29 Nov
2015
29 Nov
'15
9:58 p.m.
Google is your friend...?
http://www.folk-network.com/miscellany/hardy.html
CJB
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 29/11/15, Alan Winston winston(a)slac.stanford.edu [trad-dance-callers]
<trad-dance-callers(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: [trad-dance-callers] Triple Minor Progression
To: trad-dance-callers(a)yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 29 November, 2015, 21:49
I honestly don't know what they did when they
got to the bottom of the
line. Susan de Guardiola has read much more extensively
than I have and
may have encountered some discussion of this.
One interesting thing in some dance sources is "neutral
couples". (I
read a piece by Thomas Hardy which I can't find now
where he describes
"College Hornpipe" in considerable detail, and
this finally got me to
understand how it works. Mr. Wilson advocated them but I
didn't
understand his explanation.)
Essentially, take hands eight for a triple minor. You have
1,2,3, and
neutral. Run the dance once. The neutrals are now threes.
On the
second round, after a progression,
the old 2s are neutral (or out at the top), the old 3s are
2s, the old
neutrals are 3s.
At the beginning of the third round, the couple out at the
top comes in
(yup, after being out only once).
If I were actually trying to get a crowd to do this, I think
I would
just have the 1s who only have 1 more couple just step down,
the way
they do it in RSCDS Scottish. I can't give a strong
justification for
this, but remember (in Georgian England, anyway, and likely
in Colonial
America in landholding circles) that standing up together at
dances was
a major opportunity for unchaperoned conversation, so
standing out more
was a feature rather than a bug, and also that the 1s might
have just
danced down a line of 30 couples and could probably tolerate
not dancing
one round. If you were doing the neutral couple thing , if
you danced
one round with ghosts then you might be back in as threes
immediately,
without any time out at all.
Even without neutral couples, it's likely more sociable
to just step
down and have a brief chat with the other couple.
-- Alan
On 11/29/15 11:06 AM, Tom Willson tjwill3(a)sbcglobal.net
[trad-dance-callers] wrote:
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162 --
#yiv9962366162ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mkp #yiv9962366162hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mkp #yiv9962366162ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mkp .yiv9962366162ad {
padding:0 0;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mkp .yiv9962366162ad p {
margin:0;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mkp .yiv9962366162ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9962366162ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9962366162ygrp-lc #yiv9962366162hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9962366162ygrp-lc .yiv9962366162ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162activity span {
font-weight:700;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162activity span
.yiv9962366162underline {
text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9962366162 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162bold a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9962366162 dd.yiv9962366162last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}
#yiv9962366162 dd.yiv9962366162last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}
#yiv9962366162 dd.yiv9962366162last p
span.yiv9962366162yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}
#yiv9962366162 div.yiv9962366162attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9962366162 div.yiv9962366162attach-table {
width:400px;}
#yiv9962366162 div.yiv9962366162file-title a, #yiv9962366162
div.yiv9962366162file-title a:active, #yiv9962366162
div.yiv9962366162file-title a:hover, #yiv9962366162
div.yiv9962366162file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9962366162 div.yiv9962366162photo-title a,
#yiv9962366162 div.yiv9962366162photo-title a:active,
#yiv9962366162 div.yiv9962366162photo-title a:hover,
#yiv9962366162 div.yiv9962366162photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9962366162 div#yiv9962366162ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv9962366162ygrp-msg p a span.yiv9962366162yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162green {
color:#628c2a;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}
#yiv9962366162 o {
font-size:0;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162reco-category {
font-size:77%;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}
#yiv9962366162 .yiv9962366162replbq {
margin:4px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv9962366162 input, #yiv9962366162 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv9962366162
code {
font:115% monospace;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-mlmsg #yiv9962366162logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-msg
p#yiv9962366162attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-reco
#yiv9962366162reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-sponsor #yiv9962366162ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-sponsor #yiv9962366162ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-sponsor #yiv9962366162ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}
#yiv9962366162 #yiv9962366162ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv9962366162
As I am looking into Colonial and Early American
dances
and seeing that most of them seem to be triple minors, a
question popped into my head: how did they do the
progression at the bottom of the line? I know that they
started these dances differently (i.e. the top couple
"teaching" the dance as they went down the line),
but I am curious as to how they handled the progression at
the bottom. I know of two ways we do it now (dancing with
"ghosts" or the bottom 2 (inactive) couples
trading places), but I am wondering how they did it back
then.
Tom Willson
Simi Valley, CA
------------------------------------
Posted by: Tom Willson <tjwill3(a)sbcglobal.net>
------------------------------------
The Traditional Dance Callers List: Subscribe by
sending a blank e-mail message (no subject, no message) to:
trad-dance-callers-subscribe(a)yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
30 Nov
30 Nov
9:10 a.m.
New subject: Triple Minor Progression
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 21:58:44 +0000 (UTC), Chris J Brady
chrisjbrady(a)yahoo.com [trad-dance-callers] wrote:
Google is your friend...?
http://www.folk-network.com/miscellany/hardy.html
If you're talking about the notation of the College Hornpipe at the
bottom of the page, I don't think it makes sense. The final move -
"The three couples whole pousette" - I take to mean a half poussette
at the top (to 2-1-3) and then a half poussette at the bottom (to
2-3-1). He says this leaves the second couple at the top, and the next
paragraph starts: "The original top couple being now in the third
place..."
That's a double progression, which in my opinion cannot work in a
triple minor. But notice that in his description of the second turn
of the dance he says: "Tune ends, the original top couple being in the
original fourth couple's place". That is (somehow) a single
progression, and I agree that in this case the new top couple can
start the dance with the two couples below them. But I don't believe
there was ever a traditional dance which alternated between double and
triple progression. They didn't have a caller to remind them which
turn was which, and there would have been complete chaos!
Colin Hume
Email colin(a)colinhume.com Web site http://colinhume.com
9:53 a.m.
New subject: Triple Minor Progression
Thanks to Chris for finding the link. (I eventually found my note about
it in the archive, where I acknowledge that the instructions as given
are unworkable and come up with various suggestions, including the
Physical-Snob-esque half-poussette half-poussette double progression,
but also some other whacky ideas.
Looking back through I see Michael Barraclough made a straightforward
reconstruction (with your same suggestion about half-poussette at top,
half-poussette at bottom), which is double progression, assumed it was
double progression every time rather than alternating, and suggested
that for a simultaneous start this would work if you took hands eight to
start with. (Thus, the association in my mind with neutral couples - if
it is double progression simultaneous start triple minor, neutral
couples can make it work.)
1 2 3 4 [N] 5 6 7 8 [N] 9 10 11 12 [N]
After one round
2,3 [out] 1, 4, 6, 7 [N], 5 8, 10, 11 [N], 9, 12 [and 9 needs to go to
the bottom
After two rounds
2,3, 4, 6 [N], 1, 7, 8, 10 [N], 5, 11, 12, 9 [N]
After three rounds
3, 4 [out], 2, 6, 7, 8[N], 1, 10, 11, 12 [N], 5, 9 {and 5 needs to go
to the bottom)
Double progression triple minor simultaneous start works if you're
willing to have 1/4 of the couples not actually in the dance figure.
It was Michael's suggestion that made me work through the neutral couple
stuff and is why I associate understanding neutral couples with this
dance, not because of anything Hardy says. Ah, the mists of memory.
-- Alan
On 11/30/15 1:10 AM, Colin Hume colin(a)colinhume.com [trad-dance-callers]
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 21:58:44 +0000 (UTC), Chris J
Brady
chrisjbrady(a)yahoo.com [trad-dance-callers] wrote:
Google is your friend...?
http://www.folk-network.com/miscellany/hardy.html
If you're talking about the
notation of the College Hornpipe at the
bottom of the page, I don't think it makes sense. The final move -
"The three couples whole pousette" - I take to mean a half poussette
at the top (to 2-1-3) and then a half poussette at the bottom (to
2-3-1). He says this leaves the second couple at the top, and the next
paragraph starts: "The original top couple being now in the third
place..."
That's a double progression, which in my opinion cannot work in a
triple minor. But notice that in his description of the second turn
of the dance he says: "Tune ends, the original top couple being in the
original fourth couple's place". That is (somehow) a single
progression, and I agree that in this case the new top couple can
start the dance with the two couples below them. But I don't believe
there was ever a traditional dance which alternated between double and
triple progression. They didn't have a caller to remind them which
turn was which, and there would have been complete chaos!
Colin Hume
Email colin(a)colinhume.com Web site http://colinhume.com
------------------------------------
Posted by: Colin Hume <colin(a)colinhume.com>
------------------------------------
The Traditional Dance Callers List: Subscribe by sending a blank e-mail message (no
subject, no message) to: trad-dance-callers-subscribe(a)yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
10:30 a.m.
New subject: Triple Minor Progression
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 01:53:02 -0800, Alan Winston
winston(a)slac.stanford.edu [trad-dance-callers] wrote:
Thus, the association in my mind with neutral couples
- if it is
double progression simultaneous start triple minor, neutral couples
can make it work.
And of course a simultaneous start (and a simultaneous finish) is
simply the mid-section of the way it would have been danced then -
these days we cut out the gradual build-up to the point where
everyone is dancing and cut out the fade-out ending which finished
with just the bottom three couples dancing. So it would have also
worked with a staggered start.
Colin Hume
10:37 a.m.
New subject: Triple Minor Progression
On 11/30/15 2:30 AM, Colin Hume colin(a)colinhume.com [trad-dance-callers]
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 01:53:02 -0800, Alan Winston
winston(a)slac.stanford.edu [trad-dance-callers] wrote:
Quite right, although you wouldn't have any reason to take hands eight
to start. Instead, everyone below the top six just does what the
original 1s need them to do when the 1s get to them (which may be
nothing) and then carry on making that same judgment for each pair of 1s
as they get to them. With a staggered start, all you have to do is have
it be okay to be neutral and not think something's wrong if you get left
out of the figure.
-- Alan
Thus, the association in my mind with neutral
couples - if it is
double progression simultaneous start triple minor, neutral couples
can make it work.
And of course a simultaneous start (and a simultaneous finish)
is
simply the mid-section of the way it would have been danced then -
these days we cut out the gradual build-up to the point where
everyone is dancing and cut out the fade-out ending which finished
with just the bottom three couples dancing. So it would have also
worked with a staggered start.
Colin Hume
3070
days inactive
3071
days old
trad-callers@lists.sharedweight.net
4 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
Alan Winston -
Chris J Brady -
Colin Hume