mckeever" <macmck(a)ymail.com> wrote:
I have always considered that terminology to refer to picking up someone as you would a hitchhiker, not physically lifting someone. I don't see it as having anything to do with who is doing what work.
Mac McKeever
On Wednesday, November 22, 2017, 2:15:38 PM CST, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight. net> wrote:
A quick question:
How many callers believe that one role does the majority of the work in a courtesy turn or a butterfly whirl? If so, can you explain how the shared weight that differs from an allemande?
I've always been taught about shared weight being essential in all contra moves, and I guess I'm still surprised when I hear callers prompt "pick her up and take her to the other side" as if the person in lady/raven role is not giving any weight. (Or similar one-role-biased prompting.)
Thanks,Ron Blechner______________________________ _________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/ callers(a)lists.sharedweight. net/
I wouldn't say that one role does more work than the other, but courtesy
turn and butterfly whirl are asymmetric and led by the person who backs up.
The person that is backing up can easily apply a speed up pressure to
control the speed of the turn. For the dancer that is going forward, it's
hard to give a speed up pressure when your hand is behind the other person
and that person is going backward. You can't pull because there is nothing
to grip.
The above assumes that the common way to follow is start out slow and speed
up to match the leader.
Allemandes are symmetric, both roles are identical, so the speed must
negotiated. This works best when both dancers are good at timing.
"Pick up your partner/neighbor, star promenade, whirl" is my call.
Cary Ravitz
I have always considered that terminology to refer to picking up someone as you would a hitchhiker, not physically lifting someone. I don't see it as having anything to do with who is doing what work.
Mac McKeever
On Wednesday, November 22, 2017, 2:15:38 PM CST, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
A quick question:
How many callers believe that one role does the majority of the work in a courtesy turn or a butterfly whirl? If so, can you explain how the shared weight that differs from an allemande?
I've always been taught about shared weight being essential in all contra moves, and I guess I'm still surprised when I hear callers prompt "pick her up and take her to the other side" as if the person in lady/raven role is not giving any weight. (Or similar one-role-biased prompting.)
Thanks,Ron Blechner_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
A quick question:
How many callers believe that one role does the majority of the work in a
courtesy turn or a butterfly whirl? If so, can you explain how the shared
weight that differs from an allemande?
I've always been taught about shared weight being essential in all contra
moves, and I guess I'm still surprised when I hear callers prompt "pick her
up and take her to the other side" as if the person in lady/raven role is
not giving any weight. (Or similar one-role-biased prompting.)
Thanks,
Ron Blechner
Great advice, thank you Jerome! I'll think more on that, for sure.
On Nov 16, 2017 11:38 AM, "Jerome Grisanti" <jerome.grisanti(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Angela,
>
> Square dance callers do these substitutions as well.
>
> One very basic exercise for Modern Western Square Dance callers is to
> develop sequences (2, 3, 4 or more) moves that get dancers to the zero box,
> which is most easily visualized by having head couples move forward one
> step, then turning away from your partner and facing your corner.
>
> Add in sequences to rotate the square halfway, 1/4 or 3/4, use symmetrical
> calls, and sets can easily be scrambled and then resolved using plug-in
> sequences to "find your corner, allemande left, etc."
>
> Back to contra:
>
> Although one might consult an existing database, I think it's probably
> more useful to develop ones own mental database by sitting down and writing
> sequences for each situation. (In the case of contra, neutral (8-count and
> 16-count sequences), men change (8- and 16-count), women change (8- and
> 16-count), couples change (8- and 16-count)). Yes, you will likely develop
> a list with much overlap with other callers, but I believe the exercise is
> worth it. And you may come up with some unique, or at least rarely used,
> combinations.
>
> Good luck!
>
> --Jerome
>
>
> Jerome Grisanti
> 660-528-0858 <(660)%20528-0858>
> http://www.jeromegrisanti.com
>
> "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and
> power and magic in it." --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Look at Cary Ravitz's web page on contra dance choreography (
>>> http://www.dance.ravitz.us/chor.php), especially the section on what he
>>> calls black boxes. http://www.dance.ravitz.us/chor.php#m I think that
>>> is exactly what you are asking about. He did a useful workshop on that
>>> subject at Pigtown Fling a few years ago.
>>>
>>> David Harding
>>>
>>
>> Thank you so much David! I think this is exactly the kind of information
>> I'm looking for, but I'm finding the format which Cary has everything set
>> in pretty difficult to digest. I'll have to set aside some time to parse
>> the information in a way that makes more sense to me.
>>
>> Anyone else have any leads?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Angela
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:00 PM, DAVID HARDING <dharding101(a)comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Look at Cary Ravitz's web page on contra dance choreography (
>>> http://www.dance.ravitz.us/chor.php), especially the section on what he
>>> calls black boxes. http://www.dance.ravitz.us/chor.php#m I think that
>>> is exactly what you are asking about. He did a useful workshop on that
>>> subject at Pigtown Fling a few years ago.
>>>
>>> David Harding
>>>
>>> On November 15, 2017 at 11:39 AM Angela DeCarlis via Callers <
>>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I'm remembering a few workshops I'd taken with Rick Mohr a few years
>>> ago, and also an occasion where I collected a dance from his calling. He
>>> happily gave me the name and author of the dance, but was also quick to
>>> note that he had substituted out different moves for 16 counts of the
>>> dance, so that it would work better with his evening's program.
>>>
>>> Now, someone like Rick can just do this in his head. He has a data base
>>> of common combinations of dance moves, and where everyone ends up after
>>> executing them. As such, he can easily make substitutions on the fly,
>>> because he knows offhand that A+B=X+Y.**
>>>
>>> What I'm wondering is, has anyone bothered to write down and compile a
>>> list of common choreography substitutions? I'm thinking a spreadsheet of
>>> some sort, where we think about the net product of various combinations of
>>> dance moves, and categorize the combinations based on their output.
>>>
>>> For example: Neighbor Promenade across, Ladies Chain = Long Lines
>>> Forward and Back, Gents Allemande L 11/2.
>>>
>>> If no one has already done this, I'll start a new thread where we can
>>> begin to collaboratively write one up!
>>>
>>> Thanks, All!
>>> Angela
>>>
>>>
>>> **Yes, the momentum in each of these scenarios is probably different,
>>> and one might be better than another. But this depends on the rest of the
>>> dance's choreography, and for these purposes I don't especially care. :)
>>>
>>> ***Also worth acknowledging that substituting out an entire 16-count
>>> phrase could easily result in calling a different dance written by a
>>> different author, but I'm more concerned about using this technique for
>>> practical programming purposes.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>>
>
