Hello everyone,
Thank you for your patience while I work out the bugs!
The sharedweight mailing lists are now hosted on Mailman version 3. You can see the archives here:
https://lists.sharedweight.net/hyperkitty/
The (super) old archives are also available at the old URLs and I am going to put a message at the top of them that redirects visitors to the new archives. The mail-archive.com archives will continue to work.
Let me know if you see or experience anything odd.
Seth
Hi everyone,
I need to make one (hopefully) final change to the server. The mailing lists will be down for a few hours, starting now. I’ll send an email all about the new set up once I’m finished.
Thanks for your patience,
Seth
The 'right Key' is conceded to be the singer's Key.
Most tunes and songs have more than one version or interpretation, which are melodic and/or rhythmic variances from 'how it was written' or 'what you are used to hearing'.
Looking at song transcriptions is is not unusual to see a part of the melody written as e.g. a half-note in one verse and as two quarter-notes in another verse to correspond to one word versus two words.
Many musicians (and even singers) will add different ornamentations which can add, subtract, and/or change notes.
Whether it is the same tune/song has to do with the overall 'sound', minor differences don't change the basic melody.
Yes, most tunes/songs tend to be played in a certain Key. I think that is because of how the notes fall on the instrument(s) it was written on and/or tend to be played on and/or sung in.
What Key is it?
That is determined by what note the tune/song resolves to and how many flats/sharps there are (the Key Signature) - this is really just a matter of what it is called.
I've found most Music Theory instruction to be confusing, recently I think I've managed to sort it out - I'll start a new message thread with my take on it.
Michael
Checking with John Burke an old time fiddler in Seattle he said Rubber Dolly is in the key of whoever sings it. Back up and Push is in C but the “B” part starts on the 4 chord (F). The same tune though...
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 8:30 PM, jim saxe via Musicians <musicians(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks to Jim McKinney, David Firestine, and John Beland for identifying "Dusty Roads" as "My Love Is [/She's] but a Lassie-O [/Lassie Yet]," also known by many other names (see
>
> https://tunearch.org/wiki/My_Love_is_but_a_Lassie_Yet_(1)
>
> ) including "Too Young to Marry," and not to be confused, by the way, with "Take Me Back to Tulsa," also also known as "Too Young to Marry."
>
> Regarding "Rubber Dolly"/"Back Up And Push," the annotations at
>
> https://tunearch.org/wiki/Annotation:Rubber_Dolly_(1)
>
> mention the song lyrics
>
> My mama told me, If I'd be goody
> That she would buy me, a rubber dolly
> ...
>
> one version of which can be heard, for example, here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPquvsacG5M
>
> Looking at the musical score on
>
> https://tunearch.org/wiki/Annotation:Rubber_Dolly_(1)
>
> I believe the words "told" and "me" in the song correspond the first two notes of the first full measure: a quarter-note for "told" and a quarter note tied to an eighth note for "me", both on C-sharp, or scale degree 3 (mi) in the key of A major. In the music for "Back Up and Push" at
>
> https://tunearch.org/wiki/Back_Up_and_Push_(1)
>
> (notated as 2/2 instead of 4/4 and in the key of G instead of A), I believe the corresponding notes are a half note on D (sol in G major) and a half note tied to a quarter note on A (re). So those notes are rhythmically the same in (the cited transcription of) "Rubber Dolly" as in (the cited transcription of) "Back Up and Push, but melodically different: "mi mi" in RD vs. "sol re" in BUAP).
>
> Listening to the rendition of "Rubber Dolly" at
>
> https://www.ceder.net/recorddb/viewsingle.php?RecordId=9791&SqlId=249698
>
> that I cited in my earlier message, I think that in the place where I've just described transcriptions on tunearch as having two long notes, the banjo player (Jack Hawes) on the record plays seven notes:
>
> told (ti-ka) me (ti-ka) ee
>
> And yet I can still detect (albeit with a little stretching) a resemblance between that recording and some recordings I've found of "Back Up and Push." But it does set me wondering just how much two musical performances can differ from each other rhythmically and/or melodically and still be regarded as renditions of the "same" tune.
>
> As I write this, I'm reminded of an occasion about 15 years ago when I was sitting in a dining area with one of my aunts and she asked if I knew what tune was playing on the P.A. system. I said I thought it was "Tea for Two" but she said it sounded nothing like "Tea for Two". Years later (unfortunately when my aunt was no longer living), I happened to hear this on the radio
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLDHCDz7S2g
>
> and the mystery was solved when the DJ announced the title.
>
> --Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Musicians mailing list
> Musicians(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/musicians-sharedweight.net
Hi everyone,
I’m having some minor delivery issues. I’ll be able to work on this again tomorrow. (I have to take care of my parenting trick-or-treat duties this afternoon and evening!)
Thanks for your patience. Please hold off on conversations to the lists for now.
Seth
Hello musicians,
At long last, Shared Weight is getting ready to move to a new email host. I will be working to transition the four @sharedweight.net lists to the new host in the next week or so. I’m sure there will be some hiccups during the transition, so please hang in there with me. On the day of the move, I will send an email saying that the move is in progress. (Any emails you send during the transition may not get in to the archives.)
Ideally, you won’t even notice the change.
This is just a heads up to let you know it’s coming.
Seth
PS - For those that care about the details, I’ve built up a Linode VM running Debian Stretch and Mailman3. Outbound list traffic will go through AWS since they tend to have a good spam reputation.
Hello all,
Changing the subject line to reflect the topic
of discussion.
Thank you, and please think and contribute if
you can. This could be a game changer.
Kind regards,
Paul
If people want to revisit the use of words,
please reflect that on a different thread.
Hey all,
This is a long email, as it includes three posts.
First, I hope people don't mind, but I'm ccing,
callers and musicians list here, as I think
we can collectively bring about a major shift
in habits w/ our concerted hive intelligence.
I am including the original two posts near the top of
this email, so callers/musicians list people can
see where this started. PLEASE feel free to
cut out the original lengthy posts when replying.
First:
On 10/7/19, Heitzso via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> I'm a believer that climate change is a real threat.
> I'm also a believer that our culture desperately needs activities
that bind people together rather than fractures them apart, and
I believe contra dance is an excellent way to do that.
(sharing weight, dancing with everyone, ...)
> I've mentioned the issue of how do we change our contra culture
to minimize our carbon footprint from traveling to non-local contra
dances to my wife, Jennifer Horrocks, a few times over the years
(she sews and sells contra dance dresses all over the country).
> Recently Liz Burkhart (on this email's "to" list) posted on Facebook
about her trying to alter her contra lifestyle to minimize her contra
carbon footprint.
> Cut-and-pasting from her post:
>> I've spent years with a contra habit that takes me to roughly one
dance weekend per month. The closest, besides our own, was 83 miles
away and the furthest was 795 miles. I am acutely aware that this is an
incredible amount of distance to be covered for just one weekend (sometimes
a week) for a pleasurable activity. It's been weighing on me more and more,
as it's becoming painfully obvious that our lifestyles aren't sustainable. My
lifestyle at home is mostly pretty simple, but I feel this nagging guilt
when I do something extravagant, like drive to Vermont for YDW. Although
we did our best to cram up to 6 people and our stuff in a van, we still
consumed a lot of fuel to make it happen. Some people flew, which consumes
even more.
>> I think I'd like to work on decreasing the amount of out-of-town events
I go to, and try to find alternative ways to get there. Carpools are great
and much better than driving solo, but we could do more. One dancer this
weekend took public transit and a bicycle from DC area to Vermont. A whole
band playing for a square dance weekend a few years ago biked from south
(I think New Orleans?) all the way to Nashville. I think this is really
admirable and more people should consider something like this. This
ongoing climate change makes our world a scary place, and it will only get
worse (it doesn't look like those with the power to fix it care to change
the high consumption status quo). It's also becoming more common for me to
have to drive distances to call contra dances, which is harder to find
carpool mates for. I'm not sure what that will look like for me - I am
fantasizing about a NE train/bike tour with dates far enough apart that I
can make it to gigs with this slower and less convenient transportation.
I'm also considering making a vow to never fly on an airplane again. Their
use is so incredibly terrible for our environment.
>> Has anyone been adapting their travel habits in the face of climate
>> change?
> I believe that we, our contra community, needs to openly start discussing
this issue.
I applaud Liz's public request for comment and solutions.
> Sincerely,
> Heitzso
> http://atgaga.com
Finally, my reply:
Yes, this is a very worthwhile discussion.
On a slightly side note, 2+ yrs ago a hydrogen station was completed
at a local super market parking lot 1 mile from our house.
I tried for 1 yr, writing emails and calling Stop & Shop, Toyota, Honda,
and people from Air Liquide who were the ones responsible for installing
the hydrogen station. I got absolutely nowhere for all this effort.
I was told repeatedly by everyone I could get to talk to at both
Toyota and Honda (both who make hydrogen powered cars)
that there weren't stations to provide fuel to start selling these
cars anywhere but in CA. To my knowledge (I live in Prov RI),
there are stations near Hartford CT, Mansfield MA (20 mi. from us),
Newton MA, (40 miles from us and close to Boston), and I'm sure
there are others nearby that I'm not aware of. Perhaps you know
of others you could add to this?
CA is the only place you can buy these cars (is what I'm told).
Someone mentioned OR. I called dealers there, and no luck.
SO, my very dissatisfied take on all this was that the industry
(car makers, etc) are doing worse than just dragging their feet
on switching to non-carbon based fuel alternatives. It pisses
me off no end (esp having a station 1 mile from home). But
honestly I don't know where to take this from here.
After all this effort, we switched out from a Toyota Echo ('05)
which had been getting just under 40 mpg for over 10 yrs, to
a Prius, now getting 55+mpg overall, but I'm still not happy
about the carbon footprint.
Biking is great, (but I'm afraid our household is a little to
old for that now), and public transportation is also a great
alternative. However, just for an example, I believe there
is no public transportation that will take you into Concord MA,
where the Scout House is, and where there is dancing at least
10X/mo. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
So I'd love to hear from others and apologize for this slightly
lengthy rant, but for one, I would LOVE to see hydrogen become
the rule of the highways. Their exhaust is water, and being lighter
than air, any leaks would go up, and not spread fire across the landscape,
as gasoline would do, should there be an accident. Oh, and the
Hindenberg? All that black smoke and all the fire after the first few
seconds was due to diesel to run the engine and the canvas bag.
Grrr!!!:-)
These lists rock,
Paul
Folks,
A few years ago (Dec 28 2015), I posted a message here with Subject line "Danceability of versions of the same tune" in which I called attention to these two recordings of "Sleepy Eyed Joe"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2RI8FlwvQg
Foghorn Stringband
~134 BPM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ajfs8tcyrI
Lyman Enloe (and ???)
(Is this really a version of the "same" tune?)
~131 BPM
and contrasted them with this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AntWbzdq60
Norman Blake
~114 or 115 BPM
I think that both the Foghorn version and the Lyman Enloe version are fine examples of music for old-time squares and that they could also be good for contras is played in similar style but at a lower tempo. But I said this about the Blake version:
> Again, the player is undeniably skilled. But somehow this
> rendition just doesn't do it for me as dance music. And I
> don't think the difference is just the slower tempo (about
> 115 B.P.M.) compared to the other two versions.
At least one other list member explicitly agreed that the Blake version was meant for listening, not dancing, and I don't think anyone offered a contrary opinion.
Recently, while going through some of my CDs, I realized that I had another recording of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" played by Norman Blake, which I then found is also on YouTube, here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rek6WqLfUVI
Norman Blake, Nancy Blake, James Bryan, Charlie Collins
~114 BPM
The tune is played five times through, with Norman Blake playing melody on mandolin on rounds 1, 3, and 5 and fiddler James Bryan taking the melodic lead on rounds 2 and 4 and
While this one is at a similarly moderate tempo to the other Blake version cited above, it immediately struck me as being in a more danceable style. And that applies to the parts with mandolin lead as well as those with fiddle lead, even though I generally prefer fiddle over plucked or strummed instruments as the melodic lead for old-time square dance music.
I invite other list members to play the recordings for yourselves and tell me what you think. You might also want to try playing each with the YouTube playback speed set to 1.25 (click the gear-shaped icon in the strip along the bottom of the YouTube window),bringing the tempo into the low 140s (which, to my taste, is about the top of the suitable tempo range for traditional southern/western square dances, notwithstanding Cecil Sharp's recommendation of tempos around 160 for the "running set").
Since I happen to have a variable-speed cd player as well as CD including the last-cited recording, I've also been able to listen to it at an intermediate tempo of about 130 BPM. At that tempo, it seemed quite danceable, both in the parts with mandolin lead and those with fiddle lead.
So what's behind the difference in danceability I'm hearing between Blake's two renditions of the tune? I don't think it's the tempos, which are nearly the same, with the second being, perhaps a shade slower the first. And I don't think it has to do with Blake playing mandolin on the second vs. (I think) guitar on the first. Do the backing musicians on the second recording could have something to with it? Is it mostly, as I'm inclined to think, that on the second recording Blake plays in a less-ornamented, more "straight-ahead" style? (And if so, can someone with more musical knowledge than I have describe what's going on in other terms that might be informative to an aspiring dance musician?) Or do you think the difference in danceability is entirely in my head, perhaps based on what kind of mood I was in when I first heard each of the two recordings?
Comments, anyone?
--Jim
P.S.,
The notes accompanying the CD with the second Blake recording cited above attribute the tune "Sleepy Eyed Joe" to Ellis Hall. A search in the Traditional Tune Archive
https://tunearch.org/wiki/TTA
gives surprisingly little information about the tune--just a mention of it as being on the flip side of a 1952 recording of "My Little Home in West Virginia" by Ellis Hall and Bill Addis.
I've also discovered that there are several renditions of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" in the Gordon McCann Ozarks Folk Music Collection hosted by Missouri State University
https://digitalcollections.missouristate.edu/digital/collection/McCann/
but I haven't listened to them yet. The McCann collection looks like a terrific resource, with 938 YouTube videos (or perhaps "YouTube audios' would be a more accurate description) digitized from tapes of jam sessions, fiddle contests, dances, interviews, etc. Lengths of the videos vary from under 10 minutes (for ones made from on partially-used side of a tape) to over three hours (for ones digitized from multiple tapes), but I'd guess they averaging an hour of longer. While someone has put a lot of work into writing descriptions that list the contents of these recordings (or at least of many of them), and while there's a search facility to find recordings based on those descriptions, the content listings don't include start times for the various segments. So even when you've found a recording, it can still take a while to work your way through it to the particular selection you want to hear.
--Jim
On Dec 28, 2015, at 12:28 PM, James Saxe <jim.saxe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> A while ago, I was listening to a bunch of old-time music and
> trying to wrap my head around what makes some tunes--or some
> renditions of some tunes--seem (to me) more suitable for square
> and/or contra dancing than others. Of course I know about
> crooked tunes not working for phrased dances. I'm trying to
> get at more subtle issues. I've just been listening to three
> renditions of the "same" tune, and I wonder whether any of
> you will share my reactions and, perhaps, be better able to
> articulate the reasons for then than I am.
>
> One of the tunes I came across in my old-time listening binge
> was "Sleepy Eyed Joe" as played by the Foghorn Stringband on
> their album _Weiser Sunrise_. It immediately impressed me as
> a great square-dance tune. I also think it would be fime for
> contras if played in similar style but at a somewhat slower
> tempo. (Tempo on the recording is about 134 B.P.M.)
>
> As of the time I write this, the _Weiser Sunrise_ album, which
> had gone out of print for a while, seems to be available again.
> You can hear a sample of "Sleepy Eyed Joe"--once through the
> tune--here
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JAPC1H6?ie=UTF8&ref_=dm_ws_tlw_trk6
>
> and the whole track here
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2RI8FlwvQg
>
> So you can listen for yourself and see if you agree with me.
>
> I also found a rendition of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" as played by
> its composer, late Missouri fiddler Lyman Enloe (1906-1997);
[Note: I was apparently in error when I referred to Enloe as
the composer. See the other quoted message below.]
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ajfs8tcyrI
>
> [tempo about 131 B.P.M.] Lyman plays his composition with
> undeniable skill and, I think, in a quite danceable style.
> His name wasn't familiar to me before, but now that I've
> heard him, I'll be looking to buy some of his music. That
> said, there's still something about the Foghorn's version
> of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" that makes it seem (to me) even more
> danceable.
>
> And here's a third rendition of the tune, played by Norman
> Blake on solo guitar:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AntWbzdq60
>
> Again, the player is undeniably skilled. But somehow this
> rendition just doesn't do it for me as dance music. And I
> don't think the difference is just the slower tempo (about
> 115 B.P.M.) compared to the other two versions. (When I
> play the Blake version with the YouTube speed control set
> to 1.25--thus raising the tempo into the low 140's--it
> sounds more driving, but it still seems to me that there's
> something lacking. Alas, I don't have means to play it at
> an intermediate tempo.)
>
> Thoughts, anyone?
>
> --Jim
On Dec 28, 2015, at 2:39 PM, James Saxe <jim.saxe(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> In my previous message, I wrote:
>
>> I also found a rendition of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" as played by
>> its composer, late Missouri fiddler Lyman Enloe ...
>
> After looking around some more, I find that "Sleepy Eyed Joe"
> appears to be traditional. It appears that I misread some
> reference to the tune *as played by* Lyman Enloe as attributing
> authorship. However this Google Books snippet of _Ozarks Fiddle
> Music_
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=2vm8OaHq_WcC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=%22sleep…
>
> gives notation for Enloe's version (which I still like almost as
> much as I like Foghorn's version) with the comment:
>
> Enloe does not remember where he learned this tune. He says
> he is aware that several different tunes have this title. ...
<snip>
