15 Jun
2016
15 Jun
'16
5:08 p.m.
I just got a letter from ASCAP asking payment of license fees for use of
recorded and copyright materials at our dances.
If my organization ran just our contra dances, I'd tell them to take a
hike - or not respond at all - with the argument that our contras use
only traditional public domain music, and not recorded music nor
copyright arrangements.
However, my organization also has waltz, swing, DJ, and Cajun/zydeco
series, where I don't think I can make the same assertion.
The net is I'll probably go ahead and pay.
My question: What encounters (and resolutions) have other groups had
with ASCAP (and BMI too, for that matter).
Thanks, RL
--
Rob Lindauer
15 Jun
15 Jun
5:26 p.m.
I've been curious about the same sort of question. My experience so far is
that the contra dance world pretends there is no ASCAP, and usually vice
versa.
If you don't mind sharing, Rob, what kind of rates are they asking you for?
Also, are they asking about your dance in particular, or about the venue? I
had thought that an event couldn't really buy their own license; it has to
be a license for the whole venue, for anything that happens there 24/7.
Lex Spoon
6:29 p.m.
I'm treasurer for the Seattle folklore society. We pay ascap and bmi for our concerts
but NOT for dances. My understanding is our argument is that the dances are educational
events, with the workshop before the dance being the most educational part. I don't
know that we've had a big discussion with them. I think the dance committee decided
to go this route.
Do not think that because it's a traditional dance form that the music is all public
domain. A huge amount of contradance repertoire is copyrighted material. If you think
otherwise, I suggest paging through any of the Portland Collection books (common
contradance repertoire) and looking for the copyright symbol.
You can get a blanket license with ascap for less than $300 annually. It's not for
the venue, it is for your events. (Unless you own your building maybe.) We don't and
other things happening there are not part of our Licensing agreement.
Thing is, if you want the artists who hold the copyright getting paid, you have to submit
set lists to ascap and bmi. That is the troublesome part, and you can ask the artists to
give one to you if they want. It doesn't change what you owe ASCAP and BMI it just
means they have to redistribute the funds.
Hope this helps
Yours,
Amy
206 330 7408
Amy(a)calleramy.com
On Jun 15, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Lex Spoon via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I've been curious about the same sort of question. My experience so far is that the
contra dance world pretends there is no ASCAP, and usually vice versa.
If you don't mind sharing, Rob, what kind of rates are they asking you for? Also, are
they asking about your dance in particular, or about the venue? I had thought that an
event couldn't really buy their own license; it has to be a license for the whole
venue, for anything that happens there 24/7.
Lex Spoon
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16 Jun
16 Jun
1:23 p.m.
On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Amy Carroll via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Do not think that because it's a traditional dance form that the
music is all public domain. A huge amount of contradance
repertoire is copyrighted material. If you think otherwise, I
suggest paging through any of the Portland Collection books
(common contradance repertoire) and looking for the copyright
symbol.
While most tunes played for contra dances are copyrighted, very few of
those are covered by ASCAP or BMI. Those agencies can only give you a
license for the music they manage the rights for.
Nearly all contra dance music, however, is written by people who would
like their music to be played at dances and don't want to limit that,
so unless someone has asked that others not play their tunes I
wouldn't worry about infringement there.
(For making CDs, though, you definitely need to write to people, offer
to pay them, and her permission.)
Thing is, if you want the artists who hold the copyright getting paid,
you have to submit set lists to ascap and bmi. That is the troublesome
part, and you can ask the artists to give one to you if they want. It
doesn't change what you owe ASCAP and BMI it just means they
have to redistribute the funds.
Even if you do this, no money will go to the large majority of contra
dance tune authors who don't participate in ASCAP/BMI.
Jeff
17 Jun
17 Jun
2:01 a.m.
As I understand it various agents who work for a commission send out
letters dunning folks for ASCAP fees. This is quasi legal black mail as
mentioned by previous respondents many Contradance tune authors have never
seen an ASCAP check.
One can compose a letter that state all material played is copywriter free
traditional tunes are played with express permission from the copywriter
holder.
This of course is a premise, I imagine that someone somewhere holds a copy
write on a version of Old Joe Clark.
Various dance troupe I've been associated with have found ways to deflect
the leaches from sending letters to ignoring them.
If you can imagine how much money they have accrued through this extortion
it would be tough to fight them if you were a business but if you are a
501(c)3 educational organization you have a chance to ignore them.
If you gain insights please share them!
Jeff Raymond
On Jun 16, 2016 9:24 AM, "Jeff Kaufman via Organizers" <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Amy Carroll via
Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Do not think that because it's a traditional dance form that the
music is all public domain. A huge amount of contradance
repertoire is copyrighted material. If you think otherwise, I
suggest paging through any of the Portland Collection books
(common contradance repertoire) and looking for the copyright
symbol.
While most tunes played for contra dances are copyrighted, very few of
those are covered by ASCAP or BMI. Those agencies can only give you a
license for the music they manage the rights for.
Nearly all contra dance music, however, is written by people who would
like their music to be played at dances and don't want to limit that,
so unless someone has asked that others not play their tunes I
wouldn't worry about infringement there.
(For making CDs, though, you definitely need to write to people, offer
to pay them, and her permission.)
Thing is, if you want the artists who hold the copyright getting paid,
you have to submit set lists to ascap and bmi. That is the troublesome
part, and you can ask the artists to give one to you if they want. It
doesn't change what you owe ASCAP and BMI it just means they
have to redistribute the funds.
Even if you do this, no money will go to the large majority of contra
dance tune authors who don't participate in ASCAP/BMI.
Jeff
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18 Jun
18 Jun
5:10 p.m.
In many cases, DJs pay ASCAP/BMI fee directly for the recorded music that they play at
their events. Callers who used recorded music for “Alternative Contras” do the same. You
might check with your regular DJs to see if they are already paying licensing fees in
which case I think you would not need to pay again.
Will
On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:01 PM, Jeff Raymond via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As I understand it various agents who work for a
commission send out letters dunning folks for ASCAP fees. This is quasi legal black mail
as mentioned by previous respondents many Contradance tune authors have never seen an
ASCAP check.
One can compose a letter that state all material played is copywriter free traditional
tunes are played with express permission from the copywriter holder.
This of course is a premise, I imagine that someone somewhere holds a copy write on a
version of Old Joe Clark.
Various dance troupe I've been associated with have found ways to deflect the leaches
from sending letters to ignoring them.
If you can imagine how much money they have accrued through this extortion it would be
tough to fight them if you were a business but if you are a 501(c)3 educational
organization you have a chance to ignore them.
If you gain insights please share them!
Jeff Raymond
On Jun 16, 2016 9:24 AM, "Jeff Kaufman via Organizers"
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Amy Carroll via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
--
Will Loving
18A Orchard St #1
Northampton, MA 01060-2539
413-253-7223 (desk)
413-221-8626 (iPhone)
Do not think that because it's a traditional dance form that the
music is all public domain. A huge amount of contradance
repertoire is copyrighted material. If you think otherwise, I
suggest paging through any of the Portland Collection books
(common contradance repertoire) and looking for the copyright
symbol.
While most tunes played for contra dances are copyrighted, very few of
those are covered by ASCAP or BMI. Those agencies can only give you a
license for the music they manage the rights for.
Nearly all contra dance music, however, is written by people who would
like their music to be played at dances and don't want to limit that,
so unless someone has asked that others not play their tunes I
wouldn't worry about infringement there.
(For making CDs, though, you definitely need to write to people, offer
to pay them, and her permission.)
Thing is, if you want the artists who hold the copyright getting paid,
you have to submit set lists to ascap and bmi. That is the troublesome
part, and you can ask the artists to give one to you if they want. It
doesn't change what you owe ASCAP and BMI it just means they
have to redistribute the funds.
Even if you do this, no money will go to the large majority of contra
dance tune authors who don't participate in ASCAP/BMI.
Jeff
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15 Jun
15 Jun
9:26 p.m.
Years ago we received a letter and I contacted CDSS who told me to have ASCAP/BMI contact
CDSS because they are our "parent" organization.
If you are affiliated with CDSS you might want to call them. Or you might want to call
them anyway to find out what their advice is.
It's my understanding that periodically ASCAP/BMI go "fishing" and send
letters to a lot of music organizations hoping someone will send them $$
Good luck.
Donna Hunt
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Lindauer via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2016 4:51 pm
Subject: [Organizers] ASCAP and BMI
I just got a letter from ASCAP asking payment of license fees for use of
recorded and copyright materials at our dances.
If my organization ran just our contra dances, I'd tell them to take a
hike - or not respond at all - with the argument that our contras use
only traditional public domain music, and not recorded music nor
copyright arrangements.
However, my organization also has waltz, swing, DJ, and Cajun/zydeco
series, where I don't think I can make the same assertion.
The net is I'll probably go ahead and pay.
My question: What encounters (and resolutions) have other groups had
with ASCAP (and BMI too, for that matter).
Thanks, RL
--
Rob Lindauer
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Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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11:55 p.m.
Thanks, Donna.
I've indeed sent a query to CDSS.
I have no doubt that ASCAP is fishing. If HCD ran just contras, I'd
decline (or just ignore the letter), asserting that we use only public
domain music and no copyright arrangements. However, we also run a DJ
dance series, a swing series, a cajun/zydeco series, and a waltz series,
and I doubt I could make the same assertion for them. So it could well
be that we should pay licensing fees. I hope CDSS will be able to clarify.
Rob Lindauer
On 06/15/2016 05:26 PM, Donna Hunt wrote:
Years ago we received a letter and I contacted CDSS
who told me to have
ASCAP/BMI contact CDSS because they are our "parent" organization.
If you are affiliated with CDSS you might want to call them. Or you
might want to call them anyway to find out what their advice is.
It's my understanding that periodically ASCAP/BMI go "fishing" and send
letters to a lot of music organizations hoping someone will send them $$
Good luck.
Donna Hunt
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Lindauer via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net>
Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2016 4:51 pm
Subject: [Organizers] ASCAP and BMI
I just got a letter from ASCAP asking payment of license fees for use of
recorded and copyright materials at our dances.
If my organization ran just our contra dances, I'd tell them to take a
hike - or not respond at all - with the argument that our contras use
only traditional public domain music, and not recorded music nor
copyright arrangements.
However, my organization also has waltz, swing, DJ, and Cajun/zydeco
series, where I don't think I can make the same assertion.
The net is I'll probably go ahead and pay.
My question: What encounters (and resolutions) have other groups had
with ASCAP (and BMI too, for that matter).
Thanks, RL
--
Rob Lindauer
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7 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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Amy Carroll via Organizers -
Donna Hunt via Organizers
-
Jeff Kaufman via Organizers
-
Jeff Raymond via Organizers
-
Lex Spoon via Organizers
-
Rob Lindauer via Organizers
-
William M Loving via Organizers