6 Dec
2016
6 Dec
'16
5:48 p.m.
Hi folks--
Attended the local MUCC dance last week, and noticed that, for the second month in a row,
the PA volume was very loud.
At least one dancer was wearing foam earplugs. Trying to have a conversation, my companion
said he had to wait until the caller was finished with each phrase of instructions. I
thought about trying to talk with a sound guy, but then remembered that, in October, he
couldn't hear the content of our discussion (political) and how I'd had to repeat
everything I said, at a louder volume.
Since my hearing is going, I should be less affected by a loud PA.
In my view, this falls into the category of "providing a comfortable welcoming dance
experience" along with a smooth clean dance surface, cool drinking water that's
readily available, chairs to sit on when not dancing, and name tags.
So I posted an opener on FB, and received several interesting replies:
Googled-up data:
"Last contra dance I measured a few months ago was 82 db. Some concerts are louder
than that. Rock concerts are often 100 or 110 db. 80 db is a busy street or an alarm
clock. 90 db is noisy factory machinery at 3 feet. A motorcycle can get a ticket if it is
louder than 86 dbA."
[this is a folk music event, not a construction zone or a motorcycle run]
Dismissal:
"I heard no complaints..." [of course not, the PA was too loud!]
"...remember if there is only one person who is having an issue that person needs to
be aware they are sensitive and bring earplugs"
and
"Everyone's hearing is different and some people are more sensitive to loud
sounds. If you are one of these I suggest that you position yourself away from a
loudspeaker and from directly in front of one."
[Problem is, there are typically two lines, and they always form up directly in front of
the speakers at the top of the hall, which are positioned at ear height.
One line gets blasted at from speakers at both the top and bottom of the hall. In the
other line, it's okay if you start as a 1 several couples from the top, and then bail
out of the dance in the same position when returning as a 2. Or dance with fingers in your
ears.
In the thread, three people agreed with the original premise, along with at least two
others by my observation.]
Talk to dance personnel:
"I hope everyone know if they have a problem with something that's happening at
our dances that they are encouraged to talk to somebody
The manager or sound guys could've done something if they were aware there was a
problem"
"if an individual reports a problem we do check it out for verification. If a problem
is confirmed we do what we can to fix it."
Sound tech comments (they were not present):
"As a sound tech I keep the level below 80 db, have an app on my phone to measure the
levels."
"You can get a free sound meter app. for your ph. this will allow you to measure the
decibels. Over 80db (I think, it's either 80 or 90) is not good for your hearing. Show
the sound person and have them turn is down. There was an excellent thread on this subject
on one of the contra sites a while ago. Too many people think more volume equals hearing
the band / caller better. But it's really the EQ and volume. With the emphasis on the
EQ."
I also suggested that "it seemed like dancers were leaving early," and
someone's pushed back on that.
Comments and suggestions welcome. I'd like to continue supporting this local dance,
particularly since they are asking for more volunteers.
--Karen D.
6 Dec
6 Dec
7:16 p.m.
I like the idea of getting a sound db app and measuring the volume at various places in
the hall. Also, talking directly to the organizers. Good sound is hard, but that's no
excuse for making dancers uncomfortable. I also suspect you should talk directly to other
dancers at the event (during a break).
Also, I bet raising those speakers would solve most of the problems.
Lynn
On Dec 6, 2016, at 11:48 AM, karendunnam(a)gmail.com
[trad-dance-callers] <trad-dance-callers(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi folks--
Attended the local MUCC dance last week, and noticed that, for the second month in a row,
the PA volume was very loud.
At least one dancer was wearing foam earplugs. Trying to have a conversation, my
companion said he had to wait until the caller was finished with each phrase of
instructions. I thought about trying to talk with a sound guy, but then remembered that,
in October, he couldn't hear the content of our discussion (political) and how I'd
had to repeat everything I said, at a louder volume.
Since my hearing is going, I should be less affected by a loud PA.
In my view, this falls into the category of "providing a comfortable welcoming dance
experience" along with a smooth clean dance surface, cool drinking water that's
readily available, chairs to sit on when not dancing, and name tags.
So I posted an opener on FB, and received several interesting replies:
Googled-up data:
"Last contra dance I measured a few months ago was 82 db. Some concerts are louder
than that. Rock concerts are often 100 or 110 db. 80 db is a busy street or an alarm
clock. 90 db is noisy factory machinery at 3 feet. A motorcycle can get a ticket if it is
louder than 86 dbA."
[this is a folk music event, not a construction zone or a motorcycle run]
Dismissal:
"I heard no complaints..." [of course not, the PA was too loud!]
"...remember if there is only one person who is having an issue that person needs to
be aware they are sensitive and bring earplugs"
and
"Everyone's hearing is different and some people are more sensitive to loud
sounds. If you are one of these I suggest that you position yourself away from a
loudspeaker and from directly in front of one."
[Problem is, there are typically two lines, and they always form up directly in front of
the speakers at the top of the hall, which are positioned at ear height.
One line gets blasted at from speakers at both the top and bottom of the hall. In the
other line, it's okay if you start as a 1 several couples from the top, and then bail
out of the dance in the same position when returning as a 2. Or dance with fingers in your
ears.
In the thread, three people agreed with the original premise, along with at least two
others by my observation.]
Talk to dance personnel:
"I hope everyone know if they have a problem with something that's happening at
our dances that they are encouraged to talk to somebody
The manager or sound guys could've done something if they were aware there was a
problem"
"if an individual reports a problem we do check it out for verification. If a
problem is confirmed we do what we can to fix it."
Sound tech comments (they were not present):
"As a sound tech I keep the level below 80 db, have an app on my phone to measure
the levels."
"You can get a free sound meter app. for your ph. this will allow you to measure the
decibels. Over 80db (I think, it's either 80 or 90) is not good for your hearing. Show
the sound person and have them turn is down. There was an excellent thread on this subject
on one of the contra sites a while ago. Too many people think more volume equals hearing
the band / caller better. But it's really the EQ and volume. With the emphasis on the
EQ."
I also suggested that "it seemed like dancers were leaving early," and
someone's pushed back on that.
Comments and suggestions welcome. I'd like to continue supporting this local dance,
particularly since they are asking for more volunteers.
--Karen D.
7:35 p.m.
Karen wrote:
directly in front of the speakers at the top of the
hall, which are positioned at ear height.
That's very low for speakers, and sounds like it's contributing. The
ideal position for speakers at a dance is very high and angled down.
This means you don't have some people two feet away from the cone of
the speaker while others are fifty feet away. For example, at our
dance we have speakers on the stage (3.5ft) on top of tall stands
(9.5ft). Is there a way to get the speakers up higher at your dance?
(This is probably not the whole problem, though.)
Jeff
PS: we use
http://www.ultimatesupport.com/products/speaker-lighting-stands/original-se…
stands
8:09 p.m.
I would agree with Karen and with Jeff. But there are some people setting up PA with an
idea that ear height is right.
English ceilidh bands often strike me as too loud too.
And complaining to the PA man doesn't always bring a result.
Take care of your hearing. When you have tinnitus or hearing loss it's too late.
Mo Waddington
http://mo-dance-caller.blogspot.co.uk/p/what-i-do.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Kaufman cbr(a)sccs.swarthmore.edu [trad-dance-callers]
To: trad-dance-callers(a)yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [trad-dance-callers] PA system volume, addressing concerns
Karen wrote:
directly in front of the speakers at the top of the
hall, which are positioned at ear height.
That's very low for speakers, and sounds like it's contributing. The
ideal position for speakers at a dance is very high and angled down.
This means you don't have some people two feet away from the cone of
the speaker while others are fifty feet away. For example, at our
dance we have speakers on the stage (3.5ft) on top of tall stands
(9.5ft). Is there a way to get the speakers up higher at your dance?
(This is probably not the whole problem, though.)
Jeff
PS: we use
http://www.ultimatesupport.com/products/speaker-lighting-stands/original-se…
stands
9:50 p.m.
The idea is, you want it more like:
http://www.jefftk.com/hall-speaker-high-stage-tilt.png
than like:
http://www.jefftk.com/hall-speaker-low-floor.png
Jeff
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:35 PM, Jeff Kaufman <cbr(a)sccs.swarthmore.edu> wrote:
Karen wrote:
directly in front of the speakers at the top of
the hall, which are positioned at ear height.
That's very low for speakers, and sounds like it's contributing. The
ideal position for speakers at a dance is very high and angled down.
This means you don't have some people two feet away from the cone of
the speaker while others are fifty feet away. For example, at our
dance we have speakers on the stage (3.5ft) on top of tall stands
(9.5ft). Is there a way to get the speakers up higher at your dance?
(This is probably not the whole problem, though.)
Jeff
PS: we use
http://www.ultimatesupport.com/products/speaker-lighting-stands/original-se…
stands 
7 Dec
7 Dec
10:59 p.m.
Just FYI, some phones' audio systems are limited. For instance, on many Samsung
phones, a sound meter app won't register over 80dB because of the phone's
limitation, which I had to determine from experimentation.
---In trad-dance-callers(a)yahoogroups.com, <garren@...> wrote :
I like the idea of getting a sound db app and measuring the volume at various places in
the hall. Also, talking directly to the organizers. Good sound is hard, but that's no
excuse for making dancers uncomfortable. I also suspect you should talk directly to other
dancers at the event (during a break).
Also, I bet raising those speakers would solve most of the problems.
Lynn
10 Dec
10 Dec
2:16 p.m.
Bumping this in case anyone who missed it would like to comment. I plan to synthesize all
the suggestions and share with the organizers.
The comments about some phones not working correctly, needing calibration, and 15-second
readings are particularly interesting. Thanks!
--Karen D.
7:24 p.m.
On 2016-12-10 0616, karendunnam(a)gmail.com [trad-dance-callers] wrote:
Bumping this in case anyone who missed it would like
to comment. I plan
to synthesize all the suggestions and share with the organizers.
The comments about some phones not working correctly, needing
calibration, and 15-second readings are particularly interesting. Thanks!
--Karen D.
Hullo Karen,
I think some callers might enjoy reading (some of) the chat on the
Contra Sound Forum. Sound engineers and others with requests discuss
various aspects of sound reinforcement and equipment.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contrasf/
I think you might find some useful characteristics of a "dancer kindly"
set up there, for the asking.
Bob Mills has a good book ("All Mixed Up") which is available in paper
form from CDSS, and on his web site for the reading.
http://bobmills.org/amu/
Points like speaker placement, number of speakers for a hall of a given
size, who controls what, when to set what, who is running sound (what
musical/dance background, experience, interest, hearing loss, has your
sound person), levels, etc. are all available, for those that will.
Cheers, John
--
J.D. Erskine
Victoria, BC
Island Dance - Folk & Country
dance info - site & mail list
Vancouver Island & BC islands
http://members.shaw.ca/island.dance/
6 Dec
6 Dec
9:18 p.m.
I'm a sound tech at the Thursday Night Dance in Mt. Airy (Philly) and help
coordinate the sound staff. We've had a fair amount of communication on
this topic recently -- nothing conclusive but addressing the topic in
different ways.
A few thoughts:
Yes, you can get db Meter apps for IOS and Android phones. Important
consideration, you need to calibrate -- at least get in the ballpark. The
microphones in phones are all different. My Android add needs to be
adjusted upward 22 db to get in sync with my Radio Shack digital db meter.
That said, we do have tools now to provide at least relative measures of
loudness, so we can avoid a lot of the fuzzyness that has accompanied this
kind of discussion in the past.
Speaker placement does make a big difference. A little elevation or change
of direction can make a big difference, especially to dancers at the very
top of contra lines.
Attendance and "room noise" make a big difference -- when you have a lot of
people you seed more volume.
Sound levels can depend on instruments, too. Probably not the case in the
venue here, but I have worked in places where they used an acoustic piano.
When that's the case, other instruments and caller levels have to be higher
-- the un-amplified sound of the piano sets the base level for sound. But
going with just an un-amplified piano -- that doesn't give you a good mix,
so you need mic and amp it up a little, to get a good band sound (in my
opinion).
Dance music sound has a very wide dynamic range. So, with db meter in
hand, what do you care about -- peak volume, "average" volume (and when
how/when do you measure peak or average?
I've had people express concerns about sound levels and put it in context
with OSHA standards. So I looked up OSHA standards. The limits are for
sound at a continuous level -- like a machine or engine running
continuously -- are are are scaled like this: no more than 100 db for 2
hours continuously, no more than 97db for three hours; no more than 95 db
for 4 hours. You might approach these limits at a rock concert or outdoor
music festival -- but no contra dance I've ever been to approaches OSHA
limits. Not even close.
Personally, I have always run sound a little hot (loud) and have had very
few complaints. My SOP over the years has been to use my trusty Radio Shack
DB meter from the middle of the hall. I use a setting that allows me to
measure sound levels for a time -- 10 or 15 seconds usually. After the
time elapses, I can check the peak reading and the low reading. I avoid
balances during the reading. If I see that the peak reading (not continuous
reading) is hitting/exceeding 95 db on my meter, I cut back a little.
Overall, I adjust so that we are never going over 95.
That said, I have had people say to me that volume readings should never go
about 80db and such. Realizing that db readings are logarithmic (90 db is
10 times louder than 80 db), that just seems much to low to me (and it may
be that there's an issue with calibration of the meter??). And by the way,
what about your favorite touring band that does it's own sound. Everybody
loves it. What levels are they running? Recently we had a big name band
that does its own sound pass through and one of my colleagues took readings
(we are in fairly close agreement with our meter readings. Spot checks
during the waltz showed 99.9 db peak and 92.6 for low.
My sort of conclusions about all this.
It's very subjective, but on the whole, louder music is more exciting and
energizing. As a dancer, I want to feel that the band is right in the room
with me, not off on the back of a stage somewhere.
We need to listen to complaints/concerns and make an effort to address them
appropriately. That might mean reducing volume. It might mean tweaking
the EQ in some way. Might mean raising the speakers. The 100 percent wrong
thing for a sound tech to do is to behave with arrogance and suggest to the
person that "it's your problem." If there's an unhappy dancer, it is
our
problem. We may not be able to fix it, but it's our problem.
db measuring tools can be very useful and phone-based tools are free. But
-- you have to have a reference source to calibrate. Then, if people want
to talk about sound levels, you can pull out a measuring tool and have an
intelligent discussion.
Thanks for listening.
Ridge
--
Ridge Kennedy [Exit 145]
When you stumble, make it part of the dance. - Anonymous
And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least
once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at
least one laugh. - Friedrich Nietzsche
7 Dec
7 Dec
12:19 a.m.
Yes, you can get db Meter apps for IOS and Android
phones.
I'm definitely feeling old fashioned. Do you really need all these
technical gizmatrons? If 4-5 people in the hall say it's too loud,
then it's too loud-end of story.
How about some social engineering instead? If you find a bunch of
people who also think it's too loud, get them to tell the guy the
same thing in a short period of time. It might just sink in.
Attendance and "room noise" make a big
difference -- when you have
a lot of people you seed more volume.
When you have a lot of people they also need to listen more and be
respectful. Perhaps that's a hard sell in some areas.
I agree that the level can add to the excitement BUT it can also get
on people's nerves in a way that's not always conscious. I prefer a
level that various throughout the evening to give people a break.
Tom
12:44 a.m.
Tom said:
I'm definitely feeling old fashioned. Do you
really need all these
technical gizmatrons? If 4-5 people in the hall say it's
too loud, then
it's too loud-end of story.
I think the gizmos give you a reality check even if, as a tech, you only
use it for your own reference. I think they are a plus (and my old Radio
Shack meter is a long way from high tech these days.) My experience, it's
usually only one person who thinks it's too loud. If two or four people
said it to me, I would take it very, very seriously. As noted, customer
satisfaction on all fronts is the goal and a sound tech should never "blow
off" any concern expressed. I will tweak for one, ask if it's OK and really
try to make him/her happy.
I agree that the level can add to the excitement BUT it
can also get on
people's nerves in a way that's not always conscious. I
prefer a level that
various throughout the evening to give people a break.
You're suggesting that sound tech should raise and lower house sound
throughout the evening?? If so, I'll disagree on that. I'll leave that up
to the band. The musicians I like to work with most put a lot of care and
thought and practice into their presentation. In my sound tech role, I
want to give them clean, comfortable mixes in the main and in their
monitors, and let them provide the dynamic range -- from the slinky jigs
that end in a whisper to the big time, high energy (and high volume) reels
-- and so on.
Correct me if I'm barking up the wrong tree, here.
By the way -- you're calling with Big Phat American K-Lee Band for New
Year's Even in Philly (where I'm sorry I won't be doing sound) but I would
suspect it's going to be a little bit on the loud side of the spectrum.
And way too much fun for anyone to stay away.
Anon.
Ridge
--
Ridge Kennedy [Exit 145]
When you stumble, make it part of the dance. - Anonymous
And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least
once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at
least one laugh. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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days inactive
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trad-callers@lists.sharedweight.net
10 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
contra_groups_yahoo＠veino.com -
JD Erskine -
Jeff Kaufman -
karendunnam＠gmail.com -
Lynn Garren -
Mo Waddington -
Ridge Kennedy -
Tom Hinds