6 Jan
2023
6 Jan
'23
10:55 p.m.
As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate someone.
What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of the dancers
- would you dance if masks were required
- would you dance if masks were optional
and so on.
Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of dancers.
I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a lot of dancers
that you can't ask, including potential future dancers. But in my case
it seemed like the right way to do it.
John Bloom
7 Jan
7 Jan
4:18 a.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?
Question for anyone with the "you will alienate someone" or "everyone has
a
different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal preference (like
not wearing a mask) the same as someone's health needs (like having a
health condition, or a family member who does)?
Like, how is this "both sides have a preference" narrative any different
from able-bodied people being like "Oh, well, I just don't like handicapped
ramps, I prefer steps"?
I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love an explanation.
I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people, and not just
disregard people with medical conditions (or family with them).
That is - making sure no area's dances are all mask-optional.
There's a big difference between an area having _some_ mask-optional
dances, sure, but if they're _all_ mask-optional.
Thanks,
Julian Blechner
On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate
someone.
What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of the dancers
- would you dance if masks were required
- would you dance if masks were optional
and so on.
Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of dancers.
I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a lot of dancers
that you can't ask, including potential future dancers. But in my case
it seemed like the right way to do it.
John Bloom
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
5:13 a.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?
Another pebble in the pond --
* Current booster verified
* N95, KN95, KF94 required
* Request cases to be reported back to the organizers
* Emails collected to report cases anonymously to the community
* Max venue ventilation -- cold drafts this time of year in the North
NONE of these is sufficient to prevent Covid. ALL of them help reduce
transmission.
None of us organizers volunteered to be public health officials. And
certainly not protocol cops. But it makes sense for us to STACK THE
ODDS as high as possible in favor of COMMUNITY health.
Maximizing community safety takes precedence over individual preference.
That's the most responsible way to organize a dance. Not just for the
benefit of our dancers, but also for the greater community in which all
of our dancers live.
Mac Sloan
Thursday Night Dance, Concord Scout House, MA
Walker Sloan
sloan(a)medevelop.com
On 23/01/06 11:18 PM, Julian Blechner via Organizers wrote:
Question for anyone with the "you will alienate
someone" or "everyone
has a different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal preference
(like not wearing a mask) the same as someone's health needs (like
having a health condition, or a family member who does)?
Like, how is this "both sides have a preference" narrative any different
from able-bodied people being like "Oh, well, I just don't like
handicapped ramps, I prefer steps"?
I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love an explanation.
I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people, and not just
disregard people with medical conditions (or family with them).
That is - making sure no area's dances are all mask-optional.
There's a big difference between an area having _some_ mask-optional
dances, sure, but if they're _all_ mask-optional.
Thanks,
Julian Blechner
On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate someone.
What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of the dancers
- would you dance if masks were required
- would you dance if masks were optional
and so on.
Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of dancers.
I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a lot of
dancers that you can't ask, including potential future dancers.
But in my case it seemed like the right way to do it.
John Bloom
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
To unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
7:07 p.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?
Arden contra (in Delaware) has a policy that's very similar to Montelier's,
and for the same reasons. We surveyed this fall and dropped our vaccine
requirement, and we'll survey our community again this month. Without a
significant change to our understanding on transmission risk difference
between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, we won't consider re-excluding
unvaccinated people. If it's not safe enough to dance for
community conditions and hospitals, we'll postpone dances.
Whole policy:
- vaccines strongly encouraged
- masks required
- hall with excellent ventilation
- contact tracing with mandatory info collection, system run by a
responsible person outside the community, announced at the dance and in a
follow-up email
- announcement that if anyone feels sick after the dance, we expect them to
get tested ASAP
- rapid tests available to those without access
Thankfully we haven't had any known transmission yet since restarting in
March 2022. We average around 40 attendees per dance.
I agree with Julian, I hope every local area has a space that's taking all
precautions available, and it also makes sense to me to have mask-optional
dances if there is no foreseeable change to covid risk.
Thanks for the thread, everyone - it's useful to see what other dances are
doing.
Laura Alexander
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 12:13 AM Walker Sloan via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Another pebble in the pond --
* Current booster verified
* N95, KN95, KF94 required
* Request cases to be reported back to the organizers
* Emails collected to report cases anonymously to the community
* Max venue ventilation -- cold drafts this time of year in the North
NONE of these is sufficient to prevent Covid. ALL of them help reduce
transmission.
None of us organizers volunteered to be public health officials. And
certainly not protocol cops. But it makes sense for us to STACK THE
ODDS as high as possible in favor of COMMUNITY health.
Maximizing community safety takes precedence over individual preference.
That's the most responsible way to organize a dance. Not just for the
benefit of our dancers, but also for the greater community in which all
of our dancers live.
Mac Sloan
Thursday Night Dance, Concord Scout House, MA
Walker Sloan
sloan(a)medevelop.com
On 23/01/06 11:18 PM, Julian Blechner via Organizers wrote:
Question for anyone with the "you will
alienate someone" or "everyone
has a different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal preference
(like not wearing a mask) the same as someone's health needs (like
having a health condition, or a family member who does)?
Like, how is this "both sides have a preference" narrative any different
from able-bodied people being like "Oh, well, I just don't like
handicapped ramps, I prefer steps"?
I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love an explanation.
I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people, and not just
disregard people with medical conditions (or family with them).
That is - making sure no area's dances are all mask-optional.
There's a big difference between an area having _some_ mask-optional
dances, sure, but if they're _all_ mask-optional.
Thanks,
Julian Blechner
On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate someone.
What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of the dancers
- would you dance if masks were required
- would you dance if masks were optional
and so on.
Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of dancers.
I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a lot of
dancers that you can't ask, including potential future dancers.
But in my case it seemed like the right way to do it.
John Bloom
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
To unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
8:27 p.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?
"Our understanding on transmission risks..." Surveys reflect
preferences, not science.
Science: In Nov '22, per the CDC, bivalent boosted people had 1/3rd the
chance of testing positive. This means that requiring bivalent boosters
will dramatically cut the number of positives dancing in your hall.
See attachment. Light green box at the bottom.
With XBB.1.5 this number has yet to be determine. But odds are there
will be a good effect.
Do vaxes prevent Covid? No, but the odds of Covid producing a bad
outcome in vaxed and boosted people go WAY down: Testing positive,
transmitting, hospitalization, death -- WAY down.
Holding dances for unvaxed people not only endangers them, but ALSO the
folks they go home to and go to work with.
Holding unvaxed or vax-optional dances prolongs the pandemic.
Regardless of surveys or understandings.
Mac Sloan
On 23/01/07 2:07 PM, Laura Alexander wrote:
Arden contra (in Delaware) has a policy that's
very similar to
Montelier's, and for the same reasons. We surveyed this fall and dropped
our vaccine requirement, and we'll survey our community again this
month. Without a significant change to our understanding on transmission
risk difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, we won't
consider re-excluding unvaccinated people. If it's not safe enough to
dance for community conditions and hospitals, we'll postpone dances.
Whole policy:
- vaccines strongly encouraged
- masks required
- hall with excellent ventilation
- contact tracing with mandatory info collection, system run by a
responsible person outside the community, announced at the dance and in
a follow-up email
- announcement that if anyone feels sick after the dance, we expect them
to get tested ASAP
- rapid tests available to those without access
Thankfully we haven't had any known transmission yet since restarting in
March 2022. We average around 40 attendees per dance.
I agree with Julian, I hope every local area has a space that's
taking all precautions available, and it also makes sense to me to have
mask-optional dances if there is no foreseeable change to covid risk.
Thanks for the thread, everyone - it's useful to see what other dances
are doing.
Laura Alexander
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 12:13 AM Walker Sloan via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Another pebble in the pond --
* Current booster verified
* N95, KN95, KF94 required
* Request cases to be reported back to the organizers
* Emails collected to report cases anonymously to the community
* Max venue ventilation -- cold drafts this time of year in the North
NONE of these is sufficient to prevent Covid. ALL of them help reduce
transmission.
None of us organizers volunteered to be public health officials. And
certainly not protocol cops. But it makes sense for us to STACK THE
ODDS as high as possible in favor of COMMUNITY health.
Maximizing community safety takes precedence over individual preference.
That's the most responsible way to organize a dance. Not just for the
benefit of our dancers, but also for the greater community in which all
of our dancers live.
Mac Sloan
Thursday Night Dance, Concord Scout House, MA
Walker Sloan
sloan(a)medevelop.com <mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>
On 23/01/06 11:18 PM, Julian Blechner via Organizers wrote:
Question for anyone with the "you will
alienate someone" or
"everyone
has a different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal
preference
(like not wearing a mask) the same as
someone's health needs (like
having a health condition, or a family member who does)?
Like, how is this "both sides have a preference" narrative any
different
from able-bodied people being like "Oh,
well, I just don't like
handicapped ramps, I prefer steps"?
I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love an
explanation.
I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people, and not
just
disregard people with medical conditions (or
family with them).
That is - making sure no area's dances are all mask-optional.
There's a big difference between an area having _some_ mask-optional
dances, sure, but if they're _all_ mask-optional.
Thanks,
Julian Blechner
On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>> wrote:
As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate someone.
What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of the dancers
- would you dance if masks were required
- would you dance if masks were optional
and so on.
Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of dancers.
I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a lot of
dancers that you can't ask, including potential future dancers.
But in my case it seemed like the right way to do it.
John Bloom
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
To unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
To unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
To unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
10:56 p.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?
Hi Mac,
My understanding of transmission risk is based on information from
mainstream epidemiologists, not surveys. As a scientist not working in
epidemiology, I'm curious for expert information and seek it out. Believe
it or not, I still think our position is appropriate and responsible. I'm
aware of these studies and the information you shared, but thank you for
mentioning them. I'm happy to continue this conversation offline, but I'd
hope you refrain from making assumptions in the future about what people
understand.
Laura
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 3:27 PM Walker Sloan <sloan(a)medevelop.com> wrote:
"Our understanding on transmission risks..." Surveys reflect
preferences, not science.
Science: In Nov '22, per the CDC, bivalent boosted people had 1/3rd the
chance of testing positive. This means that requiring bivalent boosters
will dramatically cut the number of positives dancing in your hall.
See attachment. Light green box at the bottom.
With XBB.1.5 this number has yet to be determine. But odds are there
will be a good effect.
Do vaxes prevent Covid? No, but the odds of Covid producing a bad
outcome in vaxed and boosted people go WAY down: Testing positive,
transmitting, hospitalization, death -- WAY down.
Holding dances for unvaxed people not only endangers them, but ALSO the
folks they go home to and go to work with.
Holding unvaxed or vax-optional dances prolongs the pandemic.
Regardless of surveys or understandings.
Mac Sloan
On 23/01/07 2:07 PM, Laura Alexander wrote:
dancers
Arden contra (in Delaware) has a policy
that's very similar to
Montelier's, and for the same reasons. We surveyed this fall and dropped
our vaccine requirement, and we'll survey our community again this
month. Without a significant change to our understanding on transmission
risk difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, we won't
consider re-excluding unvaccinated people. If it's not safe enough to
dance for community conditions and hospitals, we'll postpone dances.
Whole policy:
- vaccines strongly encouraged
- masks required
- hall with excellent ventilation
- contact tracing with mandatory info collection, system run by a
responsible person outside the community, announced at the dance and in
a follow-up email
- announcement that if anyone feels sick after the dance, we expect them
to get tested ASAP
- rapid tests available to those without access
Thankfully we haven't had any known transmission yet since restarting in
March 2022. We average around 40 attendees per dance.
I agree with Julian, I hope every local area has a space that's
taking all precautions available, and it also makes sense to me to have
mask-optional dances if there is no foreseeable change to covid risk.
Thanks for the thread, everyone - it's useful to see what other dances
are doing.
Laura Alexander
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 12:13 AM Walker Sloan via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Another pebble in the pond --
* Current booster verified
* N95, KN95, KF94 required
* Request cases to be reported back to the organizers
* Emails collected to report cases anonymously to the community
* Max venue ventilation -- cold drafts this time of year in the
North
NONE of these is sufficient to prevent Covid. ALL of them help
reduce
transmission.
None of us organizers volunteered to be public health officials. And
certainly not protocol cops. But it makes sense for us to STACK THE
ODDS as high as possible in favor of COMMUNITY health.
Maximizing community safety takes precedence over individual
preference.
That's the most responsible way to organize a dance. Not just for
the
benefit of our dancers, but also for the
greater community in which
all
of our dancers live.
Mac Sloan
Thursday Night Dance, Concord Scout House, MA
Walker Sloan
sloan(a)medevelop.com <mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>
On 23/01/06 11:18 PM, Julian Blechner via Organizers wrote:
mask-optional
Question for anyone with the "you will
alienate someone" or
"everyone
has a different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal
preference
(like not wearing a mask) the same as
someone's health needs (like
having a health condition, or a family member who does)?
Like, how is this "both sides have a preference" narrative any
different
from able-bodied people being like "Oh,
well, I just don't like
handicapped ramps, I prefer steps"?
I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love an
explanation.
I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people, and not
just
> disregard people with medical conditions (or family with them).
> That is - making sure no area's dances are all mask-optional.
> There's a big difference between an area having _some_ > dances, sure, but if they're _all_
mask-optional.
>
> Thanks,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via
Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>> wrote:
>
> As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate someone.
>
> What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of the > - would you dance if masks were
required
> - would you dance if masks were optional
> and so on.
>
> Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of dancers.
>
> I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a
lot of
> dancers that you can't ask,
including potential future
dancers.
> > But in my case it seemed like the right way to do it.
> >
> > John Bloom
> > _______________________________________________
> > Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> > <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
> > <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to
> organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
> _______________________________________________
> Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
>
11:13 p.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?
Mac - I apologize for responding in irritation. It wasn't proportionate. I
guess I would just like to share that the information you shared doesn't
contradict our position. I'm happy to discuss offline, since it's not a
great use of the forum to do it here, I think.
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 5:56 PM Laura Alexander <07alexanderl(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi Mac,
My understanding of transmission risk is based on information from
mainstream epidemiologists, not surveys. As a scientist not working in
epidemiology, I'm curious for expert information and seek it out. Believe
it or not, I still think our position is appropriate and responsible. I'm
aware of these studies and the information you shared, but thank you for
mentioning them. I'm happy to continue this conversation offline, but I'd
hope you refrain from making assumptions in the future about what people
understand.
Laura
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 3:27 PM Walker Sloan <sloan(a)medevelop.com> wrote:
"Our understanding on transmission risks..." Surveys reflect
preferences, not science.
Science: In Nov '22, per the CDC, bivalent boosted people had 1/3rd the
chance of testing positive. This means that requiring bivalent boosters
will dramatically cut the number of positives dancing in your hall.
See attachment. Light green box at the bottom.
With XBB.1.5 this number has yet to be determine. But odds are there
will be a good effect.
Do vaxes prevent Covid? No, but the odds of Covid producing a bad
outcome in vaxed and boosted people go WAY down: Testing positive,
transmitting, hospitalization, death -- WAY down.
Holding dances for unvaxed people not only endangers them, but ALSO the
folks they go home to and go to work with.
Holding unvaxed or vax-optional dances prolongs the pandemic.
Regardless of surveys or understandings.
Mac Sloan
On 23/01/07 2:07 PM, Laura Alexander wrote:
mask-optional
dancers
Arden contra (in Delaware) has a policy
that's very similar to
Montelier's, and for the same reasons. We surveyed this fall and
dropped
our vaccine requirement, and we'll survey our
community again this
month. Without a significant change to our understanding on
transmission
risk difference between vaccinated and
unvaccinated people, we won't
consider re-excluding unvaccinated people. If it's not safe enough to
dance for community conditions and hospitals, we'll postpone dances.
Whole policy:
- vaccines strongly encouraged
- masks required
- hall with excellent ventilation
- contact tracing with mandatory info collection, system run by a
responsible person outside the community, announced at the dance and in
a follow-up email
- announcement that if anyone feels sick after the dance, we expect
them
to get tested ASAP
- rapid tests available to those without access
Thankfully we haven't had any known transmission yet since restarting
in
March 2022. We average around 40 attendees per
dance.
I agree with Julian, I hope every local area has a space that's
taking all precautions available, and it also makes sense to me to have
mask-optional dances if there is no foreseeable change to covid risk.
Thanks for the thread, everyone - it's useful to see what other dances
are doing.
Laura Alexander
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 12:13 AM Walker Sloan via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Another pebble in the pond --
* Current booster verified
* N95, KN95, KF94 required
* Request cases to be reported back to the organizers
* Emails collected to report cases anonymously to the community
* Max venue ventilation -- cold drafts this time of year in the
North
NONE of these is sufficient to prevent Covid. ALL of them help
reduce
transmission.
None of us organizers volunteered to be public health officials.
And
certainly not protocol cops. But it makes
sense for us to STACK THE
ODDS as high as possible in favor of COMMUNITY health.
Maximizing community safety takes precedence over individual
preference.
That's the most responsible way to organize a dance. Not just for
the
benefit of our dancers, but also for the
greater community in which
all
of our dancers live.
Mac Sloan
Thursday Night Dance, Concord Scout House, MA
Walker Sloan
sloan(a)medevelop.com <mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>
On 23/01/06 11:18 PM, Julian Blechner via Organizers wrote:
(like
Question for anyone with the "you will
alienate someone" or
"everyone
has a different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal
preference
> (like not wearing a mask) the same as someone's health needs having a
health condition, or a family member who does)?
Like, how is this "both sides have a preference" narrative any
different
from able-bodied people being like "Oh,
well, I just don't like
handicapped ramps, I prefer steps"?
I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love an
explanation.
I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people, and not
just
> disregard people with medical conditions (or family with them).
> That is - making sure no area's dances are all mask-optional.
> There's a big difference between an area having _some_ > dances, sure, but if they're _all_
mask-optional.
>
> Thanks,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via
Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>> wrote:
>
> As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate someone.
>
> What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of the > - would you dance if masks were
required
> - would you dance if masks were optional
> and so on.
>
> Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of dancers.
>
> I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a
lot of
> dancers that you can't ask,
including potential future
dancers.
> > But in my case it seemed like the right way to do it.
> >
> > John Bloom
> > _______________________________________________
> > Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> > <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
> > <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to
> organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
> _______________________________________________
> Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
>
10 Jan
10 Jan
5:14 p.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances? HARD DATA
Hey, all you organizers
HARD DATA:
On the issue of masks required OR optional, here is some actually
useful, vaguely understandable data, published by NEJM, New England
Journal of Medicine. NEJM (Nee-gem) is one of the world premiere
medical journals.
Since I'm interpreting this, my creds are an SB, MIT in physics, and an
engineer in medical devices. I do numbers. And I'm on the committee
for the Thursday Night Dance at Scout House in Concord MA.
Attached is a summary sheet for a NEJM article on lifting the mask
mandate in Boston public schools. My hypothesis -- opinion -- is that a
contra dance is comparable to packing a bunch of kids into a school.
You'll want to view the PDF to see what I'm talking about.
The UPPER RIGHT GRAPH, the important lines are the lower three lines --
two red and one blue. The red lines are the case rates 2 and 3 weeks
AFTER lifting the mask mandate. The blue line is the case rate for
schools NOT lifting the mask mandate. By engineering standards, the two
red lines peak about 50% higher than the blue line.
In the RESULTS paragraph on the left, last sentence: "One third of the
Covid-19 cases that occurred..." This is another way of expressing a
50% increase.
Do masks PREVENT Covid? We all know they don't. Neither do vaxes and
boosters. What they do is stack the ODDS in favor of individuals and
COMMUNITIES not getting Covid.
I strongly believe that stacking the odds is the responsible way to go.
I do NOT believe in basing policies on surveys of dancer preferences.
Mac Sloan
On 23/01/07 5:56 PM, Laura Alexander wrote:
Hi Mac,
My understanding of transmission risk is based on information from
mainstream epidemiologists, not surveys. As a scientist not working in
epidemiology, I'm curious for expert information and seek it out.
Believe it or not, I still think our position is appropriate and
responsible. I'm aware of these studies and the information you shared,
but thank you for mentioning them. I'm happy to continue this
conversation offline, but I'd hope you refrain from making assumptions
in the future about what people understand.
Laura
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 3:27 PM Walker Sloan <sloan(a)medevelop.com
<mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>> wrote:
"Our understanding on transmission risks..." Surveys reflect
preferences, not science.
Science: In Nov '22, per the CDC, bivalent boosted people had 1/3rd
the
chance of testing positive. This means that requiring bivalent
boosters
will dramatically cut the number of positives dancing in your hall.
See attachment. Light green box at the bottom.
With XBB.1.5 this number has yet to be determine. But odds are there
will be a good effect.
Do vaxes prevent Covid? No, but the odds of Covid producing a bad
outcome in vaxed and boosted people go WAY down: Testing positive,
transmitting, hospitalization, death -- WAY down.
Holding dances for unvaxed people not only endangers them, but ALSO the
folks they go home to and go to work with.
Holding unvaxed or vax-optional dances prolongs the pandemic.
Regardless of surveys or understandings.
Mac Sloan
On 23/01/07 2:07 PM, Laura Alexander wrote:
like
and not
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
Arden contra (in Delaware) has a policy
that's very similar to
Montelier's, and for the same reasons. We surveyed this fall and
dropped
our vaccine requirement, and we'll survey our
community again this
month. Without a significant change to our understanding on
transmission
risk difference between vaccinated and
unvaccinated people, we won't
consider re-excluding unvaccinated people. If it's not safe
enough to
dance for community conditions and hospitals,
we'll postpone dances.
Whole policy:
- vaccines strongly encouraged
- masks required
- hall with excellent ventilation
- contact tracing with mandatory info collection, system run by a
responsible person outside the community, announced at the dance
and in
a follow-up email
- announcement that if anyone feels sick after the dance, we
expect them
to get tested ASAP
- rapid tests available to those without access
Thankfully we haven't had any known transmission yet since
restarting in
March 2022. We average around 40 attendees per
dance.
I agree with Julian, I hope every local area has a space that's
taking all precautions available, and it also makes sense to me
to have
mask-optional dances if there is no foreseeable
change to covid risk.
Thanks for the thread, everyone - it's useful to see what other
dances
are doing.
Laura Alexander
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 12:13 AM Walker Sloan via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>> wrote:
Another pebble in the pond --
* Current booster verified
* N95, KN95, KF94 required
* Request cases to be reported back to the organizers
* Emails collected to report cases anonymously to the community
* Max venue ventilation -- cold drafts this time of year in
the North
NONE of these is sufficient to prevent Covid. ALL of them
help reduce
transmission.
None of us organizers volunteered to be public health
officials. And
certainly not protocol cops. But it makes
sense for us to
STACK THE
ODDS as high as possible in favor of
COMMUNITY health.
Maximizing community safety takes precedence over individual
preference.
That's the most responsible way to organize a dance. Not
just for the
benefit of our dancers, but also for the
greater community in
which all
of our dancers live.
Mac Sloan
Thursday Night Dance, Concord Scout House, MA
Walker Sloan
sloan(a)medevelop.com <mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>
<mailto:sloan@medevelop.com <mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>>
On 23/01/06 11:18 PM, Julian Blechner via Organizers wrote:
needs (like
Question for anyone with the "you will
alienate someone" or
"everyone
has a different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal
preference
> (like not wearing a mask) the same as someone's health
having a
health condition, or a family member who does)?
Like, how is this "both sides have a preference" narrative any
different
> from able-bodied people being like "Oh, well, I just don't
handicapped ramps, I prefer steps"?
I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love an
explanation.
>
> I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people,
just
> disregard people with medical conditions (or family with
them).
> That is - making sure no area's
dances are all mask-optional.
> There's a big difference between an area having _some_
mask-optional
> dances, sure, but if they're _all_
mask-optional.
>
> Thanks,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via
Organizers
> <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>> wrote:
>
> As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate someone.
>
> What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of
the dancers
> - would you dance if masks were
required
> - would you dance if masks were optional
> and so on.
>
> Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of
dancers.
>
> I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you
have a lot of
> dancers that you can't ask,
including potential future
dancers.
> But in my case it seemed like the
right way to do it.
>
> John Bloom
> _______________________________________________
> Organizers mailing list --
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Organizers mailing list --
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
To
unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
To unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
6:27 p.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances? HARD DATA
And here's a brief synopsis of the data and study Mac referenced, as
written by Katelyn Jetelina (author of the newsletter Your Local
Epidemiologist):
---
Mask mandates in schools work
What we know: Masks work on an individual level, but the effectiveness of
population-level mandates is less understood.
New info: A study from the New England Journal of Medicine compared schools
in Massachusetts that kept the mask mandate to schools that removed the
mask mandate after the statewide policy was rescinded. Schools that lifted
masking had an additional 44.9 COVID-19 cases per 1000 students and staff.
(Study can be viewed in full at
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2211029)
Why does this matter? Mask mandates in large settings, like schools, work.
This is important to know now or in future pandemics to keep kids in school.
--
On Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 12:40 PM Walker Sloan via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey, all you organizers
HARD DATA:
On the issue of masks required OR optional, here is some actually
useful, vaguely understandable data, published by NEJM, New England
Journal of Medicine. NEJM (Nee-gem) is one of the world premiere
medical journals.
Since I'm interpreting this, my creds are an SB, MIT in physics, and an
engineer in medical devices. I do numbers. And I'm on the committee
for the Thursday Night Dance at Scout House in Concord MA.
Attached is a summary sheet for a NEJM article on lifting the mask
mandate in Boston public schools. My hypothesis -- opinion -- is that a
contra dance is comparable to packing a bunch of kids into a school.
You'll want to view the PDF to see what I'm talking about.
The UPPER RIGHT GRAPH, the important lines are the lower three lines --
two red and one blue. The red lines are the case rates 2 and 3 weeks
AFTER lifting the mask mandate. The blue line is the case rate for
schools NOT lifting the mask mandate. By engineering standards, the two
red lines peak about 50% higher than the blue line.
In the RESULTS paragraph on the left, last sentence: "One third of the
Covid-19 cases that occurred..." This is another way of expressing a
50% increase.
Do masks PREVENT Covid? We all know they don't. Neither do vaxes and
boosters. What they do is stack the ODDS in favor of individuals and
COMMUNITIES not getting Covid.
I strongly believe that stacking the odds is the responsible way to go.
I do NOT believe in basing policies on surveys of dancer preferences.
Mac Sloan
On 23/01/07 5:56 PM, Laura Alexander wrote:
dances.
risk.
community
any
an
mask-optional.
someone.
> What I did with the Brunswick ECD
was to ask all of the dancers
> I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a lot of
>
_______________________________________________
> Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
_______________________________________________ Organizers mailing list --
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Hi Mac,
My understanding of transmission risk is based on information from
mainstream epidemiologists, not surveys. As a scientist not working in
epidemiology, I'm curious for expert information and seek it out.
Believe it or not, I still think our position is appropriate and
responsible. I'm aware of these studies and the information you shared,
but thank you for mentioning them. I'm happy to continue this
conversation offline, but I'd hope you refrain from making assumptions
in the future about what people understand.
Laura
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 3:27 PM Walker Sloan <sloan(a)medevelop.com
<mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>> wrote:
"Our understanding on transmission risks..." Surveys reflect
preferences, not science.
Science: In Nov '22, per the CDC, bivalent boosted people had 1/3rd
the
chance of testing positive. This means that requiring bivalent
boosters
will dramatically cut the number of positives dancing in your hall.
See attachment. Light green box at the bottom.
With XBB.1.5 this number has yet to be determine. But odds are there
will be a good effect.
Do vaxes prevent Covid? No, but the odds of Covid producing a bad
outcome in vaxed and boosted people go WAY down: Testing positive,
transmitting, hospitalization, death -- WAY down.
Holding dances for unvaxed people not only endangers them, but ALSO
the
folks they go home to and go to work with.
Holding unvaxed or vax-optional dances prolongs the pandemic.
Regardless of surveys or understandings.
Mac Sloan
On 23/01/07 2:07 PM, Laura Alexander wrote:
won't
Arden contra (in Delaware) has a policy
that's very similar to
Montelier's, and for the same reasons. We surveyed this fall and
dropped
our vaccine requirement, and we'll survey our
community again this
month. Without a significant change to our understanding on
transmission
> risk difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, we consider
re-excluding unvaccinated people. If it's not safe
enough to
> dance for community conditions and hospitals, we'll postpone
Whole policy:
- vaccines strongly encouraged
- masks required
- hall with excellent ventilation
- contact tracing with mandatory info collection, system run by a
responsible person outside the community, announced at the dance
and in
a follow-up email
- announcement that if anyone feels sick after the dance, we
expect them
to get tested ASAP
- rapid tests available to those without access
Thankfully we haven't had any known transmission yet since
restarting in
March 2022. We average around 40 attendees per
dance.
I agree with Julian, I hope every local area has a space that's
taking all precautions available, and it also makes sense to me
to have
> mask-optional dances if there is no foreseeable change to covid
Thanks for the thread, everyone - it's useful to see what other
dances
are doing.
Laura Alexander
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 12:13 AM Walker Sloan via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>> wrote:
>
> Another pebble in the pond --
>
> * Current booster verified
> * N95, KN95, KF94 required
> * Request cases to be reported back to the organizers
> * Emails collected to report cases anonymously to the *
Max venue ventilation -- cold drafts this time of year in
the North
NONE of these is sufficient to prevent Covid. ALL of them
help reduce
transmission.
None of us organizers volunteered to be public health
officials. And
certainly not protocol cops. But it makes
sense for us to
STACK THE
ODDS as high as possible in favor of
COMMUNITY health.
Maximizing community safety takes precedence over individual
preference.
That's the most responsible way to organize a dance. Not
just for
the
benefit of our dancers, but also for the
greater community in
which all
of our dancers live.
Mac Sloan
Thursday Night Dance, Concord Scout House, MA
Walker Sloan
sloan(a)medevelop.com <mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>
<mailto:sloan@medevelop.com <mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>>
On 23/01/06 11:18 PM, Julian Blechner via Organizers wrote:
needs
(like
> > having a health condition, or a family member who does)?
> >
> > Like, how is this "both sides have a preference" narrative
Question for anyone with the "you will
alienate someone" or
"everyone
has a different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal
preference
> (like not wearing a mask) the same as someone's health
different
> from able-bodied people being like "Oh, well, I just don't
like
> > handicapped ramps, I prefer steps"?
> > I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love
explanation.
>
> I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people,
and not
just
> disregard people with medical conditions (or family with
them).
> > That is - making sure no area's dances are all >
There's a big difference between an area having _some_
mask-optional
> dances, sure, but if they're _all_
mask-optional.
>
> Thanks,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via
Organizers
> <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>> wrote:
> >
> > As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate > - would you dance if masks were
required
> - would you dance if masks were optional
> and so on.
> Then I picked the rules that
maximized the number of
dancers.
> dancers that you can't ask,
including potential future
dancers.
> But in my case it seemed like the
right way to do it.
> John Bloom
> _______________________________________________
> Organizers mailing list --
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
To
unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
To unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
11:04 p.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances? HARD DATA
I feel that we need science *and* community input to make good decisions as
organizers. I don't think either is sufficient alone. Plagiarizing a
comment from myself in a previous conversation about covid precautions that
took place on Facebook:
I think people who have been following the science and even agree on the
science might make different decisions about what precautions are valuable
based on factors that science hasn't yet or may never provide clarity on.
Some of them are scientific questions and some of them are not. And some of
them are questions that can *only* be answered by our community! Questions
like:
- What is the exact nature and prevalence of long covid?
- How do the risks of covid compare to risks we took in a prepandemic
world?
- How does our community value risk for pleasure?
- Will things get less risky in the future?
- How long is our community willing to wear masks while dancing? A year?
Two years? Forever?
- Does our community care if we exclude people who can't or won't get
vaccinated?
- Etc.
I think people can agree on the (mostly) settled science—how covid is
transmitted, how well masks and vaccines work, what the possible outcomes
of a covid infection are, who is most at risk—and still have very different
answers to these questions, many of which are pretty reasonable. We need
science *and* community input *and* organizer judgment to guide decisions.
Harris
On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 1:28 PM Dana Dwinell-Yardley via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
And here's a brief synopsis of the data and study
Mac referenced, as
written by Katelyn Jetelina (author of the newsletter Your Local
Epidemiologist):
---
Mask mandates in schools work
What we know: Masks work on an individual level, but the effectiveness of
population-level mandates is less understood.
New info: A study from the New England Journal of Medicine compared
schools in Massachusetts that kept the mask mandate to schools that removed
the mask mandate after the statewide policy was rescinded. Schools that
lifted masking had an additional 44.9 COVID-19 cases per 1000 students and
staff. (Study can be viewed in full at
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2211029)
Why does this matter? Mask mandates in large settings, like schools, work.
This is important to know now or in future pandemics to keep kids in school.
--
On Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 12:40 PM Walker Sloan via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey, all you organizers
HARD DATA:
On the issue of masks required OR optional, here is some actually
useful, vaguely understandable data, published by NEJM, New England
Journal of Medicine. NEJM (Nee-gem) is one of the world premiere
medical journals.
Since I'm interpreting this, my creds are an SB, MIT in physics, and an
engineer in medical devices. I do numbers. And I'm on the committee
for the Thursday Night Dance at Scout House in Concord MA.
Attached is a summary sheet for a NEJM article on lifting the mask
mandate in Boston public schools. My hypothesis -- opinion -- is that a
contra dance is comparable to packing a bunch of kids into a school.
You'll want to view the PDF to see what I'm talking about.
The UPPER RIGHT GRAPH, the important lines are the lower three lines --
two red and one blue. The red lines are the case rates 2 and 3 weeks
AFTER lifting the mask mandate. The blue line is the case rate for
schools NOT lifting the mask mandate. By engineering standards, the two
red lines peak about 50% higher than the blue line.
In the RESULTS paragraph on the left, last sentence: "One third of the
Covid-19 cases that occurred..." This is another way of expressing a
50% increase.
Do masks PREVENT Covid? We all know they don't. Neither do vaxes and
boosters. What they do is stack the ODDS in favor of individuals and
COMMUNITIES not getting Covid.
I strongly believe that stacking the odds is the responsible way to go.
I do NOT believe in basing policies on surveys of dancer preferences.
Mac Sloan
On 23/01/07 5:56 PM, Laura Alexander wrote:
won't
dances.
risk.
community
or
narrative any
an
mask-optional.
someone.
> What I did with the Brunswick ECD
was to ask all of the dancers
> I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a lot of
>
_______________________________________________
> Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
_______________________________________________ Organizers mailing list --
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Hi Mac,
My understanding of transmission risk is based on information from
mainstream epidemiologists, not surveys. As a scientist not working in
epidemiology, I'm curious for expert information and seek it out.
Believe it or not, I still think our position is appropriate and
responsible. I'm aware of these studies and the information you shared,
but thank you for mentioning them. I'm happy to continue this
conversation offline, but I'd hope you refrain from making assumptions
in the future about what people understand.
Laura
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 3:27 PM Walker Sloan <sloan(a)medevelop.com
<mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>> wrote:
"Our understanding on transmission risks..." Surveys reflect
preferences, not science.
Science: In Nov '22, per the CDC, bivalent boosted people had 1/3rd
the
chance of testing positive. This means that requiring bivalent
boosters
will dramatically cut the number of positives dancing in your hall.
See attachment. Light green box at the bottom.
With XBB.1.5 this number has yet to be determine. But odds are
there
will be a good effect.
Do vaxes prevent Covid? No, but the odds of Covid producing a bad
outcome in vaxed and boosted people go WAY down: Testing positive,
transmitting, hospitalization, death -- WAY down.
Holding dances for unvaxed people not only endangers them, but ALSO
the
folks they go home to and go to work with.
Holding unvaxed or vax-optional dances prolongs the pandemic.
Regardless of surveys or understandings.
Mac Sloan
On 23/01/07 2:07 PM, Laura Alexander wrote:
this
Arden contra (in Delaware) has a policy
that's very similar to
Montelier's, and for the same reasons. We surveyed this fall and
dropped
> our vaccine requirement, and we'll survey our community again month.
Without a significant change to our understanding on
transmission
> risk difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, we consider
re-excluding unvaccinated people. If it's not safe
enough to
> dance for community conditions and hospitals, we'll postpone
Whole policy:
- vaccines strongly encouraged
- masks required
- hall with excellent ventilation
- contact tracing with mandatory info collection, system run by a
responsible person outside the community, announced at the dance
and in
a follow-up email
- announcement that if anyone feels sick after the dance, we
expect them
to get tested ASAP
- rapid tests available to those without access
Thankfully we haven't had any known transmission yet since
restarting in
March 2022. We average around 40 attendees per
dance.
I agree with Julian, I hope every local area has a space that's
taking all precautions available, and it also makes sense to me
to have
> mask-optional dances if there is no foreseeable change to covid
Thanks for the thread, everyone - it's useful to see what other
dances
are doing.
Laura Alexander
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 12:13 AM Walker Sloan via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>> wrote:
>
> Another pebble in the pond --
>
> * Current booster verified
> * N95, KN95, KF94 required
> * Request cases to be reported back to the organizers
> * Emails collected to report cases anonymously to the *
Max venue ventilation -- cold drafts this time of year in
the North
NONE of these is sufficient to prevent Covid. ALL of them
help reduce
transmission.
None of us organizers volunteered to be public health
officials. And
certainly not protocol cops. But it makes
sense for us to
STACK THE
ODDS as high as possible in favor of
COMMUNITY health.
Maximizing community safety takes precedence over individual
preference.
That's the most responsible way to organize a dance. Not
just for
the
benefit of our dancers, but also for the
greater community in
which all
of our dancers live.
Mac Sloan
Thursday Night Dance, Concord Scout House, MA
Walker Sloan
sloan(a)medevelop.com <mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>
<mailto:sloan@medevelop.com <mailto:sloan@medevelop.com>>
>
> On 23/01/06 11:18 PM, Julian Blechner via Organizers wrote:
> > Question for anyone with the "you will alienate someone"
"everyone
> has a different level of risk" mindset:
> In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal
preference
> (like not wearing a mask) the same as someone's health
needs
(like
> > having a health condition, or a family member who does)?
> >
> > Like, how is this "both sides have a preference"
different
> from able-bodied people being like "Oh, well, I just don't
like
> > handicapped ramps, I prefer steps"?
> > I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love
explanation.
>
> I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people,
and not
just
> disregard people with medical conditions (or family with
them).
> > That is - making sure no area's dances are all >
There's a big difference between an area having _some_
mask-optional
> dances, sure, but if they're _all_
mask-optional.
>
> Thanks,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via
Organizers
> <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>> wrote:
> >
> > As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate > - would you dance if masks were
required
> - would you dance if masks were optional
> and so on.
> Then I picked the rules that
maximized the number of
dancers.
> dancers that you can't ask,
including potential future
dancers.
> But in my case it seemed like the
right way to do it.
> John Bloom
> _______________________________________________
> Organizers mailing list --
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
> To unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
To unsubscribe send an email to
organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:organizers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>>
7 Jan
7 Jan
9:11 p.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?
Julian:
Like, how is this "both sides have a
preference" narrative any different
from able-bodied people being like
"Oh, well, I just don't like handicapped
ramps, I prefer steps"?
I think we're on similar pages. You seem to be agreeing it's OK if some
dances are mask-optional as long as not all of them are—which I think I
agree with. I definitely wouldn't advocate that every dance should drop
their masking right now. Right now in the Boston area, where I dance, I
believe there are *no* mask-optional dances unless you count Worcester,
which is over an hour drive. So we have the opposite situation here: if you
would like to contra dance without a mask, you can't. I agree this is less
bad than people who need mask-required dances not being able to access
them, but I think it's still some amount of bad, since I have talked to
people (who, again, are not crazy or callous, but dear friends who I have
danced with for many years and who took covid precautions very seriously
for most of the pandemic) who have told me that they will stop contra
dancing if they can't find unmasked dances soon.
I think masks are not very analogous to ramps. An entryway ramp doesn't
have much effect on anyone's experience of dancing except to make the dance
more inclusive. Besides maybe construction costs, I can't think of much
downside to having an entry ramp and there's plenty of upside.
On the other hand, I think many people find that masks impair their
enjoyment of dancing. This isn't true for all of us, but it's definitely
true for some of us. A better analogy might be another covid precaution:
open windows. In the dead of winter a hall with all of its windows open
might be pretty chilly. In summer it might be sweaty and humid. But it
makes respiratory virus transmission much less likely if you make the air
inside mix as much as possible with the air outside. In the right hall, I
suspect having all the windows open would be *more* effective than a mask
requirement. But most dances I've encountered post pandemic still sometimes
close their windows if the temperature or humidity would otherwise be
unpleasant and I haven't seen a lot of hubbub about it.
Anyone who agrees that those dances can reasonably close their windows
understands that minimizing transmission does not necessarily mean taking
every possible precaution. (I'm sure you can think of other precautions we
also don't take at most dances, even if they'd make it safer.) So there's
acceptable debate on what precautions strike the right balance of safety
and enjoyment for your community. For some people masks strike that
balance, for others they don't. I think both views there are pretty
reasonable. (Personally I am not sure I would go to a dance without a mask
in the near future, but I do want people to have the option to and I'm
trying to explain why I see it as basically reasonable.)
I think an additional element here is that it's hard to see that the covid
situation is going to get much better in the future. When we were waiting
for the first vaccines, there was an obvious target time for when things
might improve. We don't have anything like that now. I think things will
continue to get less risky covid-wise over time, but I expect that it will
be slow and progress won't always be obvious except in retrospect. I think
people are reasonable for asking "If we can't dance without masks now, when
can we dance without masks?" It's possible your answer to that is "No time
in the foreseeable future," but I think a lot of people won't like that
answer very much. Again, I *don't *think every dance should immediately
unmask, but I do understand why our community is split on this and I don't
think the dancers who want mask-optional dances are crazy or callous.
Perry:
I have to question if now, this current moment, is the
time to be asking
this.
Cases are spiking now, but, if history holds—and who knows, it may or may
not—they'll be declining soon and I think it's good to have conversations
in anticipation of that. Right now is around the time when BIDA decided to
restart last year and, when our dance restarted in February, Boston
wastewater levels were at a 6-month low.
Harris
On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 11:19 PM Julian Blechner via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Question for anyone with the "you will alienate
someone" or "everyone has
a different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal preference
(like not wearing a mask) the same as someone's health needs (like having a
health condition, or a family member who does)?
I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love an explanation.
I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people, and not just
disregard people with medical conditions (or family with them).
That is - making sure no area's dances are all mask-optional.
There's a big difference between an area having _some_ mask-optional
dances, sure, but if they're _all_ mask-optional.
Thanks,
Julian Blechner
On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate
someone.
What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of the dancers
- would you dance if masks were required
- would you dance if masks were optional
and so on.
Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of dancers.
I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a lot of dancers
that you can't ask, including potential future dancers. But in my case
it seemed like the right way to do it.
John Bloom
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
8 Jan
8 Jan
2:22 a.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?
+1 to Harris's comment
To add something a bit minor and pedantic, however, wheelchair ramps are
*also* something where dances commonly compromise. I would love it if
every dance were accessible to everyone, but in choosing venues for dances
we need to weigh a lot of factors (floor, size, cost, location, ...) and in
parts of the country with a lot of pre-ADA buildings this often means
ending up somewhere without a ramp or elevator.
(Though I do wish dances would at least list on their websites whether
they're accessible via wheelchair)
Jeff
On Sat, Jan 7, 2023 at 4:12 PM Harris Lapiroff via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Julian:
Like, how is this "both sides have a
preference" narrative any different
from able-bodied people being like
"Oh, well, I just don't like handicapped
ramps, I prefer steps"?
I think we're on similar pages. You seem to be agreeing it's OK if some
dances are mask-optional as long as not all of them are—which I think I
agree with. I definitely wouldn't advocate that every dance should drop
their masking right now. Right now in the Boston area, where I dance, I
believe there are *no* mask-optional dances unless you count Worcester,
which is over an hour drive. So we have the opposite situation here: if you
would like to contra dance without a mask, you can't. I agree this is less
bad than people who need mask-required dances not being able to access
them, but I think it's still some amount of bad, since I have talked to
people (who, again, are not crazy or callous, but dear friends who I have
danced with for many years and who took covid precautions very seriously
for most of the pandemic) who have told me that they will stop contra
dancing if they can't find unmasked dances soon.
I think masks are not very analogous to ramps. An entryway ramp doesn't
have much effect on anyone's experience of dancing except to make the dance
more inclusive. Besides maybe construction costs, I can't think of much
downside to having an entry ramp and there's plenty of upside.
On the other hand, I think many people find that masks impair their
enjoyment of dancing. This isn't true for all of us, but it's definitely
true for some of us. A better analogy might be another covid precaution:
open windows. In the dead of winter a hall with all of its windows open
might be pretty chilly. In summer it might be sweaty and humid. But it
makes respiratory virus transmission much less likely if you make the air
inside mix as much as possible with the air outside. In the right hall, I
suspect having all the windows open would be *more* effective than a mask
requirement. But most dances I've encountered post pandemic still sometimes
close their windows if the temperature or humidity would otherwise be
unpleasant and I haven't seen a lot of hubbub about it.
Anyone who agrees that those dances can reasonably close their windows
understands that minimizing transmission does not necessarily mean taking
every possible precaution. (I'm sure you can think of other precautions we
also don't take at most dances, even if they'd make it safer.) So there's
acceptable debate on what precautions strike the right balance of safety
and enjoyment for your community. For some people masks strike that
balance, for others they don't. I think both views there are pretty
reasonable. (Personally I am not sure I would go to a dance without a mask
in the near future, but I do want people to have the option to and I'm
trying to explain why I see it as basically reasonable.)
I think an additional element here is that it's hard to see that the covid
situation is going to get much better in the future. When we were waiting
for the first vaccines, there was an obvious target time for when things
might improve. We don't have anything like that now. I think things will
continue to get less risky covid-wise over time, but I expect that it will
be slow and progress won't always be obvious except in retrospect. I think
people are reasonable for asking "If we can't dance without masks now, when
can we dance without masks?" It's possible your answer to that is "No time
in the foreseeable future," but I think a lot of people won't like that
answer very much. Again, I *don't *think every dance should immediately
unmask, but I do understand why our community is split on this and I don't
think the dancers who want mask-optional dances are crazy or callous.
Perry:
I have to question if now, this current moment,
is the time to be asking
this.
Cases are spiking now, but, if history holds—and who knows, it may or may
not—they'll be declining soon and I think it's good to have conversations
in anticipation of that. Right now is around the time when BIDA decided to
restart last year and, when our dance restarted in February, Boston
wastewater levels were at a 6-month low.
Harris
On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 11:19 PM Julian Blechner via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Question for anyone with the "you will
alienate someone" or "everyone has
a different level of risk" mindset:
In other areas of life, do you consider someone's personal preference
(like not wearing a mask) the same as someone's health needs (like having a
health condition, or a family member who does)?
I'm not asking to be mean or rude. I genuinely would love an explanation.
I think there actually _is_ a way to please most people, and not just
disregard people with medical conditions (or family with them).
That is - making sure no area's dances are all mask-optional.
There's a big difference between an area having _some_ mask-optional
dances, sure, but if they're _all_ mask-optional.
Thanks,
Julian Blechner
On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 5:56 PM John and/or Jan Bloom via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
As Alan said, whatever you do you will alienate
someone.
What I did with the Brunswick ECD was to ask all of the dancers
- would you dance if masks were required
- would you dance if masks were optional
and so on.
Then I picked the rules that maximized the number of dancers.
I realize that this is harder for Contra, where you have a lot of
dancers that you can't ask, including potential future dancers. But in
my case it seemed like the right way to do it.
John Bloom
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
9 Jan
9 Jan
5:05 p.m.
New subject: Is it time to end COVID restrictions at most contra dances?
PCDC (Portland (OR) Country Dance Community) ran a survey last fall about
our COVID policies. Our interest is to sponsor activities that will allow
the greatest number of our community to participate. The questions were in
the form of:
Given <<THIS>> policy are you:
- Likely to attend a PCDC event
- Undecided about attending PCDC events
- Will not attend a PCDC event
the 4 policy choices were
- Masked and Vaxxed (Current Policy)
- Masked and No Vax
- No Mask (Mask optional) and Vax
- No Mask (Mask Optional) and No Vax
The community response was pretty clear - we will get significantly more
participation by staying with our current policy, so that is what we're
doing.
There is a local English dance that is "No Mask (Mask Optional) and No Vax"
that is doing well (For various reasons there traditionally has been very
little cross between the groups. No issues, but we are "older" and they
prefer to dance with their own younger generation... It's all good)
If a local group wanted to start a Contra that is "No Mask (Mask Optional)
and No Vax", that would be fine as well, and PCDC would happily list it on
our calendars just like other non-PCDC events...
David
--
David Macemon
503-432-9700
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacemon/
720
days inactive
724
days old
organizers@lists.sharedweight.net
12 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Dana Dwinell-Yardley -
David Macemon -
Harris Lapiroff -
Jeff Kaufman -
John and/or Jan Bloom -
Julian Blechner -
Laura Alexander -
Walker Sloan