Tom,

Ron's point wasn't that changing terminology in some dances has been beneficial; his point was simply that the terminology has indeed changed in some dances, and he gave exactly the right amount of data necessary to support that point.  If you want to go do your own study on whether it has been helpful in attracting new dancers, please feel free; I'd be interested in knowing.

Since you've asked for data from Ron, it seems like it's important to you to know the effects of changing terminology.  So I do want to correct one point that you've made, which is that people groaned in DC when you said you would try to replace the word "gypsy" but might slip up sometimes.  I was there, and I groaned, but I wasn't groaning because I thought it was ridiculous that a caller would replace the word.  Nor was I groaning at the prospect of you slipping up; everybody makes mistakes, and I've never heard anybody complain about a caller using the wrong term when they were trying their best not to.  I was groaning at your aggrieved tone.  You sounded like replacing a single one of the hundreds of words you use in contra dance calls was a huge inconvenience that only unreasonable people would demand.  I'm sure some people in DC agree with you and would prefer that callers continue to use the word "gypsy," but that's by no means the consensus in the community.  Most people seem not to care much one way or the other.  If you want to know for sure, I'd suggest a poll, set up in such a way that you're not just asking the people you already know and talk to.

I'm also not entirely sure what freedoms, exactly, you are giving up when people get annoyed or offended by the words you say.  Everybody who is not a sociopath takes at least some care to avoid bothering others.  That doesn't mean we're all giving up freedoms; it simply means we choose to be polite.  Nobody has proposed having people who say the word "gypsy" arrested or fined.

For what it's worth, I also agree with Jeff that we are rehashing arguments that have already been made on this board over and over again.  Ron was correct, too, that these arguments have made a difference in some communities.  That doesn't mean we should keep making exactly the same arguments every time somebody asks a narrow question about a particular lyric or call.

And, it seems like your question about the definition of "throwing shade" was sarcastic, especially since we all have internet access and can read Urban Dictionary.  But it's tough to tell, so I'll answer.  Throwing shade is when somebody subtly insults somebody else without bothering to mention them.  The people who decide to publicly announce to the list that they are leaving it after one of these discussions are throwing shade at those of us participating.  I don't think Ron was using the term correctly, really; actually he was sort of the one throwing shade by saying that others were doing so without naming names.  I'm sure views can differ on the subject, and you'll find a plethora of treatises on proper use of the term if you google it.

-Dave



On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Ron,

I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial information.  What you write below is interesting:

> In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.

My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill in the pieces.  For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a decline in attendance while callers were using calls like gypsy and other words like men and women?  If attendance did in fact dip, did it in fact pick up again when alternative words were used? Might be cause and effect or a correlation or simply coincidence.

If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is something else at work.

Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it works.  Come on!  Does anyone need me to spell this out?   If you don't believe me, Mr Spock, in one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things must end" and I think he's pretty smart!

Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below.  It's not perfectly clear and of course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or me?)have ruined your party by not going along with what you and others want?  Perhaps I don't understand.  Would you please care to explain?

> In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice, and there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young thing" to "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the tradition, but also reduces the objectification of women.

What does throwing shade mean?   Does it mean that the sun was shining on you and that someone blocked the sun?  I'm afraid my college degree is from an applied institution so I'd appreciate it if you could keep it simple for me in the future.

I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group and feel that he shares many of my values.  Would you rather that I and others not participate?  Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't comfortable with PC.  Where does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to give up?  My memory is that this incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.

Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email:  It may be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent.  Here in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue.   In other areas perhaps that's not the case.  On the English list people are reminded that folks from many countries are members and that we should keep this in mind.

You want fries with that?

Tom












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