28 Mar
2018
28 Mar
'18
2:58 p.m.
Ron,
I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial information. What
you write below is interesting:
In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area,
many callers have been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone
genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally, these
dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.
My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill in the pieces.
For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a decline in attendance while
callers were using calls like gypsy and other words like men and women? If attendance did
in fact dip, did it in fact pick up again when alternative words were used? Might be cause
and effect or a correlation or simply coincidence.
If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is something else
at work.
Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it works. Come
on! Does anyone need me to spell this out? If you don't believe me, Mr Spock, in
one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things must end" and I think
he's pretty smart!
Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below. It's not perfectly clear and of
course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or me?)have ruined your party by
not going along with what you and others want? Perhaps I don't understand. Would you
please care to explain?
In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for
practical advice, and there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started
throwing shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young
thing" to "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish
the tradition, but also reduces the objectification of women.
What does throwing shade mean? Does it mean that the sun was shining on you and that
someone blocked the sun? I'm afraid my college degree is from an applied institution
so I'd appreciate it if you could keep it simple for me in the future.
I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group and feel
that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and others not participate?
Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't comfortable with PC. Where
does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to give up? My memory is that this
incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.
Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email: It may be that
terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent. Here in Charlottesville
and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue. In other areas perhaps
that's not the case. On the English list people are reminded that folks from many
countries are members and that we should keep this in mind.
You want fries with that?
Tom
28 Mar
28 Mar
3:12 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] Politically Correct?
In NYC there are more dances now then there ever have been in the past. They are all
pretty progressive in Dance roles. Two are gender free and one is not but has a
significant majority of dancers that dance both roles and lots who dance with everyone.
Attendance fluctuates so it’s hard to tell, but right now we seem to be on a slight up
taking into account the higher frequency of dances.
Portland, ME had a thriving gender free dance that as I understand it came about as the
older, more traditional Dance wound down- maybe someone else with more knowledge will jump
in.
The Chicago scene has added two dances in the last year. Their queer dance is growing,
their regular dance that is very encouraging of people Dancing both roles is growing, and
the two new series (one revived) are on college campuses. When I was dancing there
Several years ago, the groups were less into progressive concepts. The groups were
smaller. Correlation? Maybe so.
Thanks Ron, Louise, Maia and Jen for the thoughtful responses.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:58 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Ron,
I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial information.
What you write below is interesting:
In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay
Area, many callers have been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have
gone genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally,
these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.
My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill in the pieces.
For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a decline in attendance while
callers were using calls like gypsy and other words like men and women? If attendance did
in fact dip, did it in fact pick up again when alternative words were used? Might be cause
and effect or a correlation or simply coincidence.
If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is something else
at work.
Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it works. Come
on! Does anyone need me to spell this out? If you don't believe me, Mr Spock, in
one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things must end" and I think
he's pretty smart!
Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below. It's not perfectly clear and of
course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or me?)have ruined your party by
not going along with what you and others want? Perhaps I don't understand. Would you
please care to explain?
In the case of this original post, Rich was
asking for practical advice, and there *was no* argument until a couple choice people
started throwing shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a
young thing" to "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't
diminish the tradition, but also reduces the objectification of women.
What does throwing shade mean? Does it mean that the sun was shining on you and that
someone blocked the sun? I'm afraid my college degree is from an applied institution
so I'd appreciate it if you could keep it simple for me in the future.
I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group and feel
that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and others not participate?
Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't comfortable with PC. Where
does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to give up? My memory is that this
incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.
Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email: It may be that
terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent. Here in Charlottesville
and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue. In other areas perhaps
that's not the case. On the English list people are reminded that folks from many
countries are members and that we should keep this in mind.
You want fries with that?
Tom
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
3:28 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] Politically Correct?
Yes in DC I have noticed one or two cross gendered people attending and some, not many gay
folks too. Perhaps these populations are finding contra for the first time or finding out
that it's a safe place to have fun.
I used to remodel houses in the DC area with a cross gendered person. There weren't
many places for him to go to socialize.
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 28, 2018, at 3:12 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby
<adeislauby(a)gmail.com> wrote:
In NYC there are more dances now then there ever have been in the past. They are all
pretty progressive in Dance roles. Two are gender free and one is not but has a
significant majority of dancers that dance both roles and lots who dance with everyone.
Attendance fluctuates so it’s hard to tell, but right now we seem to be on a slight up
taking into account the higher frequency of dances.
Portland, ME had a thriving gender free dance that as I understand it came about as the
older, more traditional Dance wound down- maybe someone else with more knowledge will jump
in.
The Chicago scene has added two dances in the last year. Their queer dance is growing,
their regular dance that is very encouraging of people Dancing both roles is growing, and
the two new series (one revived) are on college campuses. When I was dancing there
Several years ago, the groups were less into progressive concepts. The groups were
smaller. Correlation? Maybe so.
Thanks Ron, Louise, Maia and Jen for the thoughtful responses.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:58 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial information.
What you write below is interesting:
>
>> In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been
examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone genderfree without
being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally, these dances are
thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.
>
> My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill in the
pieces. For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a decline in attendance
while callers were using calls like gypsy and other words like men and women? If
attendance did in fact dip, did it in fact pick up again when alternative words were used?
Might be cause and effect or a correlation or simply coincidence.
>
> If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is something
else at work.
>
> Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it works.
Come on! Does anyone need me to spell this out? If you don't believe me, Mr Spock,
in one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things must end" and I think
he's pretty smart!
>
> Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below. It's not perfectly clear
and of course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or me?)have ruined your
party by not going along with what you and others want? Perhaps I don't understand.
Would you please care to explain?
>
>> In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice, and
there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing shade at those of us
who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young thing" to "she was a
young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the tradition, but also reduces
the objectification of women.
>
> What does throwing shade mean? Does it mean that the sun was shining on you and
that someone blocked the sun? I'm afraid my college degree is from an applied
institution so I'd appreciate it if you could keep it simple for me in the future.
>
> I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group and
feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and others not
participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't comfortable
with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to give up? My memory is
that this incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.
>
> Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email: It may be
that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent. Here in
Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue. In
other areas perhaps that's not the case. On the English list people are reminded that
folks from many countries are members and that we should keep this in mind.
>
> You want fries with that?
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
3:28 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] Politically Correct?
Tom,
Ron's point wasn't that changing terminology in some dances has been
beneficial; his point was simply that the terminology has indeed changed in
some dances, and he gave exactly the right amount of data necessary to
support that point. If you want to go do your own study on whether it has
been helpful in attracting new dancers, please feel free; I'd be interested
in knowing.
Since you've asked for data from Ron, it seems like it's important to you
to know the effects of changing terminology. So I do want to correct one
point that you've made, which is that people groaned in DC when you said
you would try to replace the word "gypsy" but might slip up sometimes. I
was there, and I groaned, but I wasn't groaning because I thought it was
ridiculous that a caller would replace the word. Nor was I groaning at the
prospect of you slipping up; everybody makes mistakes, and I've never heard
anybody complain about a caller using the wrong term when they were trying
their best not to. I was groaning at your aggrieved tone. You sounded
like replacing a single one of the hundreds of words you use in contra
dance calls was a huge inconvenience that only unreasonable people would
demand. I'm sure some people in DC agree with you and would prefer that
callers continue to use the word "gypsy," but that's by no means the
consensus in the community. Most people seem not to care much one way or
the other. If you want to know for sure, I'd suggest a poll, set up in
such a way that you're not just asking the people you already know and talk
to.
I'm also not entirely sure what freedoms, exactly, you are giving up when
people get annoyed or offended by the words you say. Everybody who is not
a sociopath takes at least some care to avoid bothering others. That
doesn't mean we're all giving up freedoms; it simply means we choose to be
polite. Nobody has proposed having people who say the word "gypsy"
arrested or fined.
For what it's worth, I also agree with Jeff that we are rehashing arguments
that have already been made on this board over and over again. Ron was
correct, too, that these arguments have made a difference in some
communities. That doesn't mean we should keep making exactly the same
arguments every time somebody asks a narrow question about a particular
lyric or call.
And, it seems like your question about the definition of "throwing shade"
was sarcastic, especially since we all have internet access and can read
Urban Dictionary. But it's tough to tell, so I'll answer. Throwing shade
is when somebody subtly insults somebody else without bothering to mention
them. The people who decide to publicly announce to the list that they are
leaving it after one of these discussions are throwing shade at those of us
participating. I don't think Ron was using the term correctly, really;
actually he was sort of the one throwing shade by saying that others were
doing so without naming names. I'm sure views can differ on the subject,
and you'll find a plethora of treatises on proper use of the term if you
google it.
-Dave
On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Ron,
I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial
information. What you write below is interesting:
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay
Area, many callers have
been examining terminology and changing. Several dance
series have gone
genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not
coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of
contra in general.
My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill
in the pieces. For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a
decline in attendance while callers were using calls like gypsy and other
words like men and women? If attendance did in fact dip, did it in fact
pick up again when alternative words were used? Might be cause and effect
or a correlation or simply coincidence.
If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is
something else at work.
Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it
works. Come on! Does anyone need me to spell this out? If you don't
believe me, Mr Spock, in one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things
must end" and I think he's pretty smart!
Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below. It's not perfectly
clear and of course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or
me?)have ruined your party by not going along with what you and others
want? Perhaps I don't understand. Would you please care to explain?
In the case of this original post, Rich was
asking for practical advice,
and there *was no* argument until a couple choice
people started throwing
shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young
thing" to "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish
the
tradition, but also reduces the objectification of women.
What does throwing shade mean? Does it mean that the sun was shining on
you and that someone blocked the sun? I'm afraid my college degree is from
an applied institution so I'd appreciate it if you could keep it simple for
me in the future.
I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group
and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and
others not participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us
aren't comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am I going
to have to give up? My memory is that this incredible discussion started
with a complaint from ONE person.
Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email: It
may be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location
dependent. Here in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care
for the gypsy issue. In other areas perhaps that's not the case. On the
English list people are reminded that folks from many countries are members
and that we should keep this in mind.
You want fries with that?
Tom
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
30 Mar
30 Mar
2:20 a.m.
New subject: [Callers] Politically Correct?
Hi Tom,
Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be
extra careful with alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the
"g-word" and then tried using other terms. She was actually trying to
demonstrate something else on the floor. The crowd said in a friendly
way but very clearly -- we don't care, just use the word "gypsy"! And
then she did, people relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.
The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended
long-term consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really
want to establish the contra equivalent of Callerlab?
Woody
On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
I've had very good conversations with Rich on and
off the discussion
group and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that
I and others not participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that
some of us aren't comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what
freedoms am I going to have to give up? My memory is that this
incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.
Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email: It may be that
terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent. Here in Charlottesville
and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue. In other areas perhaps
that's not the case. On the English list people are reminded that folks from many
countries are members and that we should keep this in mind.
3:23 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] Politically Correct?
Woody, I really don't understand your question. Please connect the dots.
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Woody Lane via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be extra careful with
alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the "g-word" and then tried using
other terms. She was actually trying to demonstrate something else on the floor. The crowd
said in a friendly way but very clearly -- we don't care, just use the word
"gypsy"! And then she did, people relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.
The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended long-term
consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really want to establish the contra
equivalent of Callerlab?
Woody
On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers
wrote:
I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group and feel
that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and others not participate?
Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't comfortable with PC. Where
does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to give up? My memory is that this
incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.
Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email: It may be that
terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent. Here in Charlottesville
and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue. In other areas perhaps
that's not the case. On the English list people are reminded that folks from many
countries are members and that we should keep this in mind.
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ 
3:33 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] Politically Correct?
As a member of Callerlab for 25 years, I can answer Woody's question with a
definitive "NO".
Callerlab does offer many benefits, but it has its drawbacks as well.
Standardization was supposed to be a good thing, and perhaps in the MWSD
world that is more good than bad, but it also diminishes the regional
differences of dance, and limits the expression and flexibilities of
callers. There is also an organization called ContraLab, and thankfully
its reach is limited.
Rich Sbardella
Stafford, CT
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Woody, I really don't understand your question.
Please connect the dots.
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Woody Lane via
Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be
extra
careful with alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the
"g-word" and then tried using other terms. She was actually trying to
demonstrate something else on the floor. The crowd said in a friendly way
but very clearly -- we don't care, just use the word "gypsy"! And then she
did, people relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.
The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended
long-term
consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really want
to establish the contra equivalent of Callerlab?
Woody
> On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
> I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion
group
and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I
and others not participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of
us aren't comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am I
going to have to give up? My memory is that this incredible discussion
started with a complaint from ONE person.
> Lastly let me suggest this after reading
Jeffrey's very good email: It
may be that terms like gypsy (and of course
others) are location
dependent. Here in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care
for the gypsy issue. In other areas perhaps that's not the case. On the
English list people are reminded that folks from many countries are members
and that we should keep this in mind.
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
5:58 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] Politically Correct?
Hi Tom,
Sure. The first paragraph describes the current situation regarding the
use of a controversial single word.
The second paragraph steps back and looks at the bigger picture within
our community. My speculation that the animus and hard feelings that
this word has elicited among callers, organizers, and dancers may result
in pressures to "standardize" terms. The logic then is by whom, then the
move to setup an organization with some sort of
standardization/certification/controlling power, etc. Hence the
historical precedent of Callerlab.
Woody
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 3/30/2018 12:23 PM, Tom Hinds wrote:
Woody, I really don't understand your question.
Please connect the dots.
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Woody Lane via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be extra careful
with alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the "g-word" and then tried
using other terms. She was actually trying to demonstrate something else on the floor. The
crowd said in a friendly way but very clearly -- we don't care, just use the word
"gypsy"! And then she did, people relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.
>
> The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended long-term
consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really want to establish the contra
equivalent of Callerlab?
>
> Woody
>
>> On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
>> I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group
and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and others not
participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't comfortable
with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to give up? My memory is
that this incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.
>> Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email: It may
be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent. Here in
Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue. In
other areas perhaps that's not the case. On the English list people are reminded that
folks from many countries are members and that we should keep this in mind.
2212
days inactive
2214
days old
import1@lists2.sharedweight.net
7 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Alexandra Deis-Lauby -
Dave Casserly -
Rich Sbardella -
Tom Hinds -
Woody Lane