I'm just home from the awesome dance organizer's conference that just took
place in White River Junction, VT.
My mind is buzzing and I want to share some of my thoughts.
First, I feel so validated in my choice to invest lots of time and energy
into our local dances. Giving people the opportunity to experience
community in the context of social dance is a worthwhile and valuable thing
to do. I knew that already, but spending time with 80 other organizers
helped me to see this again, with new eyes.
Second, I'm energized about our dances, and about broadening the team that
manages the events. I see clearly that being able to help with the dance is
a privilege and an honor. I can feel good about tapping a regular on the
shoulder and saying, "would you like to be part of the team that puts this
dance on"?
I'm so happy that we already have this venue of Shared Weight - Organizers.
Let's keep the energy and support that we had this weekend flowing.
Thanks to CDSS, NEFFA, DEFFA, New England Dancing Masters, MFS, and the
hard work of Chrissy Fowler, Delia Clark, Linda Henry and Mary Wesley.
--
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103582272438&s=522&e=001yMXrq9ir0gBX7ESCD5f3q…>
lisa(a)lisasieverts.com
603-762-0235
Just a reminder to be kind to our digest receiving friends. Please make
sure the subject line is relevant to your post and trim away any
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There's a lot of traffic this week, so it makes for very long digests.
Thanks!
Chris Weiler
your friendly neighborhood admin
Craftsbury, VT
So, Dave, are you saying that you take out a different dollar amount each dance for all of these categories based on what comes in the door on a given night?
If so, I'm having a mind-blowing accounting experience here. Does anyone else do this sort of thing?
We take out a flat amount each dance for dance organization expenses (which just about covers all annual expenses for insurance, promo, supplies, etc), the actual amounts for hall-sound-stipends-guarantees, then divvy the rest up between performers (80%) and series kitty (20%). Kitty is our safety net in case attendance income fails to cover our expenses on a given night.
Chrissy Fowler
> -----------------------------
> Ok, here's how our dance calculates performer and hall pay.
>
> Hall is 30%, Performers: 53%, Sound 9.5%, which leaves 7.5% for our dance
> organization. Out of that 7.5%, we pay all of our other expenses (ASCAP
> fees, an extra 25 cents per person that goes out to the organization that
> runs the hall, insurance). We also have a performer minimum of, I believe,
> $125 each, and a sound tech maximum, but I don't know what that max is.
> The hall has a minimum take as well, but we never have low enough
> attendance to trigger that.
Weighing in for myself (without consulting w my committee-mates)
General Systems
1. I tend to agree with sentiments that structure and general things are helpful to share amongst ourselves as dance organizers, but I don't think that the utility of knowing specific numbers of a dances finances outweighs the need to maintain privacy, especially when actual performer pay is so tied to things out of the complete control of the organizers (attendance.) [We can do our best to ensure healthy attendance, but it's impossible to predict, as we all know.]
I can see the clear utility of sharing spreadsheet arrangements, data tracking mechanisms, reports, accounting systems, ways that other dances deal with compensation (formulas), and the like. Learning about other groups' systems is hugely helpful.
There's some of this sort of thing posted in the Puttin' On the Dance archive (www.puttinonthedance.org) and I can imagine sharing systems would be useful. (I could even post such things in the archive there, for easy access to all, if certain groups wanted to share documents with the general dance organizing community.)
Specific Financial Data
2. While I also can imagine getting something from knowing 'the numbers', such as what other dances consider 'expenses", including what those specific costs are (such as hall rental, insurance, publicity, marketing, website maintenance, any organizational stipends, etc.) as well as some averages, like average performer compensation, average overall take, etc. --- I don't necessarily think it's vital. And it feels a little weird, sort of like me asking someone their annual income. (Not a question I'd ask just anyone...)
Plus, I wonder where knowing those things might lead. Would groups feel they are out of the game if they don't take in $2k per night? Would performers get upset when they see that other performers made more at a series than they did? Not saying it would be all bad, but it does seem a bit 'tricky.'
I do appreciate what I see as Jeff K's core sentiment - sharing information within the community of dance organizers. Looking forward to more as it emerges.
Cheers,
Chrissy Fowler
Belfast, ME
First thought: some of us are 501(c)3 organizations, and I think this means our financial records are supposed to be open to public scrutiny - not sure of that, or if we are allowed time to "clean them up" first.
Second thought - bands that don't get as much as others due to poor attendance are often bands that are not as popular, for whatever reason - and might want that information to understand their market better...
Absolutely a tricky proposition, but certainly a fine topic of discussion for this forum.
And it feels a little weird, sort of like me asking someone their
nnual income. (Not a question I'd ask just anyone...)
Plus, I wonder where knowing those things might lead. Would groups feel they
re out of the game if they don't take in $2k per night? Would performers get
pset when they see that other performers made more at a series than they did?
ot saying it would be all bad, but it does seem a bit 'tricky.'
bobfab(a)aol.com
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oday's Topics:
1. Accounting for numbers (Chrissy Fowler)
2. Re: Accounting for numbers (Dave Casserly)
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Message: 1
ate: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:07:45 -0400
rom: Chrissy Fowler <ktaadn_me(a)hotmail.com>
o: "organizers(a)sharedweight.net" <organizers(a)sharedweight.net>
ubject: [Organizers] Accounting for numbers
essage-ID: <COL113-W27009221607929CF6FFB3F8D790(a)phx.gbl>
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eighing in for myself (without consulting w my committee-mates)
General Systems
. I tend to agree with sentiments that structure and general things are
elpful to share amongst ourselves as dance organizers, but I don't think that
he utility of knowing specific numbers of a dances finances outweighs the need
o maintain privacy, especially when actual performer pay is so tied to things
ut of the complete control of the organizers (attendance.) [We can do our best
o ensure healthy attendance, but it's impossible to predict, as we all know.]
I can see the clear utility of sharing spreadsheet arrangements, data tracking
echanisms, reports, accounting systems, ways that other dances deal with
ompensation (formulas), and the like. Learning about other groups' systems is
ugely helpful.
There's some of this sort of thing posted in the Puttin' On the Dance archive
www.puttinonthedance.org) and I can imagine sharing systems would be useful. (I
ould even post such things in the archive there, for easy access to all, if
ertain groups wanted to share documents with the general dance organizing
ommunity.)
pecific Financial Data
. While I also can imagine getting something from knowing 'the numbers', such
s what other dances consider 'expenses", including what those specific costs
re (such as hall rental, insurance, publicity, marketing, website maintenance,
ny organizational stipends, etc.) as well as some averages, like average
erformer compensation, average overall take, etc. --- I don't necessarily think
t's vital. And it feels a little weird, sort of like me asking someone their
nnual income. (Not a question I'd ask just anyone...)
Plus, I wonder where knowing those things might lead. Would groups feel they
re out of the game if they don't take in $2k per night? Would performers get
pset when they see that other performers made more at a series than they did?
ot saying it would be all bad, but it does seem a bit 'tricky.'
I do appreciate what I see as Jeff K's core sentiment - sharing information
ithin the community of dance organizers. Looking forward to more as it emerges.
Cheers,
hrissy Fowler
elfast, ME
------------------------------
Message: 2
ate: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:31:38 -0400
rom: Dave Casserly <david.j.casserly(a)gmail.com>
o: A list for dance organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net>
ubject: Re: [Organizers] Accounting for numbers
essage-ID:
<CAJkiw7zYN1MEbnDo4dRPtSHy1F2iN2qSe9WGFO0kjTkCMo7AeA(a)mail.gmail.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I have a different view. I wish dance organizers were totally open not
ust about general expenses, but also about specific pay amounts per dance.
Sure, it depends on things that aren't entirely within the dance's
ontrol. When running a dance, it is important to know how much money is
n appropriate amount to pay musicians. And you can't get that without
nowing average performer pay in other places. I don't really understand
ny privacy concerns, here-- this is information about a dance, not
ersonal information. As a performer, I think it's particularly important
o know how you are doing relative to the average take of performers at the
ances you go to. If you do worse or better than average generally, that
ertainly affects the decision of what gigs to take in the future. I don't
hink performers will get upset at getting less money due to lower
ttendance if organizers are open about their formulas. Keeping these
umbers secret just seems like a way to keep performers in the dark so they
on't complain, even if they would have good reason to.
I understand most people are not as open about sharing their finances as I
m (considering that anybody could look up my salary on several websites),
ut I don't see why the same concerns would apply to a dance's finances.
Dances are usually run by nonprofits, and even if your dance isn't, it's
till a community operation, and having information publicly available is,
n my view, quite worthwhile.
I'll consult with my committee-mates and check on my dance's actual numbers
nd formula, if anybody's interested in hearing it.
-Dave
-
avid Casserly
cell) 781 258-2761
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And by the way, I looked online and was reminded that there are some really interesting things in the POTD
archive, specifically the Organizing your Series section and the Money
Management section. Happy to post anyone else's contribution there.
http://www.puttinonthedance.org/post-conference/archive/
Chrissy Fowler
Just to clarify, since I think I was somewhat misunderstood, I am averse to posting the financial data from our individual dances, which is effectively posting the income of each performer without consulting with them. Not necessarily averse to posting averages, etc. Although... comparisons are odious. Right? ;-)
Posting things like average pay is complicated in our case since that figure varies wildly, because our per person bonus is based on attendance and on number of performers. Even for the same band/caller it varies from year to year. Why would we want to put performers in the position of calculating whether they do a gig based on what they expect for an (unguaranteed) bonus?
This is what we send to all performers re compensation:
** PAYMENT **
We split compensation equally among all performers, with a 4 person cap on band shares. If you propose a different arrangement,
please discuss it with Chrissy Fowler beforehand.
Each caller and each musician (for band of 2-4 members) can expect:
- $150 guarantee in 2013
- a bonus, given sufficient attendance (Performers share 80% of any remaining gate, after
expenses.)
Additionally, we pay $50 to the performer who provides
sound.Bands greater than four members will split amongst themselves a $600 guarantee plus four shares of any bonus.
If there are different arrangements (such as a different split), we tell all the performers on that night but we don't tell everyone else we've booked.
And for my part (as a performer) as long as I know what I'm guaranteed, I should be able to make my own decision about doing the gig. In some ways it shouldn't matter what everyone else is making, nor what the series is keeping for a bonus. (Of course, if dances are offering different guarantees for different performers, especially those who are performing with me, well, that does seem weird to me, but it's the organizers' prerogative. I suppose such behind-closed-doors negotiation is how women end up making less than men for the same jobs, but that's a whole nother thing, as they say.)
But I'm not saying no one else should publicly post their actual monthly financials. Just explaining why I doubt our series will.
Chrissy Fowler
I share Jeff Raymond's comments -- I suspect the primary interest was more toward HOW the various numbers, groupings, categories, etc., were arranged, not what numbers a specific organization entered into each box.
I'd love to see how a spreadsheet was set up so that other dance groups could adapt and utilize a good set of reports -- and I think (hope?) that was the original intent of the first post.
More, please.
Paul Marsh
Londonderry (NH) contradance
Doing only a little organizing these days but still I feel transparency of
the organizations numbers is very important, mostly as I have always
operated as a not for profit so all info is lawfully public.
If asked I tell all in a genetal manner.
But I would not post such on the net, as it also is the business of the
bands & callers as well.
I am more interested in how other folks gain results, not the details of
their bottom line.
But thanks for asking.
Jeff Raymond
I help run a twice-a-month contra dance series in Boston (BIDA), and
we keep track of attendance and financial information with a
spreadsheet on google docs. I have the impression that if we made a
read-only view of the spreadsheet on our website that it would be
useful and interesting to other organizers. Would you find it so?
I'm trying to decide whether it would be worth it to convince the rest
of our board to let me put it up.
Jeff
