First thought: some of us are 501(c)3 organizations, and I think this means our financial records are supposed to be open to public scrutiny - not sure of that, or if we are allowed time to "clean them up" first. Second thought - bands that don't get as much as others due to poor attendance are often bands that are not as popular, for whatever reason - and might want that information to understand their market better... Absolutely a tricky proposition, but certainly a fine topic of discussion for this forum. And it feels a little weird, sort of like me asking someone their nnual income. (Not a question I'd ask just anyone...) Plus, I wonder where knowing those things might lead. Would groups feel they re out of the game if they don't take in $2k per night? Would performers get pset when they see that other performers made more at a series than they did? ot saying it would be all bad, but it does seem a bit 'tricky.' bobfab(a)aol.com -----Original Message----- From: organizers-request <organizers-request(a)sharedweight.net> To: organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Tue, Oct 23, 2012 12:00 pm Subject: Organizers Digest, Vol 39, Issue 4 Send Organizers mailing list submissions to organizers(a)sharedweight.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers r, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to organizers-request(a)sharedweight.net You can reach the person managing the list at organizers-owner(a)sharedweight.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific han "Re: Contents of Organizers digest..." oday's Topics: 1. Accounting for numbers (Chrissy Fowler) 2. Re: Accounting for numbers (Dave Casserly) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 ate: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:07:45 -0400 rom: Chrissy Fowler <ktaadn_me(a)hotmail.com> o: "organizers(a)sharedweight.net" <organizers(a)sharedweight.net> ubject: [Organizers] Accounting for numbers essage-ID: <COL113-W27009221607929CF6FFB3F8D790(a)phx.gbl> ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" eighing in for myself (without consulting w my committee-mates) General Systems . I tend to agree with sentiments that structure and general things are elpful to share amongst ourselves as dance organizers, but I don't think that he utility of knowing specific numbers of a dances finances outweighs the need o maintain privacy, especially when actual performer pay is so tied to things ut of the complete control of the organizers (attendance.) [We can do our best o ensure healthy attendance, but it's impossible to predict, as we all know.] I can see the clear utility of sharing spreadsheet arrangements, data tracking echanisms, reports, accounting systems, ways that other dances deal with ompensation (formulas), and the like. Learning about other groups' systems is ugely helpful. There's some of this sort of thing posted in the Puttin' On the Dance archive www.puttinonthedance.org) and I can imagine sharing systems would be useful. (I ould even post such things in the archive there, for easy access to all, if ertain groups wanted to share documents with the general dance organizing ommunity.) pecific Financial Data . While I also can imagine getting something from knowing 'the numbers', such s what other dances consider 'expenses", including what those specific costs re (such as hall rental, insurance, publicity, marketing, website maintenance, ny organizational stipends, etc.) as well as some averages, like average erformer compensation, average overall take, etc. --- I don't necessarily think t's vital. And it feels a little weird, sort of like me asking someone their nnual income. (Not a question I'd ask just anyone...) Plus, I wonder where knowing those things might lead. Would groups feel they re out of the game if they don't take in $2k per night? Would performers get pset when they see that other performers made more at a series than they did? ot saying it would be all bad, but it does seem a bit 'tricky.' I do appreciate what I see as Jeff K's core sentiment - sharing information ithin the community of dance organizers. Looking forward to more as it emerges. Cheers, hrissy Fowler elfast, ME ------------------------------ Message: 2 ate: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:31:38 -0400 rom: Dave Casserly <david.j.casserly(a)gmail.com> o: A list for dance organizers <organizers(a)sharedweight.net> ubject: Re: [Organizers] Accounting for numbers essage-ID: <CAJkiw7zYN1MEbnDo4dRPtSHy1F2iN2qSe9WGFO0kjTkCMo7AeA(a)mail.gmail.com> ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have a different view. I wish dance organizers were totally open not ust about general expenses, but also about specific pay amounts per dance. Sure, it depends on things that aren't entirely within the dance's ontrol. When running a dance, it is important to know how much money is n appropriate amount to pay musicians. And you can't get that without nowing average performer pay in other places. I don't really understand ny privacy concerns, here-- this is information about a dance, not ersonal information. As a performer, I think it's particularly important o know how you are doing relative to the average take of performers at the ances you go to. If you do worse or better than average generally, that ertainly affects the decision of what gigs to take in the future. I don't hink performers will get upset at getting less money due to lower ttendance if organizers are open about their formulas. Keeping these umbers secret just seems like a way to keep performers in the dark so they on't complain, even if they would have good reason to. I understand most people are not as open about sharing their finances as I m (considering that anybody could look up my salary on several websites), ut I don't see why the same concerns would apply to a dance's finances. Dances are usually run by nonprofits, and even if your dance isn't, it's till a community operation, and having information publicly available is, n my view, quite worthwhile. I'll consult with my committee-mates and check on my dance's actual numbers nd formula, if anybody's interested in hearing it. -Dave - avid Casserly cell) 781 258-2761 ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ rganizers mailing list rganizers(a)sharedweight.net ttp://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers nd of Organizers Digest, Vol 39, Issue 4 ****************************************