Import1 March 2016

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Re: [Callers] Thoughts on B2/A1 swings and having time to flourish

by Jeff Kaufman via Callers

On Mar 27, 2016 8:38 PM, "tavi merrill via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > like the ripcord twirl, seen in the wild here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVpR6SxWsM4&list=RDIVquC0jqCXs&t=2m2s and taught here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbyoOPc0rHQ, one of my favorite swing ending flourishes but one that takes too much time to be executed in an 8-count swing window > This is a tangent, but that flourish looks like only four beats to me?

9 years

Re: [Callers] Rates for private events (weddings etc)?

by Martha Wild via Callers

After having some serious delays at weddings (like 5 hours between when we were supposed to be on and when we actually went on) I now (either as a caller or with one of my bands) charge at least $100-$150 per band/caller person, but include the caveat that a half hour delay is free, but every half hour after that is an extra $50 (not per person but total). This seems to be enough to have made people be a lot tighter on getting to the dancing on time. Martha > On Mar 26, 2016, at 11:55 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > I would ask for about 3x more for a wedding then for an evening of dancing: > > * weddings are a lot of hassle > > * you're only playing/calling for a short time, but you need to be there very early and schedules are not reliable at weddings -- this may be worse for bands than callers > > * people spend so much at most weddings these days that they're typically willing to pay whatever (once I let someone negotiate me down a lot by them saying they were trying to save money and when I got therei found out that the food cost more per guest then they were paying each of us) > > * I'd charge much less or free for a friend, especially if I would be at their wedding anyway: it's like a wedding gift > > On Mar 26, 2016 2:23 PM, "Michael Fuerst via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > Central Illinois where I live? $35-50, although our local callers would probably do such for free. > NYC? $2000, but $3000 if on a weekend > > Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 <tel:217%20239%205844> > > > On Saturday, March 26, 2016 1:13 PM, Maia McCormick via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > > > Hey folks, > > I've just been asked to call a wedding, and I don't have a good idea for what the going rate for these things is. What do you all charge for a wedding (say, 30 mins-an hour of dancing)? (And how might you adjust this rate for NYC?) > > Thanks, > Maia > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net <http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net <http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net> > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

9 years

[Callers] Calling and timing

by Roger Hayes via Callers

Some thoughts on timing, in part inspired by the recent discussion of "Young Adult Rose" (btw, I hope we get a series of dances up to and including "Revered Elder Rose" -- alternatively "That Old Rascal Rose"). As the dancers get the dance into their body, I'll shift from calling early for direction to calling on the beat for timing. Of course it would be ideal to be able to do both; I think it's possible with artful word choice, but not always, not for me. Sometimes I get the control thing going and want to exert a strong influence over the timing -- "balance Now!". It's often more fun to shut up and let the dancers sort out the timing - it's great to see people adjust to make a dance flow. Sometimes I enjoy dancing a dance with imperfect timing or flow, just to see how the hall will adjust and make sense of it. A lot of the figures we dance are not so precise as we think they are; for example, many "allemande once" figures are really more like 1/2, to reverse direction. This is why I prefer to teach with "far enough so you can..." rather than "exactly N" -- I want the dancers to think about flow and connection, not about completing one figure before attending to the next. On the other hand, I'm a total curmudgeon about lazy not-quite-far-enough circles. And being late for your neighbor? Awful. Breaks down the trust that builds up when we're all there for each other, on time and in the right place. - Roger Hayes

9 years

[Callers] Thoughts on B2/A1 swings and having time to flourish

by tavi merrill via Callers

Hola all, So Amy's followup to her "Is this a new dance" query brought up something i've been thinking about for a while. (Amy & Tom - i'm collecting it with Tom's B2 modification and attributing it as Wimmer, variation Hinds.) A 16-count swing does go on forever. But it is also awesome - and i mean truly awesome - to have a full 12-count swing plus 4 counts to pull off one of the more time consuming flourishes (like the ripcord twirl, seen in the wild here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVpR6SxWsM4&list=RDIVquC0jqCXs&t=2m2s and taught here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbyoOPc0rHQ, one of my favorite swing ending flourishes but one that takes too much time to be executed in an 8-count swing window). I know attitudes on twirls vary, so i should state clearly my opinion: i think flourishes, while neither traditional nor intrinsic to our dance form, add a lot to contra when they are executed safely, consensually, and in a manner mindful of the foursome and set as a whole. That to me implies that when and how to use twirls well - and how to time them - can be a potential style point when dances allow for them, particularly where a 16-count swing may bore or tire dancers, yet allows plenty of time to flourish and arrive on time for the next move. We could, as choreographers, maybe even write more 16-count swings for use with the crowds that love to flourish. Less subtle: If you're calling a 16-count swing, why not point out to the dancers there's no excuse for arriving late after a flourish? The A1 placement of the partner swing in Amy's dance "Feelin' the Bern" also appeals to me for a quite specific reason. Some callers are of a mind that every dance should end with a swing, while others (this camp including myself) feel that getting back on the microphone to change the final B to accomplish that is bad form, but do appreciate the elegance of being with or at least aimed toward your partner at the end of a dance and try to facilitate that effect when possible, and others don't give a crap about where dancers are facing when the music stops. (NOTE: This is to acknowledge the various camps, not to launch a thread on which approach is better!!!) Flowing from this, i fully support A1 partner swings, because it's another way to accomplish the aimed-toward-partner-when-dance-ends thing that doesn't involve an A1 circle L or slide. ;-) On a slightly different but related note: As i work to assemble a DJ repertoire of contradanceable EDM, i've noticed that many remixes are perfectly contra-ready save for a "build to drop" element that occurs in the music where the B2 ends, in effect adding from 4 to 8 counts to the B2 but usually only once through. Rather than re-working the track to eliminate the build/drop element, which would create the feeling something substantial is missing, I'm toying with the notion of pairing such material with B2 swings so dancers get a slightly longer swing during that iteration of the dance. Thinking getting back on microphone to say "keep swinging" and then prompt the A1 with recorded music isn't such bad form. Open to feedback on that. I'd appreciate if folks keep responses to this message positive/constructive in tone (vis-a-vis argumentative or dismissive) as i've been super depressed lately and positivity helps. Hope you all are having a good holiday weekend whether you're celebrating Easter or recovering from a raucous Purim or burning off all those Newroz treats or still doing laundry after Holi (did i get them all?!) Tavi

9 years

Re: [Callers] Young Adult Rose

by Bob Morgan via Callers

As I visualize the figure I'm thinking that shadow allemande right is less than one, essentially enough to take the dancers around each other to change direction only but changing from outside to inside track or vice versa. They're then heading back on the other track to balance and swing (actually I'd prefer to go without the balance to maintain momentum, but it elongates the swing) in the right orientation to enter the swing properly. If you call it as a whole allemande I'd agree left is easier for entering the swing. I've never had an outright rebellion, a fair amount of misinterpretation from caller and dancers and dances just not working but they're generally fairly amenable. Bob On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 12:41 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > In Another Nice Combination, dancers Pass P by R to Shadow DSD which is a > right (handed) move, before returning to a partner swing. There is no > choice required since DSD is almost always right shoulder. > > Rich > > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Jonathan Sivier via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> I've not encountered problems with dancers not doing the figures >> described in the dance, but I have experienced a certain amount of >> dissatisfaction when dancing dances with similar figures. I think there is >> a tendency to want to alternate hands/shoulders as you encounter other >> dancers. Similar to a hey or Right and Left Grand if you pass one person >> by the right the tendency is to want to interact with the next by the >> left. This can be overcome, but requires thinking about what the next >> figure is rather than just doing it and it can make it difficult to "get >> into the groove" the way many dancers like to do. I don't think this is >> always the case, but I have certainly come across occasions when it just >> seemed like we were turning by the wrong hand or whatever. >> >> Jonathan >> ----- >> Jonathan Sivier >> Caller of Contra, Square, English and Early American Dances >> jsivier AT illinois DOT edu >> Dance Page: http://www.sivier.me/dance_leader.html >> ----- >> Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? >> A: It depends on what dance you call! >> >> On 3/27/2016 3:24 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote: >> >>> I called Young Adult Rose last night and experienced a near-complete >>> dancer revolt about the shadow allemande. The dance is written with a >>> circle left 3/4, pass P by R along the line then allemande shadow R 1x, >>> before coming back to P for a balance and swing. The dancers all >>> _really_ wanted to do the allemande by the left. I tried calling it a >>> few times with the R hand, then gave up and called it L and they were >>> all much happier. Anyone else experienced this? >>> >>> Kalia >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

9 years

[Callers] Young Adult Rose

by Michael Fuerst via Callers

May this be your biggest disappointment in life. :) (Allemande left works much better, because it gives dancers a better direction for starting the swing.When calling the dance on a Saturday I probably use left shoulder gypsy instead of the allemande.) Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844

9 years

Re: [Callers] Rates for private events (weddings etc)?

by John Sweeney via Callers

Hi Maia, First you have to decide whether you are running a business or enjoying a hobby. I do both and the rates are completely different. As a hobby I charge whatever the gig can afford, going as low as zero. But that has to be stuff that you want to do for fun, for friends, for charity, or whatever. As a business you need to take into account ALL your expenses: equipment, depreciation, travel costs, your time preparing for the gig and getting to and from the gig, set up and break down time, insurance, licenses for playing music, etc. How long they dance for is completely irrelevant. You are providing your services for that evening and you can’t do another gig at the same time. They are paying you for using up your whole evening regardless of how much dancing they want. I have done weddings where I have only called three dances, and weddings where I have called 15 dances. In both cases the bride and groom were delighted, they got exactly what they wanted and lots of great photos and memories. The charge was the same for both! A good place to start is by using Google or Yellow Pages to contact a few local DJs. Ask them how much they charge for a wedding in the relevant area. You should be charging at least as much as the DJ as you do the same job PLUS calling! I charge a flat rate plus petrol for all private gigs. Hope that helps. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England <mailto:john@modernjive.com> john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 <http://www.modernjive.com> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs <http://www.contrafusion.co.uk> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent From: Maia McCormick via Callers [mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net] Sent: 26 March 2016 18:13 To: callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net Subject: [Callers] Rates for private events (weddings etc)? Hey folks, I've just been asked to call a wedding, and I don't have a good idea for what the going rate for these things is. What do you all charge for a wedding (say, 30 mins-an hour of dancing)? (And how might you adjust this rate for NYC?) Thanks, Maia

9 years

[Callers] festival gigs

by Jeanette Mill via Callers

Any hints for quick and efficient ways to include the new dancers who join at the bottom of sets at festivals? If they have a good experience they are future regular dancers.

9 years

Re: [Callers] Rates for private events (weddings etc)?

by Erik Hoffman via Callers

It would be good if, as you reply, you say where you’re from. Quite clearly the cost of a wedding in NYC or the SF Bay Area might be more than in Missoula, MT. Still: Musicians tend to undercharge. I’m no exception. I love what I do, and can be a pushover on price. With that said: we tend to underrate our business. This is probably because most of us don’t do it as a business, but as a vocation for which we at times get paid. If you’ve ever booked Wild Asparagus, you know that George books dances as a business. You might think he’s trying to wring every last dollar out of you, but, this is their primary source of income, and they’ve done a fantastic job of building they’re reputation—their “brand”—and now ask for what they know they deserve. Jay Ungar once told me that he knows all the caterers in the Hudson Valley. When he negotiates a price he tries to find out who the caterer is. If it’s a $500 a plate business, he charges accordingly. If it’s a point-person organizing the pot-luck, again, if he wants the gig, he suggest a much lower fee. Right after I moved to the Bay Area, I got a call about gig, a fund-raiser for a school. Every school I’d ever done such an event for was scrounging for any extra money they could make. I said, “we like to make $200 a person.” “OK, that’s fine,” was the immediate response. That seemed strange. It wasn’t until after the gig that I understood the Head Royce School in Oakland is a private school for the CEO types. It was one of the more interesting gigs—though it was also one where it was clear we were the servants, and should keep to our little corner, play music, and, perhaps get a few people dancing… The interest was just in watching the uber-rich of the 90s in Oakland do their thing. So this note is a strong suggestion: don’t undercharge. You may feel (as I do) that charging $1500 for three of us to play music is a lot, as I do. But often it’s still one of the least expensive thing on the budget. Well, hall rent might be only $500 to $1000, but the rest of many of these types of things can run into the thousands. And, don’t be afraid to compare to other types of service performers: Call a wedding band and ask what they charge—it’s usually a lot more than what we charge. If you’re doing it solo with recordings, call a wedding DJ and find out what they charge. ~erik Hoffman oakland, ca I charge $150 for a wedding and $50 more if alcohol is served. JoLaine On Mar 26, 2016 5:29 PM, "Dave Casserly via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: I've only called weddings for good friends, and I do that for free. But I've played a lot of weddings, and I generally would not take a wedding gig unless it paid at least 2-3x what a normal dance would pay. For a single caller, assuming you're NOT bringing sound or being in charge of the band, you'll probably have some MC duties, at least. It's been that way at pretty much all of the weddings where I've played for a dance. As Alan and Jeff said, it doesn't matter how much time there will be actual dancing; you'll end up being there for quite a while in any event with setup, etc. Keeping your time to a minimum isn't going to be a priority; I've played weddings where the band sets up and finishes sound check literally three hours before going on. I recommend getting the couple on the phone immediately so you can gauge what they're looking for. Generally, I think about it in terms of how long I need to be there. If it's a local gig, I'd start with something like $150 for the first hour I'd be there, and $50/hr after that, plus travel. But I'd ask for more if I had any duties other than playing (or calling), such as setting up sound, providing recorded music, etc. Typically, you won't be at a wedding for less than three or four hours, at least, so you're looking at $250-500. I live in DC, which is not quite as expensive as NY, so adjust accordingly. I am generally willing to play or call for dances for community events and other one night stands at a much lower rate. With weddings, though, the couple's paying LOTS of money for stuff that isn't as valuable as the music, and I'm unlikely to move much off the initial ask, unless it's a very close friend, in which case I'd do it for free. -Dave On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Alan Winston via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: First off, you're not charging for the number of minutes of dancing. You're charging for your experience, expertise, and skill, showing up on time and being ready to do it, waiting around as necessary, traveling if needed, being mellow if (when) things go over and your time is cut, etc. What are you being asked to deliver for your fee? Are they booking their own band and arranging their own sound? For the wedding dance I just did in Berkeley - probably a comparable market to NYC - they provided sound, I organized a band for them, each band member and I were promised $300 for playing for the dance (and then a more for playing in the ceremony and some incidental music). They actually paid me more than the agreed-upon amount, so I don't think they thought I was gouging., For a friend's wedding I might work free. If you want to be paid appropriately, state your price and don't waver. If you want to get the gig regardless, ask them their budget and quote less than that. When asked to arrange musicians I make it clear that I can't quote before I know who's available but state a range ($1000-$1500) and I also ask their budget and then adjust the number of musicians (two good ones is fine, three better) so we all get paid enough within their budget. -- Alan

9 years

Re: [Callers] Rates for private events (weddings etc)?

by JoLaine Jones-Pokorney via Callers

I charge $150 for a wedding and $50 more if alcohol is served. JoLaine On Mar 26, 2016 5:29 PM, "Dave Casserly via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I've only called weddings for good friends, and I do that for free. But > I've played a lot of weddings, and I generally would not take a wedding gig > unless it paid at least 2-3x what a normal dance would pay. > > For a single caller, assuming you're NOT bringing sound or being in charge > of the band, you'll probably have some MC duties, at least. It's been that > way at pretty much all of the weddings where I've played for a dance. As > Alan and Jeff said, it doesn't matter how much time there will be actual > dancing; you'll end up being there for quite a while in any event with > setup, etc. Keeping your time to a minimum isn't going to be a priority; > I've played weddings where the band sets up and finishes sound check > literally three hours before going on. > > I recommend getting the couple on the phone immediately so you can gauge > what they're looking for. Generally, I think about it in terms of how long > I need to be there. If it's a local gig, I'd start with something like > $150 for the first hour I'd be there, and $50/hr after that, plus travel. > But I'd ask for more if I had any duties other than playing (or calling), > such as setting up sound, providing recorded music, etc. Typically, you > won't be at a wedding for less than three or four hours, at least, so > you're looking at $250-500. I live in DC, which is not quite as expensive > as NY, so adjust accordingly. > > I am generally willing to play or call for dances for community events and > other one night stands at a much lower rate. With weddings, though, the > couple's paying LOTS of money for stuff that isn't as valuable as the > music, and I'm unlikely to move much off the initial ask, unless it's a > very close friend, in which case I'd do it for free. > > -Dave > > On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Alan Winston via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> First off, you're not charging for the number of minutes of dancing. >> You're charging for your experience, expertise, and skill, showing up on >> time and being ready to do it, waiting around as necessary, traveling if >> needed, being mellow if (when) things go over and your time is cut, etc. >> >> What are you being asked to deliver for your fee? Are they booking their >> own band and arranging their own sound? >> >> For the wedding dance I just did in Berkeley - probably a comparable >> market to NYC - they provided sound, I organized a band for them, each band >> member and I were promised $300 for playing for the dance (and then a more >> for playing in the ceremony and some incidental music). They actually paid >> me more than the agreed-upon amount, so I don't think they thought I was >> gouging., >> >> For a friend's wedding I might work free. >> >> If you want to be paid appropriately, state your price and don't waver. >> If you want to get the gig regardless, ask them their budget and quote less >> than that. >> >> When asked to arrange musicians I make it clear that I can't quote before >> I know who's available but state a range ($1000-$1500) and I also ask their >> budget and then adjust the number of musicians (two good ones is fine, >> three better) so we all get paid enough within their budget. >> >> -- Alan >> >> >> On 3/26/16 11:13 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote: >> >> Hey folks, >> >> I've just been asked to call a wedding, and I don't have a good idea for >> what the going rate for these things is. What do you all charge for a >> wedding (say, 30 mins-an hour of dancing)? (And how might you adjust this >> rate for NYC?) >> >> Thanks, >> Maia >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing listCallers@lists.sharedweight.nethttp://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> > > > -- > David Casserly > (cell) 781 258-2761 > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

9 years

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Import1 March 2016