Organizers

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499 discussions

Re: [Organizers] Admission Table "Cash Register"?

by Lou Echeandia via Organizers

Hi, Don, Our dance organization has chosen a low tech solution that seems to have worked well. We put together a cash box and four tally counters (shown in the photo) that yields statistics for correct count for attendance as well as a means for determining correct attendance recieipts - or at least an means of determining error. The associated Dance Cash and Tally Box Record sheet provides a record and means of attaching any receipts for expenses that might have been necessary for the event, as well as the receipt for the cash deposit at the bank. Hope that is useful, Lou Echeandia Treasurer, Oakland County Traditional Dance Society (OCTDS) -----Original Message----- From: Don Veino via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: A list for dance organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Sat, May 14, 2016 8:46 pm Subject: [Organizers] Admission Table "Cash Register"? Hey all, Do any of you have/use a program for your door sitters which acts as a cash register? I've done some research to find a suitable simple program or app and have not found one yet. Most of the truly simple ones are targeted at restaurants/bars. There are some ticketing applications but they're aimed at theatres, etc. and nothing inexpensive at all. Need to keep it super simple for the door sitters and am hoping to use a touch screen Android tablet as the interface. Would love to greatly speed up the tally and cash box/accounting process for the night, improve accuracy and potentially create single use volunteer passes on the spot. I've started hacking up something on my own but before I spend too much time there I thought I'd ask what others have done. -Don _______________________________________________ Organizers mailing list Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net

8 years, 6 months

Spectator

by Mary Collins via Organizers

As the primary "door" person for the past several years this has fallen on me to resolve on many occasions. As a board member I know how costly it is to have too many "freebies" but I am also very aware of the good customer service, the kindness to new potential dancers, the spouse/sig. other of the band who has helped to heft and tote, the relative that would otherwise possibly not get to hear their family member perform, etc. We need to hold all of this and how our response will be translated in the re-telling of the experience. If we are to be open and welcoming we need to be flexible as well. Here are some of my judgement calls (all, some or none are not necessarily the policy of the group) - *Low Income* - Please pay what you can afford. *Family group* - charge adults, if the children are small...free. If they are older and dancing, the student rate is $5, if there are many I may let them in for a prorated "family rate" TBD. *Lookie Lou's* - Come in! See what we are about, maybe you'd like to try? (If possible, I steer them toward an experienced dancer) These people often come back for a whole evening of dance. *Family of the band/caller* - I generally leave it up to them especially if they are not dancing. They very often ask what they can pay or just pay for the evening. *Non -dancer spectator* - I tell them the entry rate and if there is balking or comments about "but I'm just listening" I explain that we all pay for concerts and that we do need to pay the band. Please make a donation of what you can. I try to never turn anyone away - we need every body we can get! Hope these are helpful. Mary Collins, Dance Caller Board Member, QCCD.org “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown

8 years, 6 months

spectator - charge or not?

by Jane Ewing via Organizers

I would like to know how many groups out there charge for a "spectator" to attend a dance. Also, what is the a difference between - A. The cousin of a fiddler coming in to listen B. Someone that wants to see "what it is all about" and might consider dancing in the future C. Parents that bring students in to dance. Jane Ewing Grant, AL

8 years, 6 months

just a note

by Chris Chin via Organizers

Hey, I've read a really useful article recently, you may like it too, please read it <http://ntingomeke.myinspiredday.com/best.php?hlj9> Thanks for your consideration, Chris Chin

8 years, 7 months

good news

by Chris Chin via Organizers

Hello, I've got a good news for you, you'lllike it for sure, read it here please <http://ngowintyca.choosecottage.org/recall.php?qu018> Hugs, Chris Chin

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Organizers] Building Contra

by Greg Allan via Organizers

Hi, I'm a fairly new organizer in Winnipeg Manitoba. There are some folk dancing groups here, such as international and English, who are familiar with contra dancing, and they have been the bulk of my attendees for the two dances I put on this season. I also do all the calling and hire/play in the band. It's certainly not a one man show, as I have had lots of help, from volunteering, to spreading the word about events, and great teachers along the way, but I AM the only person in the city promoting contra dancing to such an extent, or putting on contra-only events. I have come up with a few ideas that are helping to build the contra dance community in this city: 1. I offer my services to other organizations as a dance fundraiser. I have put on a very successful fundraiser for a friend of mine doing missions work. You simply approach an organization, like a church or other community group, and offer to do a fundraiser for them. They do most of the legwork, like renting a hall, advertising the event, getting volunteers, and handling the money. I prepare (or arrange for someone else to do) the calling and the music. Viola. In this way, you're able to mix the group of people wanting to support the fundraising organization and the group of people who already like contra dancing and just want to have a good time, even if it means paying a little extra. Be aware: you typically get a very unexperienced crowd, and should program accordingly. Two other organizations have agreed to do this, which are set to happen in the fall. 2. Get in touch with other dancing groups and offer to do a "themed" week/month, where they take a small amount of time out of their regular schedule in order to try something new. Again, music of some kind must be provided, and calling. I have done this with the English dancers, and I volunteer teach at the international group, always contras. Other groups, like Scottish, or sqaure dancing, might be interested. 3. Other ideas might be to host a special dance in a public location, like a busy park or a university center, to get some exposure and get people talking and asking questions. Generally, a younger crowd is more likely to attract more younger folk, but do keep it all ages and family friendly, as well. Get creative with your advertising. I'm not a social media buff, but making artistic handbills that make people wonder and intrigue them is a good technique. Host an event, like a typical house party, and make sure there's dancing and folk music, just to give people exposure. And of course, you must always put on a good show so as to not leave a bad taste in people's mouths. You want them waiting in anticipation for the next one. All in all, if you want to build, you have to reach out - in order to take in more people in, you have to give of yourself. Don't forget to let us know what's happening and how things are working out for you :) I'll do the same. Greg On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 8:10 AM, via Organizers < organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Send Organizers mailing list submissions to > organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > organizers-request(a)lists.sharedweight.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > organizers-owner(a)lists.sharedweight.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Organizers digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Admission Table "Cash Register"? > (Claire Takemori via Organizers) > 2. building contra dance (Claire Takemori via Organizers) > 3. Re: Admission Table "Cash Register"? (Dan Pearl via Organizers) > 4. Re: building contra dance (Paul Pindris via Organizers) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:01:09 -0700 > From: Claire Takemori via Organizers > <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > To: organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > Subject: Re: [Organizers] Admission Table "Cash Register"? > Message-ID: <64AEC47F-7B5B-465A-A120-FA82C0A2FCD6(a)mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi Don, > > What the Bay Area Country Dance Society uses is a sign-in sheet for > insurance purposes. Each person signs in and checks the column if they are > a BACSD member, not, or a student. No mark hopefully indicates a student > or under-income donation. This ideally gives us a head count as well as > indication of how many member, public, student rates were paid. No current > way to track donation amounts. > > > Claire (Campbell CA) > > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 15:36:47 -0400 > From: Don Veino via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > To: Lou Echeandia <lecheandia(a)aol.com> > Cc: A list for dance organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Organizers] Admission Table "Cash Register"? > Message-ID: > <CAAJTtiKNd99_MOK6S8=vPKN6ybqm6F-rAp_4Y= > B+8gixkDYeUg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thanks Lou, I like your gizmo! > > We have a somewhat similar approach built into our accounting sheet (see > link below). > > One side is for the door sitter's use and includes a tally area where they > make hash marks for attendance by type and record the various amounts > including the final cash box content at the end of their shift. > > The back side is our committee accounting and talent, etc. payment records. > Each data element labeled with a [XX] code in bold on that sheet gets > entered into a google form -> spreadsheet for long term tracking and I've > built some basic error checking in there. > > In my experience, the need to manually record the attendance is sometimes > forgot (particularly at the influx peak), resulting in deviation between > the counts and the final revenue. I usually end up back-calculating > attendance figures as a result. > > Thanks again for sharing your approach! > -Don > > Our accounting sheet is maintained at > http://mondaycontras.com/media/MonCon_Accounting.pdf > > On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Lou Echeandia <lecheandia(a)aol.com> wrote: > > > Hi, Don, > > > > Our dance organization has chosen a low tech solution that seems to have > > worked well. We put together a cash box and four tally counters (shown > in > > the photo) that yields statistics for correct count for attendance as > well > > as a means for determining correct attendance recieipts - or at least an > > means of determining error. The associated Dance Cash and Tally Box > Record > > sheet provides a record and means of attaching any receipts for expenses > > that might have been necessary for the event, as well as the receipt for > > the cash deposit at the bank. > > > > Hope that is useful, > > > > Lou Echeandia > > Treasurer, > > Oakland County Traditional Dance Society (OCTDS) > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Don Veino via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > > To: A list for dance organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net> > > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2016 8:46 pm > > Subject: [Organizers] Admission Table "Cash Register"? > > > > Hey all, > > > > Do any of you have/use a program for your door sitters which acts as a > > cash register? > > > > I've done some research to find a suitable simple program or app and have > > not found one yet. Most of the truly simple ones are targeted at > > restaurants/bars. There are some ticketing applications but they're aimed > > at theatres, etc. and nothing inexpensive at all. > > > > Need to keep it super simple for the door sitters and am hoping to use a > > touch screen Android tablet as the interface. Would love to greatly speed > > up the tally and cash box/accounting process for the night, improve > > accuracy and potentially create single use volunteer passes on the spot. > > > > I've started hacking up something on my own but before I spend too much > > time there I thought I'd ask what others have done. > > > > -Don > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:05:34 -0700 > From: Claire Takemori via Organizers > <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > To: organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > Subject: [Organizers] building contra dance > Message-ID: <EFC9D035-E973-48F0-84EA-F43FE8DF5B5A(a)mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi everyone, > > I just joined the list. I?m a new programmer (I book band, caller, sound) > for South Bay Contra in the Bay Area, CA. I?m also helping lead the team > of volunteers that manage the dance. > > We are trying to turn our dance into a sustainable one, as the past was > often only about 20 dancers and it was not making ends meet. > > If you have ideas on how to bring new dancers, get advertising at > colleges/schools, create a dance that is welcoming and safe, I?d love to > hear them! > > I?m also interested in what signs & policies you have for your dance for > dancer safety (Creepers, unfriendly comments, etc) > > Thank you! Looking forward to learning from your experiences! > > Claire Takemori (Campbell CA) > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 21:54:08 +0000 (UTC) > From: Dan Pearl via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > To: "organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net" > <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Organizers] Admission Table "Cash Register"? > Message-ID: > <152418869.3059305.1463349248497.JavaMail.yahoo(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > 1. Unless one has a trained small staff to work the admission table, I > would recommend going as low-tech as possible. > 2. If you MUST have a breakdown between different classes > (member/non-member, adults/kids, etc.) a tally works with reasonable > accuracy.? If you want more accuracy, consider having TWO people work the > table (especially if lines tend to build): one to do the cash, the other to > take the tally.? An alternative would be to use numbered tickets (for a > drawing during the evening) with different colors for different classes.? > Just be sure to record the first number at the start of the evening! > 3. Consider not bothering with the tally.? At the dance I help run, we > have adult/youth rates and don't bother to take a tally.? We operate on a > basis of trust with our door-sitters and the mix of adult/youth varies > during the year in unsurprising ways -- we just don't feel like we need to > capture that information. > > 4. Any system can be compromised by crooked door-sitter.? They can wink at > their friends and wave them in for no fee.? They could pocket some money > and not click the tally counter or put a tick-mark on the paper.? Anything! > In summary, I'd say a) don't collect data unless you need it; and b) > K.I.S.S ! > Dan >

8 years, 7 months

building contra dance

by Claire Takemori via Organizers

Hi everyone, I just joined the list. I’m a new programmer (I book band, caller, sound) for South Bay Contra in the Bay Area, CA. I’m also helping lead the team of volunteers that manage the dance. We are trying to turn our dance into a sustainable one, as the past was often only about 20 dancers and it was not making ends meet. If you have ideas on how to bring new dancers, get advertising at colleges/schools, create a dance that is welcoming and safe, I’d love to hear them! I’m also interested in what signs & policies you have for your dance for dancer safety (Creepers, unfriendly comments, etc) Thank you! Looking forward to learning from your experiences! Claire Takemori (Campbell CA)

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Organizers] Admission Table "Cash Register"?

by Claire Takemori via Organizers

Hi Don, What the Bay Area Country Dance Society uses is a sign-in sheet for insurance purposes. Each person signs in and checks the column if they are a BACSD member, not, or a student. No mark hopefully indicates a student or under-income donation. This ideally gives us a head count as well as indication of how many member, public, student rates were paid. No current way to track donation amounts. Claire (Campbell CA) Message: 1 Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 15:36:47 -0400 From: Don Veino via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Lou Echeandia <lecheandia(a)aol.com> Cc: A list for dance organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net> Subject: Re: [Organizers] Admission Table "Cash Register"? Message-ID: <CAAJTtiKNd99_MOK6S8=vPKN6ybqm6F-rAp_4Y=B+8gixkDYeUg(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Thanks Lou, I like your gizmo! We have a somewhat similar approach built into our accounting sheet (see link below). One side is for the door sitter's use and includes a tally area where they make hash marks for attendance by type and record the various amounts including the final cash box content at the end of their shift. The back side is our committee accounting and talent, etc. payment records. Each data element labeled with a [XX] code in bold on that sheet gets entered into a google form -> spreadsheet for long term tracking and I've built some basic error checking in there. In my experience, the need to manually record the attendance is sometimes forgot (particularly at the influx peak), resulting in deviation between the counts and the final revenue. I usually end up back-calculating attendance figures as a result. Thanks again for sharing your approach! -Don Our accounting sheet is maintained at http://mondaycontras.com/media/MonCon_Accounting.pdf On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Lou Echeandia <lecheandia(a)aol.com> wrote: > Hi, Don, > > Our dance organization has chosen a low tech solution that seems to have > worked well. We put together a cash box and four tally counters (shown in > the photo) that yields statistics for correct count for attendance as well > as a means for determining correct attendance recieipts - or at least an > means of determining error. The associated Dance Cash and Tally Box Record > sheet provides a record and means of attaching any receipts for expenses > that might have been necessary for the event, as well as the receipt for > the cash deposit at the bank. > > Hope that is useful, > > Lou Echeandia > Treasurer, > Oakland County Traditional Dance Society (OCTDS) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Veino via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > To: A list for dance organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net> > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2016 8:46 pm > Subject: [Organizers] Admission Table "Cash Register"? > > Hey all, > > Do any of you have/use a program for your door sitters which acts as a > cash register? > > I've done some research to find a suitable simple program or app and have > not found one yet. Most of the truly simple ones are targeted at > restaurants/bars. There are some ticketing applications but they're aimed > at theatres, etc. and nothing inexpensive at all. > > Need to keep it super simple for the door sitters and am hoping to use a > touch screen Android tablet as the interface. Would love to greatly speed > up the tally and cash box/accounting process for the night, improve > accuracy and potentially create single use volunteer passes on the spot. > > I've started hacking up something on my own but before I spend too much > time there I thought I'd ask what others have done. > > -Don > _______________________________________________

8 years, 7 months

Admission Table "Cash Register"?

by Don Veino via Organizers

Hey all, Do any of you have/use a program for your door sitters which acts as a cash register? I've done some research to find a suitable simple program or app and have not found one yet. Most of the truly simple ones are targeted at restaurants/bars. There are some ticketing applications but they're aimed at theatres, etc. and nothing inexpensive at all. Need to keep it super simple for the door sitters and am hoping to use a touch screen Android tablet as the interface. Would love to greatly speed up the tally and cash box/accounting process for the night, improve accuracy and potentially create single use volunteer passes on the spot. I've started hacking up something on my own but before I spend too much time there I thought I'd ask what others have done. -Don

8 years, 7 months

Re: [Organizers] Non-clique members in sensitive board positions

by Greg Allan via Organizers

Hi, Generally I concur with previous commenters. It seems to me, the problem you have with "sensitive board positions" is a matter of trust, ultimately having to do with money. Because this person is not part of the clique, then the folks having a discussion about changing the bylaws probably don't know them very well and are reluctant to hand over responsibility. Unfortuantely, that's not the way it works. Unless by "clique" you meant the entire dancing community of your organization, elections are elections: it's not the current cliquey board that gets to decide who serves as officer. That being said, there is yet more to say about the sensitivity of the finance position. Here, I would point to the bylaws themselves as a ballast for trust. If your treasurer is the only signing authority required for large monetary transactions, then this is the only bylaw I would suggest changing. If two signing authorities are required, I can't see there being much opportunity for embezzlement when, as a previous person commented, a second set of eyes is on the books. You can also consider drafting and enacting policies or standing resolutions regarding how certain business is supposed to be conducted. This will hopefully allay any fears of being taken advantage of. The difference between bylaws and standing resolutions and be found here <http://www.ehow.com/about_6590676_difference-bylaws-_amp_-standing-rules.ht…>. There's also much to be said about talking to this person face to face and letting them know what your trepidations are, and hopefully you can come to an understanding. Greg On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:52 PM, via Organizers < organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Send Organizers mailing list submissions to > organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > organizers-request(a)lists.sharedweight.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > organizers-owner(a)lists.sharedweight.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Organizers digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Non-clique members in sensitive board positions. > (Claire Baffaut via Organizers) > 2. Re: Non-clique members in sensitive board positions. > (Jeff Raymond via Organizers) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:00:33 -0500 > From: Claire Baffaut via Organizers > <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > To: David Kirchner <dekirchner(a)gmail.com> > Cc: "organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net" > <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Organizers] Non-clique members in sensitive board > positions. > Message-ID: > < > CADNUGEWSWdUDVYJ6vL4oOEKmCsyuRzp2RsG5HwxLB048yfncHA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Joe, > > Unless I am missing something, your situation is not something to avoid. It > is something to be grateful for. You must be doing something right to have > people volunteer for this position without twisting any arm. The treasurer > position is very important, yet it requires diligence and understanding of > what is required. The work is behind the scene and has few rewards. > > I have heard (and seen) of more organizations going under because of books > being cooked than I ever thought was possible. It happens more often than > we would want too, sometimes because the person is in denial of what the > numbers are saying, sometimes because the situation is too tempting to > resist. > > The best prevention is to have several pairs of eyes on the books and have > frequent changes of treasurers so that no one is too comfortable. It seems > that you are in an ideal situation for either one of those. You could ask > that person to review the books, or you could ask her to take over the > position, or you could ask her to shadow the current treasurer and learn > the ways it is done in your organization before she moves into the > position. What I am saying is that there are many ways for you to use the > talent in a way that benefits your organization, in the short and long run. > > Claire (Columbia, MO) > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 5:45 PM, David Kirchner via Organizers < > organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > > I guess I don't see the problem here. Someone wants to volunteer to help > > the organization. Yay! > > > > So the person hasn't danced much. So what? There are other people who do > > dance on the board, right? It's not like this person is going to initiate > > something that would hurt the dance and manage to carry the day against a > > bunch of dancing board members who would know better. > > > > If the problem is that this person would be bad for the board for other > > reasons (unrelated to the lack of dance experience), then you should > > address that the same way you would address it if a regular dancer who > > wouldn't be a good choice asked to join the board. > > > > David > > > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Jeff Raymond via Organizers < > > organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > > >> It is amazing how helpful new converts I mean dancers are and to ignore > >> qualified personnel because they are not yet fully vetted could mean > >> missing out on some good talent. > >> Qualifications and references are in order. > >> IMHO > >> Be well, Jeff > >> On Apr 26, 2016 5:16 PM, "via Organizers" < > >> organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> > >>> The situation is unclear to me. Is this person unqualified in some way? > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Apr 26, 2016, at 5:08 PM, Joe Kwiatkowski via Organizers < > >>> organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > It's annual election time, and a new dancer is answering the call to > >>> help the organization. > >>> > > >>> > The individual in question is someone known to a Board member and has > >>> "has served with other groups as funds manager/ treasurer type > positions". > >>> Using her talents, she has volunteered to lend them to the > organization as > >>> Treasurer. > >>> > > >>> > This has sparked a battle among (1) we need to amend the by-laws so > >>> this can't happen, (2) we need to mentor new people into leadership, > (3) we > >>> need to just vote at the general election and see what happens. > >>> > > >>> > A supporter of (1) claims that "that's what other clubs do". > >>> > > >>> > So without asking for the entire contra nation to take sides, let me > >>> ask you organizers: what would your club do/what does your club do to > >>> contend with or avoid situations such as this? > >>> > > >>> > Joe Kwiatkowski > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Organizers mailing list > >>> > Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > >>> > > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Organizers mailing list > >>> Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Organizers mailing list > >> Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Organizers mailing list > > Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net > > > > > > > -- > *Claire* >

8 years, 8 months

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