Import1 September 2015

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86 discussions

by Dave Merrill via Callers

My only observation to add to the shadow swing melee is that while not completely closed to them, i'm cognizant of the several reasons they are a less than optimal choice. Given these drawbacks of the figure, i would not use a shadow swing in a situation with very long sets. If the choreography of the dance is so awesome i feel a need to use it, and the end effects aren't prohibitive, i'd consider running it in a situation with short sets (much as i'd use for a 1s active dance). Why? Because if anyone feels the need to escape their shadow, they can get to an end of the set and either jump out or rumble into another set sooner. I think this offers dancers the best chance to fix a potential issue without singling anyone out or creating a dynamic on the floor more awkward than the choice of a shadow swing dance (albeit an exceptional one!) already did.

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Callers] Problem dancers / Crying Wolf

by Alan Winston via Callers

Here's the thing: - There really is harassment, creepy behavior, etc. - There really are cases where third parties see those things and they aren't actually there in the eyes of the perceived victim So organizers have to keep their eyes open and review things on a case by case basis. Because one organizer has seen unjustified third-party charges of harrassment doesn't mean this particular case is one of those; because another organizer can multiply real examples of unacceptable behavior doesn't mean this particular case is one of them. It doesn't, in my view, help discourse to tell people who have real experiences on one side or the other of that that they're not taking the situation seriously enough / taking the situation too seriously and, implicitly, that your experiences trump their experiences. -- Alan On 9/9/15 1:44 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers wrote: > > Harassment is real. It's widespread, and pretending it isn't hurts > people and keeps people away from our dances. > > Things I have personally witnessed, and when subsequently asked the > dancer whether anything was unusual, they confirmed: > > One dancer has a habit of grabbing hip *just* at the butt-line. One of > the young women was 15. > > Another dancer intentionally threw a quarter on the ground in front of > a young 20-something lady. I watched in horror as she bent over and > picked it up as he leered. > > One dancer did a frontways dip to a 20-something lady which included > torso-torso frontal contact. No permission was asked. > > Another dancer came in drunk / high and was dancing wild. > > Another dancer has a habit of intentionally shoulder-checked men who > have called him out on his creepiness. > > Another dancer was swinging way too close. Turns out he was following > a minor around and asking completely inappropriate questions. > > And I have more of these stories. Seriously, the list goes on and on. > > I've been dancing far fewer years than many on this list, and danced > at many different dances - this isn't limited to one dance community. > And these are just the stories I've verified. > So are all of your eyes closed? > > So... Yeah. I absolutely think that we should keep our eyes open. I > think we should calmly and privately inquire when we think we see > inappropriate behavior. We should be absolutely receptive that > sometimes behavior is seen and a victim is too afraid to step forward > on their own. > > And we should stop with such flippant and potentially dangerous > phrases like "crying wolf" or that people need to just grow up and > "act like an adult" because bad stuff happens. > > On Sep 9, 2015 4:04 PM, "Martha Wild via Callers" > <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > > Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly that other men > were being creepy with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her, > she said there was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and > swing her and occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance. > The more I spoke with the two of them the more I wanted to yell at > the woman - run fast, very fast, as far away from this control > freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it was not my place to warn her > right in front of him. No surprise they never returned. > > Martha > > > On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote: > >> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's >> fire" issue applies here, though. It would if there were several >> *different* women complaining about one man... >> >> -------------------- >> Lindsay Morris >> CEO, TSMworks >> Tel. 1-859-539-9900 <tel:1-859-539-9900> >> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com <mailto:lindsay@tsmworks.com> >> >> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner >> <contraron(a)gmail.com <mailto:contraron@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi Lindsay, >> >> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if >> my brevity comes off as bruskness. >> >> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra. >> >> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out >> the source. Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high >> level of ensuring that we ask open-ended questions, and not >> leading questions. >> >> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular >> announcements about us being available for any reason. >> Usually 4-7 members of our board attend any dance. >> >> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, >> if you're interested in more specifics. >> >> I would also caution about making such definitive statements >> as "just an accusation". In my experience, where there's >> smoke, there's fire. For every accusation, there's five >> people who are too uncomfortable to speak up. >> >> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of >> issues. The biggest benefit is simple: >> >> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe >> it's a simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a >> clear boundary drawn. But wait until there's a pile of >> complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the >> resolution will need to be more severe for the offender. >> >> Best regards, >> Ron Blechner >> >> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" >> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: >> >> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions >> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutio…> >> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy >> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-pol…> >> are thoughtful and useful documents. >> >> We have a different problem here. >> >> One woman often complains to board members about men she >> sees as creepers or sexual predators. She reports their >> misbehavior on behalf of their victims. The victims don't >> initiate these reports.* >> >> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or >> inappropriate. Recently one of the "victims" clarified >> that her discomfort with the man was a year ago and she'd >> long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in >> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman >> was unhappy about some nameless thing he'd done. >> >> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel >> harassed should talk to her about it. We feel that's the >> Board's job, not hers. >> >> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even >> inventing - "naughty-dancer" problems. >> >> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual >> predator, his wife has to wonder if it's true. This adds >> to any marital tensions they may already have. So, while >> this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, >> it seems to me that she's committing violence. >> >> How should we handle this? >> >> * I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - >> i.e., the victim has to speak up (and then our >> process will usually fix simple miscommunication issues). >> * We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine >> victims know who to talk to. >> >> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one >> person's issues from poisoning the atmosphere of a >> mostly friendly dance? >> >> ____ >> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and >> complaining, so advocacy may be a good thing. But that's >> a different discussion. In these situations, there's no >> victim; there's no predator; there's just an accusation >> with little to back it up. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Callers] Problem dancers / Crying Wolf

by Lindsay Morris via Callers

Well, I don't want to fan the flames in this normally cordial and helpful community. However, I'm here, and seeing what I'm seeing, and asking for perspective. -------------------- Lindsay Morris CEO, TSMworks Tel. 1-859-539-9900 lindsay(a)tsmworks.com On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Harassment is real. It's widespread, and pretending it isn't hurts people > and keeps people away from our dances. > > Things I have personally witnessed, and when subsequently asked the dancer > whether anything was unusual, they confirmed: > > One dancer has a habit of grabbing hip *just* at the butt-line. One of the > young women was 15. > > Another dancer intentionally threw a quarter on the ground in front of a > young 20-something lady. I watched in horror as she bent over and picked it > up as he leered. > > One dancer did a frontways dip to a 20-something lady which included > torso-torso frontal contact. No permission was asked. > > Another dancer came in drunk / high and was dancing wild. > > Another dancer has a habit of intentionally shoulder-checked men who have > called him out on his creepiness. > > Another dancer was swinging way too close. Turns out he was following a > minor around and asking completely inappropriate questions. > > And I have more of these stories. Seriously, the list goes on and on. > > I've been dancing far fewer years than many on this list, and danced at > many different dances - this isn't limited to one dance community. And > these are just the stories I've verified. > So are all of your eyes closed? > > So... Yeah. I absolutely think that we should keep our eyes open. I think > we should calmly and privately inquire when we think we see inappropriate > behavior. We should be absolutely receptive that sometimes behavior is seen > and a victim is too afraid to step forward on their own. > > And we should stop with such flippant and potentially dangerous phrases > like "crying wolf" or that people need to just grow up and "act like an > adult" because bad stuff happens. > On Sep 9, 2015 4:04 PM, "Martha Wild via Callers" < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly that other men were >> being creepy with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her, she said there >> was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and swing her and >> occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance. The more I spoke with >> the two of them the more I wanted to yell at the woman - run fast, very >> fast, as far away from this control freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it >> was not my place to warn her right in front of him. No surprise they never >> returned. >> >> Martha >> >> >> On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote: >> >> Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's fire" >> issue applies here, though. It would if there were several *different* >> women complaining about one man... >> >> -------------------- >> Lindsay Morris >> CEO, TSMworks >> Tel. 1-859-539-9900 >> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com >> >> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Lindsay, >>> >>> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity >>> comes off as bruskness. >>> >>> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra. >>> >>> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source. >>> Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we >>> ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions. >>> >>> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular >>> announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members >>> of our board attend any dance. >>> >>> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're >>> interested in more specifics. >>> >>> I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an >>> accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every >>> accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up. >>> >>> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. >>> The biggest benefit is simple: >>> >>> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a >>> simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. >>> But wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost >>> dancers and the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Ron Blechner >>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" < >>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions >>>> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutio…> >>>> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy >>>> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-pol…> >>>> are thoughtful and useful documents. >>>> >>>> We have a different problem here. >>>> >>>> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as >>>> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of >>>> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.* >>>> >>>> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. >>>> Recently one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man >>>> was a year ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The >>>> man in question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy >>>> about some nameless thing he'd done. >>>> >>>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed >>>> should talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers. >>>> >>>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing - >>>> "naughty-dancer" problems. >>>> >>>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife >>>> has to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may >>>> already have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the >>>> face, it seems to me that she's committing violence. >>>> >>>> How should we handle this? >>>> >>>> - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim >>>> has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple >>>> miscommunication issues). >>>> - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims >>>> know who to talk to. >>>> >>>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues >>>> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance? >>>> >>>> ____ >>>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, >>>> so advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In >>>> these situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an >>>> accusation with little to back it up. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Callers] Problem dancers / Crying Wolf

by Martha Wild via Callers

Yeah, we had a guy at one dance complain bitterly that other men were being creepy with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her, she said there was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and swing her and occasionally speak to her with advice on the dance. The more I spoke with the two of them the more I wanted to yell at the woman - run fast, very fast, as far away from this control freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it was not my place to warn her right in front of him. No surprise they never returned. Martha On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote: > Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's fire" issue applies here, though. It would if there were several different women complaining about one man... > > -------------------- > Lindsay Morris > CEO, TSMworks > Tel. 1-859-539-9900 > lindsay(a)tsmworks.com > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Lindsay, > > I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity comes off as bruskness. > > These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra. > > As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source. Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions. > > We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members of our board attend any dance. > > You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're interested in more specifics. > > I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up. > > That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The biggest benefit is simple: > > Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender. > > Best regards, > Ron Blechner > > On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy are thoughtful and useful documents. > > We have a different problem here. > > One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.* > > Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about some nameless thing he'd done. > > This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers. > > It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing - "naughty-dancer" problems. > > When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, it seems to me that she's committing violence. > > How should we handle this? > I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple miscommunication issues). > We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know who to talk to. > But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance? > > ____ > * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an accusation with little to back it up. > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Callers] Fw: Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

by Michael Fuerst via Callers

Luke: Your assessment is inaccurate. This is not a matter where levity is acceptable.Creating a situation which could force someone into close, almost intimate proximity with a person perceived as emotionally or physically threatening is inappropriate.A lesser problem is that one can get a shadow who one considers personable, but very unpleasant for swinging (for example, due to either height difference, or a body position or weight distribution which unnecessarily strains one's own body). Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 1:53 PM, Luke Donforth <luke.donev(a)gmail.com> wrote: Mr. Fuerst, I again think your attempt to inject levity into a conversation have come across as crass and inappropriate. Asking about shadow swings on a list for calling is pertinent; joking about men groping women dancers isn't. On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Asking about how to appropriately do dances with shadow swings seems like asking how men can appropriately grope women during a dance. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 1:41 PM, Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> wrote: One can also be miffed at having to repeatedly swing a shadow who one finds very pleasant as a person, but just awkward to swing with (too tall, too short, distributes his/her weight during a swing in a way that strains some part of you). Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 1:30 PM, Mac Mckeever via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: I agree with Michael - I can't see any reason I would want to call a dance with a shadow swing. If the rest of the dance is that good - modify it to get rid of that swing. Chances are you are going to make at least one dancer very uncomfortable. I avoid any figures that introduce that risk (not a big fan of men's chains either). There are lots of great dances out there - so I don't see a need to knowingly offend dancers with the few dances that contain risky figures. Warning them ahead of time creates a very awkward situation on the floor and someone is going to lose. Mac McKeever ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Perry Shafran via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: "callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2015 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers? I'm going to go with Andrea's well-written note on this. I understand that the goal is to prevent people from dancing with people who really make them uncomfortable (i.e. creepers). However, if you suggest "if you need to make changes, do so now", that will open up the potential for people to refuse a shadow for ANY reason (they smell, they're too fat, they're too old, they're not my BFF, they're the same gender, they're a beginner, whatever), and that could cause a whole world of hurt - especially in a community where we welcome all and celebrate differences in people. There is no graceful way to do this, really, that I can think of. For the most part, if there is someone that a person does not want to encounter in a dance, much less be a shadow, that person will find a different line to dance in. At least that has been my experience. Callers should not be encouraging people to find someone "better" than the potluck shadow that they got. I would suggest not calling a dance with a shadow swing - that would ward off potential problems with shadows people don't want to swing and also prevent the hurt that would come with suggesting people make changes for whatever reason. Perry From: Maia McCormick via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: "callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2015 11:06 AM Subject: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers? Hey all, First, a disclaimer: Some people on this listserv thing shadow swings are problematic. Some don't see any issue with them. This is NOT the conversation I want to have in this thread; I ask that you respond to the question I'm asking and do not debate my premise--at least not in this particular thread. This should help keep this thread on track and hopefully reduce excess noise and go-nowhere discussions on this listserv. Thanks! Anyway, the actual question I wanted to ask (whew!)-- There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the potential harms of shadow swing dances? I was considering, at the beginning of the dance, having dancers identify their shadow and mentioning, "this will be a shadow swing dance, so if you need to make any changes, do so now" (or something like that)--haven't gotten the wording down-pat, but the idea is giving dancers advance warning of a shadow swing so they can move (thereby changing their shadow) if they need to. Any thoughts on this method? Suggestions of others? Cheers.Maia _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net -- Luke Donforth Luke.Donforth(a)gmail.com

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Callers] Problem dancers / Crying Wolf

by Ron Blechner via Callers

Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be very, very careful about making a definitive statement about something being "just an accusation", especially when in your example, there was a second problem - even if it was a year earlier. On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's fire" issue > applies here, though. It would if there were several *different* women > complaining about one man... > > -------------------- > Lindsay Morris > CEO, TSMworks > Tel. 1-859-539-9900 > lindsay(a)tsmworks.com > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Lindsay, >> >> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity >> comes off as bruskness. >> >> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra. >> >> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source. >> Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we >> ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions. >> >> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular >> announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members >> of our board attend any dance. >> >> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're >> interested in more specifics. >> >> I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an >> accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every >> accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up. >> >> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The >> biggest benefit is simple: >> >> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a >> simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. >> But wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost >> dancers and the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender. >> >> Best regards, >> Ron Blechner >> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions >>> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutio…> >>> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy >>> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-pol…> >>> are thoughtful and useful documents. >>> >>> We have a different problem here. >>> >>> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as >>> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of >>> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.* >>> >>> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently >>> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year >>> ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in >>> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about >>> some nameless thing he'd done. >>> >>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should >>> talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers. >>> >>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing - >>> "naughty-dancer" problems. >>> >>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has >>> to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already >>> have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, >>> it seems to me that she's committing violence. >>> >>> How should we handle this? >>> >>> - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim >>> has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple >>> miscommunication issues). >>> - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know >>> who to talk to. >>> >>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues >>> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance? >>> >>> ____ >>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so >>> advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these >>> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an >>> accusation with little to back it up. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Callers] Creating a safe dance space (was Shadow Swing Disclaimers)

by Perry Shafran via Callers

I think the real crux of the issue is this. How far are we willing to go to create a safe dance space? The problem is, if you are going to say "if you are uncomfortable with your shadow, feel free to move", that could cause a whole new realm of problems for dancers. How would you feel if, after someone identified you as their shadow, they moved to another line? If given this option, I foresee people moving for all sorts of reasons that I identified in my previous email (too fat, too old, too new, etc), and none of them were related to creepers. The caller is there to help build community. How is it building community of you suggest "if you don't want to dance with someone, then move"? You are basically inviting people to refuse to interact with people for ANY reason - creeper or otherwise. I have never, in 15 years of dancing, heard a caller suggest avoiding dancing with any person. Building community means that everyone is welcome and treated like they are welcome. Even society's outcasts. Of course we should ALL be on alert for people who behave inappropriately, but I think we are beginning to move away from a shared sense of community to promoting dancing with only people you are the most comfortable with. Which basically means cliques. It is a risk to dance with brand new people who come to your dance. You know NOTHING about a person who comes to your dance. Suggesting that you may wish to avoid this person because that person might be creepy - or might not be - really seems harmful to community building. Please note that I am not saying ignore creepers. If there is a problem dancer, the community needs to deal with that person and get that person out of the community if necessary. But if interactions with people might somehow become harmful and we wish to ward off all potential problems, then don't call dances with shadow swings, and maybe we ought not to call dances with neighbor swings. Then you could never have to swing any person not of your choosing. Perry From: Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Eric Black <eric(a)eric-black.com> Cc: callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 10:01 AM Subject: [Callers] Creating a safe dance space (was Shadow Swing Disclaimers) Erik,I'm alarmed at reading your reply in the shadow swing thread.I have seen, as a dancer, caller, and organizer, at a variety of dances, far too many incidents of inappropriate behavior. I refuse to simply wash my hands and say "oh, it's not the caller's place to worry about this." A caller is the MC, the coordinator, and often from the stage we can see everything happening in the room. It absolutely is our paid job to help create a safe dance space.I want to focus on what seems to be the crux of your statement from the shadow swing email:" that interpersonal conflicts will happen, and yet social interactions are required. They understand how to make everyone work together. Family schisms are inevitable."How many "conflicts" does it take before we take responsibility and address inappropriate behavior at a dance? I have seen many occasions where *one* conflict means a dancer who is new never returns, or an experienced dancer never returns, or they wind up having to spend every night avoiding *that creepy dude*. I know first hand what having a *single* bad experience can mean for a dancer.So if we leave these as "inevitable", then the people we lose aren't the people doing the inappropriate behavior - no, those jerks stay, stubbornly - we lose the nicer people who were victimized, harassed, made uncomfortable.Is that the kind of dance environment you want to promote?I don't believe so.Instead, asking questions, as Maia did, about things a caller can do to create a safe dance space, is essential to long term community building. This doesn't mean we are "dance police" or do anything extraordinary. But it does mean that we should be considerate to dancers and not write off their bad experiences as things that they need to merely tolerate and "be an adult" as you put it.Sincerely, Ron Blechner _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Callers] Problem dancers / Crying Wolf

by Lindsay Morris via Callers

Appreciate that. Don't think the "where there's smoke there's fire" issue applies here, though. It would if there were several *different* women complaining about one man... -------------------- Lindsay Morris CEO, TSMworks Tel. 1-859-539-9900 lindsay(a)tsmworks.com On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Lindsay, > > I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity > comes off as bruskness. > > These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra. > > As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source. > Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we > ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions. > > We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular announcements > about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members of our board > attend any dance. > > You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're > interested in more specifics. > > I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an > accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every > accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up. > > That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The > biggest benefit is simple: > > Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a simple > misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But wait > until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the > resolution will need to be more severe for the offender. > > Best regards, > Ron Blechner > On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions >> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutio…> >> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy >> <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-pol…> >> are thoughtful and useful documents. >> >> We have a different problem here. >> >> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as creepers >> or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of their >> victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.* >> >> Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently >> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year >> ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in >> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about >> some nameless thing he'd done. >> >> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should >> talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers. >> >> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing - >> "naughty-dancer" problems. >> >> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has >> to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already >> have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, >> it seems to me that she's committing violence. >> >> How should we handle this? >> >> - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim >> has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple >> miscommunication issues). >> - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know >> who to talk to. >> >> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues >> from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance? >> >> ____ >> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so >> advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these >> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an >> accusation with little to back it up. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >>

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Callers] Problem dancers / Crying Wolf

by Ron Blechner via Callers

Hi Lindsay, I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my brevity comes off as bruskness. These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra. As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the source. Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring that we ask open-ended questions, and not leading questions. We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7 members of our board attend any dance. You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if you're interested in more specifics. I would also caution about making such definitive statements as "just an accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire. For every accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak up. That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of issues. The biggest benefit is simple: Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary drawn. But wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost dancers and the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender. Best regards, Ron Blechner On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions > <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutio…> > on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy > <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-pol…> > are thoughtful and useful documents. > > We have a different problem here. > > One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as creepers > or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of their > victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.* > > Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently > one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year > ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in > question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about > some nameless thing he'd done. > > This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should > talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers. > > It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing - > "naughty-dancer" problems. > > When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has > to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already > have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, > it seems to me that she's committing violence. > > How should we handle this? > > - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim > has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple > miscommunication issues). > - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know > who to talk to. > > But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues > from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance? > > ____ > * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so > advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these > situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an > accusation with little to back it up. > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

8 years, 7 months

[Callers] Problem dancers / Crying Wolf

by Lindsay Morris via Callers

Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutio…> on dealing with problem dancers, and the CDU Policy <http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-pol…> are thoughtful and useful documents. We have a different problem here. One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on behalf of their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.* Many others *don't* see these men as creepy or inappropriate. Recently one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was a year ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction. The man in question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy about some nameless thing he'd done. This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed should talk to her about it. We feel that's the Board's job, not hers. It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing - "naughty-dancer" problems. When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his wife has to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may already have. So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the face, it seems to me that she's committing violence. How should we handle this? - I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim has to speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple miscommunication issues). - We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know who to talk to. But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's issues from poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance? ____ * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and complaining, so advocacy may be a good thing. But that's a different discussion. In these situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an accusation with little to back it up.

8 years, 7 months

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