17 Jul
2023
17 Jul
'23
3:19 a.m.
I am in Lawrence Kansas. Since Covid we have consistently had a larger
number of new dancers than experienced dancers at each dance. This evening
we had a very well attended dance with approx 70 people. I would estimate
that at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers. We are also in the
process of grooming new callers and had a callers workshop in March so we
are trying to integrate those folks in and get them more experience. I've
seen on other posts that a dance can easily absorb about 25% beginners, but
we have that formula pretty much flipped. We dance monthly which is a
hindrance. Experienced dancers are fatigued of not getting to do more
complicated dances. This has been happening for a long time and we need to
make some changes so that we have a larger percentage of experienced
dancers. Suggestions?
17 Jul
17 Jul
5:45 a.m.
Following this thread.
I'm in San Luis Obispo; similar situation. We've been thinking about this a
lot lately, and I think we're starting to see some good improvement.
It also sounds like at your dance, you might be having undercurrents of
divisions between newer and returning dancers. This might be what's giving
you trouble? The fact is that beginners learn best when they dance with as
many different dancers as possible, so your goal is to make it so
everyone *wants
to* dance with everyone else.
Both new dancers and returning dancers need to be motivated in different
ways. New dancers should know that they'll learn the quickest and have the
easiest time when dancing with an experienced dancer. Returning dancers
should be reminded that while it's less exciting to dance with new dancers,
the delayed reward of well-attended, intricate, energetic dances will be
worth it. The juice is worth the squeeze!
For organizers, the truth is that we can't do very much during a dance. The
caller has the most direct impact on whether people like dancing and want
to keep coming back. So as an organizer, our best things we can do involve
chatting closely with the caller about the crowd we expect and the outcomes
we're hoping for. It helps tremendously when the caller is close to the
community and knows how they dance, so mentoring new callers from within
your community sounds like it will help you with your goal. We are also
mentoring two new callers (editor's note: I'm one of them), and because new
callers need practice more than once a month, we've rustled up a few of our
more experienced dancers and met up outside of our monthly dance to
practice walkthroughs, demos, live calling, lessons, etc.
In addition, here are some of the actionable things that we have tried. Not
necessarily a magic bullet; try what you like and see what sticks.
- Two smaller breaks instead of a big one in the middle. New dancers need
more breaks. We did this for only 3-4 dances, and we've since gone back to
one break, but it seemed to be what people wanted during that time.
- Identifying some particularly *friendly, approachable* returners who are
willing to be volunteered into dancing with newbies. Let beginners know
that these people are ultra-available to dance with. ("*Maria* - you should
dance with *Claude* for this dance, they're great at teaching beginners!").
Maybe make some pins or ribbons for them to wear.
- Encourage callers to really put an emphasis on pairing new dancers with
returning dancers - both explicitly and implicitly. If there's a group of
new dancers who are only dancing with each other or throwing off a line,
let the caller know that it's okay to break them up into new lines and
encourage them to find new partners. And ask the caller to reiterate the
statements above to motivate mingling.
- Ask callers to focus on building up your group's technical skills by
calling multiple dances with the same intermediate/advanced figure.
Recently, we called three dances with hey figures just within the second
half. We were able to build up to a full hey with a ricochet, our beginners
mastered it well, and our returning dancers could satisfy their itch for
complexity and see that the whole group is improving. This one needs a
delicate touch, because focusing on one figure too much can become boring.
But I can easily imagine beginners building up to more intricate moves -
allemande & orbit, tricky wavy line moves, left diagonal chains, etc, if
the dance program is carefully thought out to build up the basics first.
- Encourage your returning dancers to help out in the ways listed above -
ask them to become the approachable helpers and make pins for them. Ask
them to show up to help callers practice and get pizza for them.
John L
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 8:22 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am in Lawrence Kansas. Since Covid we have
consistently had a larger
number of new dancers than experienced dancers at each dance. This evening
we had a very well attended dance with approx 70 people. I would estimate
that at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers. We are also in the
process of grooming new callers and had a callers workshop in March so we
are trying to integrate those folks in and get them more experience. I've
seen on other posts that a dance can easily absorb about 25% beginners, but
we have that formula pretty much flipped. We dance monthly which is a
hindrance. Experienced dancers are fatigued of not getting to do more
complicated dances. This has been happening for a long time and we need to
make some changes so that we have a larger percentage of experienced
dancers. Suggestions?
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
1:45 p.m.
"at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers"
Has this been a mostly overlapping group of new dancers coming back each
month, or are they mostly people who come once or twice?
Jeff
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 1:46 AM John Little via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Following this thread.
I'm in San Luis Obispo; similar situation. We've been thinking about this
a lot lately, and I think we're starting to see some good improvement.
It also sounds like at your dance, you might be having undercurrents of
divisions between newer and returning dancers. This might be what's giving
you trouble? The fact is that beginners learn best when they dance with as
many different dancers as possible, so your goal is to make it so everyone *wants
to* dance with everyone else.
Both new dancers and returning dancers need to be motivated in different
ways. New dancers should know that they'll learn the quickest and have the
easiest time when dancing with an experienced dancer. Returning dancers
should be reminded that while it's less exciting to dance with new dancers,
the delayed reward of well-attended, intricate, energetic dances will be
worth it. The juice is worth the squeeze!
For organizers, the truth is that we can't do very much during a dance.
The caller has the most direct impact on whether people like dancing and
want to keep coming back. So as an organizer, our best things we can do
involve chatting closely with the caller about the crowd we expect and the
outcomes we're hoping for. It helps tremendously when the caller is close
to the community and knows how they dance, so mentoring new callers from
within your community sounds like it will help you with your goal. We are
also mentoring two new callers (editor's note: I'm one of them), and
because new callers need practice more than once a month, we've rustled up
a few of our more experienced dancers and met up outside of our monthly
dance to practice walkthroughs, demos, live calling, lessons, etc.
In addition, here are some of the actionable things that we have tried.
Not necessarily a magic bullet; try what you like and see what sticks.
- Two smaller breaks instead of a big one in the middle. New dancers need
more breaks. We did this for only 3-4 dances, and we've since gone back to
one break, but it seemed to be what people wanted during that time.
- Identifying some particularly *friendly, approachable* returners who
are willing to be volunteered into dancing with newbies. Let beginners know
that these people are ultra-available to dance with. ("*Maria* - you
should dance with *Claude* for this dance, they're great at teaching
beginners!"). Maybe make some pins or ribbons for them to wear.
- Encourage callers to really put an emphasis on pairing new dancers with
returning dancers - both explicitly and implicitly. If there's a group of
new dancers who are only dancing with each other or throwing off a line,
let the caller know that it's okay to break them up into new lines and
encourage them to find new partners. And ask the caller to reiterate the
statements above to motivate mingling.
- Ask callers to focus on building up your group's technical skills by
calling multiple dances with the same intermediate/advanced figure.
Recently, we called three dances with hey figures just within the second
half. We were able to build up to a full hey with a ricochet, our beginners
mastered it well, and our returning dancers could satisfy their itch for
complexity and see that the whole group is improving. This one needs a
delicate touch, because focusing on one figure too much can become boring.
But I can easily imagine beginners building up to more intricate moves -
allemande & orbit, tricky wavy line moves, left diagonal chains, etc, if
the dance program is carefully thought out to build up the basics first.
- Encourage your returning dancers to help out in the ways listed above -
ask them to become the approachable helpers and make pins for them. Ask
them to show up to help callers practice and get pizza for them.
John L
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 8:22 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am in Lawrence Kansas. Since Covid we have
consistently had a larger
number of new dancers than experienced dancers at each dance. This evening
we had a very well attended dance with approx 70 people. I would estimate
that at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers. We are also in the
process of grooming new callers and had a callers workshop in March so we
are trying to integrate those folks in and get them more experience. I've
seen on other posts that a dance can easily absorb about 25% beginners, but
we have that formula pretty much flipped. We dance monthly which is a
hindrance. Experienced dancers are fatigued of not getting to do more
complicated dances. This has been happening for a long time and we need to
make some changes so that we have a larger percentage of experienced
dancers. Suggestions?
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
3:02 p.m.
I haven't attended for the past 2 months so I'm not certain, but it seems a
lot of brand new folks at each dance.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 8:45 AM Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu>
wrote:
"at least 60-70% were inexperienced
dancers"
Has this been a mostly overlapping group of new dancers coming back each
month, or are they mostly people who come once or twice?
Jeff
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 1:46 AM John Little via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Following this thread.
I'm in San Luis Obispo; similar situation. We've been thinking about this
a lot lately, and I think we're starting to see some good improvement.
It also sounds like at your dance, you might be having undercurrents of
divisions between newer and returning dancers. This might be what's giving
you trouble? The fact is that beginners learn best when they dance with as
many different dancers as possible, so your goal is to make it so everyone *wants
to* dance with everyone else.
Both new dancers and returning dancers need to be motivated in different
ways. New dancers should know that they'll learn the quickest and have the
easiest time when dancing with an experienced dancer. Returning dancers
should be reminded that while it's less exciting to dance with new dancers,
the delayed reward of well-attended, intricate, energetic dances will be
worth it. The juice is worth the squeeze!
For organizers, the truth is that we can't do very much during a dance.
The caller has the most direct impact on whether people like dancing and
want to keep coming back. So as an organizer, our best things we can do
involve chatting closely with the caller about the crowd we expect and the
outcomes we're hoping for. It helps tremendously when the caller is close
to the community and knows how they dance, so mentoring new callers from
within your community sounds like it will help you with your goal. We are
also mentoring two new callers (editor's note: I'm one of them), and
because new callers need practice more than once a month, we've rustled up
a few of our more experienced dancers and met up outside of our monthly
dance to practice walkthroughs, demos, live calling, lessons, etc.
In addition, here are some of the actionable things that we have tried.
Not necessarily a magic bullet; try what you like and see what sticks.
- Two smaller breaks instead of a big one in the middle. New dancers need
more breaks. We did this for only 3-4 dances, and we've since gone back to
one break, but it seemed to be what people wanted during that time.
- Identifying some particularly *friendly, approachable* returners who
are willing to be volunteered into dancing with newbies. Let beginners know
that these people are ultra-available to dance with. ("*Maria* - you
should dance with *Claude* for this dance, they're great at teaching
beginners!"). Maybe make some pins or ribbons for them to wear.
- Encourage callers to really put an emphasis on pairing new dancers with
returning dancers - both explicitly and implicitly. If there's a group of
new dancers who are only dancing with each other or throwing off a line,
let the caller know that it's okay to break them up into new lines and
encourage them to find new partners. And ask the caller to reiterate the
statements above to motivate mingling.
- Ask callers to focus on building up your group's technical skills by
calling multiple dances with the same intermediate/advanced figure.
Recently, we called three dances with hey figures just within the second
half. We were able to build up to a full hey with a ricochet, our beginners
mastered it well, and our returning dancers could satisfy their itch for
complexity and see that the whole group is improving. This one needs a
delicate touch, because focusing on one figure too much can become boring.
But I can easily imagine beginners building up to more intricate moves -
allemande & orbit, tricky wavy line moves, left diagonal chains, etc, if
the dance program is carefully thought out to build up the basics first.
- Encourage your returning dancers to help out in the ways listed above -
ask them to become the approachable helpers and make pins for them. Ask
them to show up to help callers practice and get pizza for them.
John L
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 8:22 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am in Lawrence Kansas. Since Covid we have
consistently had a larger
number of new dancers than experienced dancers at each dance. This evening
we had a very well attended dance with approx 70 people. I would estimate
that at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers. We are also in the
process of grooming new callers and had a callers workshop in March so we
are trying to integrate those folks in and get them more experience. I've
seen on other posts that a dance can easily absorb about 25% beginners, but
we have that formula pretty much flipped. We dance monthly which is a
hindrance. Experienced dancers are fatigued of not getting to do more
complicated dances. This has been happening for a long time and we need to
make some changes so that we have a larger percentage of experienced
dancers. Suggestions?
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
7:09 p.m.
Argh - recently changed my default to reply directly rather than reply
all... so my earlier reply didn't go to the list...
===========================
Despite the potential frustration for your more experienced dancers, this
sounds like a terrific opportunity! Someone somewhere must be doing a great
job getting the word out about your events.
Has anyone attempted a sensing conversation with the newcomers? For my
series, this is something I try to do (though it might have to be just
sampling, given the numbers you report). I introduce myself as one of the
organizers, welcome them ("nice to see you, thanks for coming"), and ask
how they heard about our dance. As I can, I circle back to check in with
them - in some cases this might be upon observing them getting ready to
leave (early?), at the break, or later in the evening. "How has your
time been? Do you have any questions or concerns? We'll look forward to
having you back, do you think you might return?", etc. or, for an early
exit, "I notice you're leaving - is there something we should know or need
to address?"
What you hear back may surprise you, and help to guide you in ways to grow
your experienced dancer base and dance health overall.
Good luck!
ps: In my experience, a large proportion of the new-that-evening dancers
will leave upon the break. You could work with your community to openly
"ramp up" the dance challenge a notch after the break to keep your regulars
more happy. It's a fine line between that and scaring off the newcomers who
persist, of course.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 11:03 AM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I haven't attended for the past 2 months so
I'm not certain, but it seems
a lot of brand new folks at each dance.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 8:45 AM Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu>
wrote:
"at least 60-70% were inexperienced
dancers"
Has this been a mostly overlapping group of new dancers coming back each
month, or are they mostly people who come once or twice?
Jeff
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 1:46 AM John Little via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Organizers mailing list --
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Following this thread.
I'm in San Luis Obispo; similar situation. We've been thinking about
this a lot lately, and I think we're starting to see some good improvement.
It also sounds like at your dance, you might be having undercurrents of
divisions between newer and returning dancers. This might be what's giving
you trouble? The fact is that beginners learn best when they dance with as
many different dancers as possible, so your goal is to make it so everyone *wants
to* dance with everyone else.
Both new dancers and returning dancers need to be motivated in different
ways. New dancers should know that they'll learn the quickest and have the
easiest time when dancing with an experienced dancer. Returning dancers
should be reminded that while it's less exciting to dance with new dancers,
the delayed reward of well-attended, intricate, energetic dances will be
worth it. The juice is worth the squeeze!
For organizers, the truth is that we can't do very much during a dance.
The caller has the most direct impact on whether people like dancing and
want to keep coming back. So as an organizer, our best things we can do
involve chatting closely with the caller about the crowd we expect and the
outcomes we're hoping for. It helps tremendously when the caller is close
to the community and knows how they dance, so mentoring new callers from
within your community sounds like it will help you with your goal. We are
also mentoring two new callers (editor's note: I'm one of them), and
because new callers need practice more than once a month, we've rustled up
a few of our more experienced dancers and met up outside of our monthly
dance to practice walkthroughs, demos, live calling, lessons, etc.
In addition, here are some of the actionable things that we have tried.
Not necessarily a magic bullet; try what you like and see what sticks.
- Two smaller breaks instead of a big one in the middle. New dancers
need more breaks. We did this for only 3-4 dances, and we've since gone
back to one break, but it seemed to be what people wanted during that time.
- Identifying some particularly *friendly, approachable* returners who
are willing to be volunteered into dancing with newbies. Let beginners know
that these people are ultra-available to dance with. ("*Maria* - you
should dance with *Claude* for this dance, they're great at teaching
beginners!"). Maybe make some pins or ribbons for them to wear.
- Encourage callers to really put an emphasis on pairing new dancers
with returning dancers - both explicitly and implicitly. If there's a group
of new dancers who are only dancing with each other or throwing off a line,
let the caller know that it's okay to break them up into new lines and
encourage them to find new partners. And ask the caller to reiterate the
statements above to motivate mingling.
- Ask callers to focus on building up your group's technical skills by
calling multiple dances with the same intermediate/advanced figure.
Recently, we called three dances with hey figures just within the second
half. We were able to build up to a full hey with a ricochet, our beginners
mastered it well, and our returning dancers could satisfy their itch for
complexity and see that the whole group is improving. This one needs a
delicate touch, because focusing on one figure too much can become boring.
But I can easily imagine beginners building up to more intricate moves -
allemande & orbit, tricky wavy line moves, left diagonal chains, etc, if
the dance program is carefully thought out to build up the basics first.
- Encourage your returning dancers to help out in the ways listed above
- ask them to become the approachable helpers and make pins for them. Ask
them to show up to help callers practice and get pizza for them.
John L
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 8:22 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________ I am in Lawrence Kansas. Since Covid we have
consistently had a larger
number of new dancers than experienced dancers at each dance. This evening
we had a very well attended dance with approx 70 people. I would estimate
that at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers. We are also in the
process of grooming new callers and had a callers workshop in March so we
are trying to integrate those folks in and get them more experience. I've
seen on other posts that a dance can easily absorb about 25% beginners, but
we have that formula pretty much flipped. We dance monthly which is a
hindrance. Experienced dancers are fatigued of not getting to do more
complicated dances. This has been happening for a long time and we need to
make some changes so that we have a larger percentage of experienced
dancers. Suggestions?
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
8:43 p.m.
Wow, what are you doing to advertise and get so many new people!
I usually try to dance with beginners and then when it's over I introduce my beginner
partner to another experienced dancer saying "Have you met so-and-so, it's their
first dance!" 9 times out of 10 the other experienced dancer invites the beginner to
dance the next one. Then I look to the sides of the hall for people who sat the last one
out.
regards,
Bob Fabinski
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 4:28 PM, Don Veino via
Organizers<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
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7:05 p.m.
First off, 60 new people is a good problem! No matter how advanced anyone
is, if we don't make it welcoming for new people we won't have a dance
anymore.
There's a lot to be said about being a welcoming group that people would
like to coming back to. Organizers and dance angels can invite and suggest
that dancing with experienced dancers will help them learn more quickly.
The organizer who does announcements can mention it. But the most of the
dance management falls on the caller and their programming on-the-fly.
I'm not sure how it is where you are, but in Southeastern New England the
newbies and beginners wear themselves out quickly with skipping, bouncing,
and laughing, so not many last until after the break. Callers can pull out
more challenging dances after the break. They also need to accommodate for
other factors, like the heat, masking and the age/fitness level of dancers.
When encouraging people to couple with someone else, please be careful not
to go past suggesting and inviting to pushing or demanding. It can backfire
on you if you push people to do something they don't feel comfortable
doing. Even when people do take the advice, they oftentimes end up pairing
off again with their friends afterwards. Beyond the caller encouraging
them, and dancers suggesting and inviting, that's as far as you can
comfortably go.
I have myself been told to dance with a particular new person by someone
who has good intentions to include people, but also has a tendency to
micromanage. My response is that I'm able to make my own decisions about
when I dance and who I chose to dance with.
Re: New Callers-
I'd prefer to call it "home growing" rather than "grooming", but
if you've
got a group you're working with, it would be worth getting regular
consultation with experienced callers on things like dance management. CDSS
is a good source for materials also.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 1:46 AM John Little via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Following this thread.
I'm in San Luis Obispo; similar situation. We've been thinking about this
a lot lately, and I think we're starting to see some good improvement.
It also sounds like at your dance, you might be having undercurrents of
divisions between newer and returning dancers. This might be what's giving
you trouble? The fact is that beginners learn best when they dance with as
many different dancers as possible, so your goal is to make it so everyone *wants
to* dance with everyone else.
Both new dancers and returning dancers need to be motivated in different
ways. New dancers should know that they'll learn the quickest and have the
easiest time when dancing with an experienced dancer. Returning dancers
should be reminded that while it's less exciting to dance with new dancers,
the delayed reward of well-attended, intricate, energetic dances will be
worth it. The juice is worth the squeeze!
For organizers, the truth is that we can't do very much during a dance.
The caller has the most direct impact on whether people like dancing and
want to keep coming back. So as an organizer, our best things we can do
involve chatting closely with the caller about the crowd we expect and the
outcomes we're hoping for. It helps tremendously when the caller is close
to the community and knows how they dance, so mentoring new callers from
within your community sounds like it will help you with your goal. We are
also mentoring two new callers (editor's note: I'm one of them), and
because new callers need practice more than once a month, we've rustled up
a few of our more experienced dancers and met up outside of our monthly
dance to practice walkthroughs, demos, live calling, lessons, etc.
In addition, here are some of the actionable things that we have tried.
Not necessarily a magic bullet; try what you like and see what sticks.
- Two smaller breaks instead of a big one in the middle. New dancers need
more breaks. We did this for only 3-4 dances, and we've since gone back to
one break, but it seemed to be what people wanted during that time.
- Identifying some particularly *friendly, approachable* returners who
are willing to be volunteered into dancing with newbies. Let beginners know
that these people are ultra-available to dance with. ("*Maria* - you
should dance with *Claude* for this dance, they're great at teaching
beginners!"). Maybe make some pins or ribbons for them to wear.
- Encourage callers to really put an emphasis on pairing new dancers with
returning dancers - both explicitly and implicitly. If there's a group of
new dancers who are only dancing with each other or throwing off a line,
let the caller know that it's okay to break them up into new lines and
encourage them to find new partners. And ask the caller to reiterate the
statements above to motivate mingling.
- Ask callers to focus on building up your group's technical skills by
calling multiple dances with the same intermediate/advanced figure.
Recently, we called three dances with hey figures just within the second
half. We were able to build up to a full hey with a ricochet, our beginners
mastered it well, and our returning dancers could satisfy their itch for
complexity and see that the whole group is improving. This one needs a
delicate touch, because focusing on one figure too much can become boring.
But I can easily imagine beginners building up to more intricate moves -
allemande & orbit, tricky wavy line moves, left diagonal chains, etc, if
the dance program is carefully thought out to build up the basics first.
- Encourage your returning dancers to help out in the ways listed above -
ask them to become the approachable helpers and make pins for them. Ask
them to show up to help callers practice and get pizza for them.
John L
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 8:22 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am in Lawrence Kansas. Since Covid we have
consistently had a larger
number of new dancers than experienced dancers at each dance. This evening
we had a very well attended dance with approx 70 people. I would estimate
that at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers. We are also in the
process of grooming new callers and had a callers workshop in March so we
are trying to integrate those folks in and get them more experience. I've
seen on other posts that a dance can easily absorb about 25% beginners, but
we have that formula pretty much flipped. We dance monthly which is a
hindrance. Experienced dancers are fatigued of not getting to do more
complicated dances. This has been happening for a long time and we need to
make some changes so that we have a larger percentage of experienced
dancers. Suggestions?
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
7:34 p.m.
Hi Sandy,
I think a lot of dances are facing this or similar situations. There isn’t
a silver bullet but there a lots of things you can try. What will work will
depend on your community - and not on mine or anyone else’s on this list.
Do what works, try stuff, and let us know how it goes, the good and the
bad. I’m going to mix in some general community-building thoughts as well
as address your specific concern about bringing back your core, in part
because many may not be there to be brought back.
First, two observations:
Lots of people trimmed down their commitments in the pandemic and are
enjoying a bit more free time. Many of those are not coming back, and
neither are some elders who have slowed down, those who moved away, etc.
So, don’t equate success with bringing them all back. Build a new core of
prior and newer dancers.
Also, a trend that definitely accelerated in the pandemic is a decrease in
personal commitment to activity groups, even among older folks but
especially among younger. What they are loyal to is their friend group or
partner. More people pick and choose what they’ll do this weekend on the
spur of the moment with their friends or partner. This is a real bummer
both because you need a bigger community to get a critical mass and because
skill advances quickest with frequent practice, which people don’t get if
they only come occasionally.
So, some general things to try:
A good way to take advantage of the latter trend is to focus as much on
making the dance a fun social space where people come to be with friends
they only meet dancing, as on the dancing itself.
Make the dancing itself the most fun it can be. With lots of beginners,
simple dances danced at tempo are more fun than complex dances taught
forever and then danced slowly, even for experienced dancers. Make sure
your callers know the kind of crowd they’ll get and that they should
prepare simple but fun dances. Keep a reasonable tempo, so it’s dancing and
not just walking. Several recent threads here listed simple-but-fun dances.
Make it a party all the time and give it a theme some of the time. People
love costumes (optional, of course), and there may be folks who are into
cosplay, decorating, fancier snack foods, etc. who can help. Advertise any
themed event, of course! Get on people’s calendars. Be on all the socials,
not just your generation’s. Kids have not done email or Facebook for well
over a decade.
Specific to your question of bringing back the core:
Reach out to your former core dancers and ask them in a positive way what
would get them to come out and dance. You’ll get some information, which
you can consider, but you’ll also be sending the message that they’re
missed and you want them back. Personal contact is better than an email
blast. If there’s a very large number, you could consider holding a private
event on a different night as a one-off welcome-back event.
Pony up for a high-end band and caller and use that event as a
bring-them-back occasion. Reach out to the former core and personally
invite them.
Make the last 2-4 dances each evening a little more advanced. Make it clear
in the ads, at the start of the workshop, and early in the evening that the
last hour or so is more advanced and may not be accessible to first-timers.
You can say that the workshop offsets the advanced portion, if people ask.
Then, do some moderately more-complex stuff in that time. Don’t expect
festival-level dancing. For my dance, I might try a hey. If it works with
mildly more complex dances, you can notch it up a bit more the next dance,
and adjust from there. The key thing is to monitor the newbies to see if
they keep coming back and join the advanced dancing after a few weeks. If
not, dial back.
Hold intermediate workshops before the newbie lesson. Advertise this as a
quick way to get good enough to enjoy dancing all night.
Finally, the two elephants: covid and gender terms. These have been hashed
to death, so let’s not do that again. Just be in touch with your
community’s wishes, make your decisions, and be clear about them. Depending
on the community, you may lose some dancers and take heat for it no matter
what you do. Predictability is key, here, as is staying in touch with the
community.
—jh—
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 9:21 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am in Lawrence Kansas. Since Covid we have
consistently had a larger
number of new dancers than experienced dancers at each dance. This evening
we had a very well attended dance with approx 70 people. I would estimate
that at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers. We are also in the
process of grooming new callers and had a callers workshop in March so we
are trying to integrate those folks in and get them more experience. I've
seen on other posts that a dance can easily absorb about 25% beginners, but
we have that formula pretty much flipped. We dance monthly which is a
hindrance. Experienced dancers are fatigued of not getting to do more
complicated dances. This has been happening for a long time and we need to
make some changes so that we have a larger percentage of experienced
dancers. Suggestions?
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
8:05 p.m.
I agree with a lot of the stuff that has already been said. This sounds like a pretty
challenging situation, but, as others have said, also an opportunity to grow those many
beginners into experienced members of your community.
A lot of the advice that’s been given is for callers, but, as an organizer, you can put
that guidance into the information you send to callers ahead of time. If they need to
stick to simple dances, tell them so. If they need to include a few complex dances, but
later in the evening, tell them that too. At BIDA our guide encourages callers to program
a mixer early in the evening, which I personally think goes a long way toward making
beginners comfortable dancing with people other than the person they came with, which in
turn enables more complex dances. Though with over 50% newcomers, the impact of that may
be limited to start with. (Maybe 50% of our callers take this advice.)
I’d also do what you can to encourage beginners to come back—Don’s suggestions on this
front are good. Those beginners will become experienced dancers before long if you can get
them to stick around.
You could also hold special events as a way to draw out experienced dancers who are not
excited at the moment about coming to a regular dance, but might make an effort for
something more occasional. An couple hours of advanced dancing in the afternoon before an
evening dance can satisfy the need for more complex dances and hopefully some of those
experienced dancers will stick around for the evening dance as long as they’re out. If you
can pair this with a much beloved band and caller, so much the better.
Best of luck!
Harris
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023, at 3:34 PM, Joe Harrington via Organizers wrote:
Hi Sandy,
I think a lot of dances are facing this or similar situations. There isn’t a silver
bullet but there a lots of things you can try. What will work will depend on your
community - and not on mine or anyone else’s on this list. Do what works, try stuff, and
let us know how it goes, the good and the bad. I’m going to mix in some general
community-building thoughts as well as address your specific concern about bringing back
your core, in part because many may not be there to be brought back.
First, two observations:
Lots of people trimmed down their commitments in the pandemic and are enjoying a bit more
free time. Many of those are not coming back, and neither are some elders who have slowed
down, those who moved away, etc. So, don’t equate success with bringing them all back.
Build a new core of prior and newer dancers.
Also, a trend that definitely accelerated in the pandemic is a decrease in personal
commitment to activity groups, even among older folks but especially among younger. What
they are loyal to is their friend group or partner. More people pick and choose what
they’ll do this weekend on the spur of the moment with their friends or partner. This is a
real bummer both because you need a bigger community to get a critical mass and because
skill advances quickest with frequent practice, which people don’t get if they only come
occasionally.
So, some general things to try:
A good way to take advantage of the latter trend is to focus as much on making the dance
a fun social space where people come to be with friends they only meet dancing, as on the
dancing itself.
Make the dancing itself the most fun it can be. With lots of beginners, simple dances
danced at tempo are more fun than complex dances taught forever and then danced slowly,
even for experienced dancers. Make sure your callers know the kind of crowd they’ll get
and that they should prepare simple but fun dances. Keep a reasonable tempo, so it’s
dancing and not just walking. Several recent threads here listed simple-but-fun dances.
Make it a party all the time and give it a theme some of the time. People love costumes
(optional, of course), and there may be folks who are into cosplay, decorating, fancier
snack foods, etc. who can help. Advertise any themed event, of course! Get on people’s
calendars. Be on all the socials, not just your generation’s. Kids have not done email or
Facebook for well over a decade.
Specific to your question of bringing back the core:
Reach out to your former core dancers and ask them in a positive way what would get them
to come out and dance. You’ll get some information, which you can consider, but you’ll
also be sending the message that they’re missed and you want them back. Personal contact
is better than an email blast. If there’s a very large number, you could consider holding
a private event on a different night as a one-off welcome-back event.
Pony up for a high-end band and caller and use that event as a bring-them-back occasion.
Reach out to the former core and personally invite them.
Make the last 2-4 dances each evening a little more advanced. Make it clear in the ads,
at the start of the workshop, and early in the evening that the last hour or so is more
advanced and may not be accessible to first-timers. You can say that the workshop offsets
the advanced portion, if people ask. Then, do some moderately more-complex stuff in that
time. Don’t expect festival-level dancing. For my dance, I might try a hey. If it works
with mildly more complex dances, you can notch it up a bit more the next dance, and adjust
from there. The key thing is to monitor the newbies to see if they keep coming back and
join the advanced dancing after a few weeks. If not, dial back.
Hold intermediate workshops before the newbie lesson. Advertise this as a quick way to
get good enough to enjoy dancing all night.
Finally, the two elephants: covid and gender terms. These have been hashed to death, so
let’s not do that again. Just be in touch with your community’s wishes, make your
decisions, and be clear about them. Depending on the community, you may lose some dancers
and take heat for it no matter what you do. Predictability is key, here, as is staying in
touch with the community.
—jh—
On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 9:21 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am in Lawrence Kansas. Since Covid we have
consistently had a larger number of new dancers than experienced dancers at each dance.
This evening we had a very well attended dance with approx 70 people. I would estimate
that at least 60-70% were inexperienced dancers. We are also in the process of grooming
new callers and had a callers workshop in March so we are trying to integrate those folks
in and get them more experience. I've seen on other posts that a dance can easily
absorb about 25% beginners, but we have that formula pretty much flipped. We dance
monthly which is a hindrance. Experienced dancers are fatigued of not getting to do more
complicated dances. This has been happening for a long time and we need to make some
changes so that we have a larger percentage of experienced dancers. Suggestions?
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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8:59 p.m.
Seconding a lot of what's been said.
My wife, Jennifer Horrocks, and I hosted 2 regional organizers retreats
back in '17 & '18 and have our next this upcoming weekend. This came up
in the two pre-covid retreats with some form of dance angels the most
common mechanism used to integrate the new dancers. (informal
ambassadors or formal special name tags varied). I agree that 60% new
dancers is difficult; that's a higher % of beginners than what most
dances deal with.
My reason to chime in is to flag the *variation in demographics* for
both your experienced and inexperienced dancers affects the dance.
This upcoming Saturday ContraForce will play at Sautee's dance in N
Georgia (in the middle of nowhere) in a very old gym. Many of our
retreat folks will take that evening off to attend. It is a dance at
which it's not uncommon for 20+% to be new dancers. The most successful
callers (in my opinion) have, after the lesson, started off with easy
but not trivial contras and steadily built up from there which takes
advantage of the experienced dancers knowledge and doesn't bore the
experienced dancers to death.. 20% is not 60%. Mentioning because there
are always beginners at that dance and not all callers handle them well.
I believe it's important to know the age and hence physical and mental
capability of the new dancers. Sautee's dance tends to be family
oriented so the new (& experienced) dancers range in age from teens to
seniors. I went to a ContraForce dance at Clemson University several
years ago. The % of new dancers was around your 60%, but the new dancers
were entirely college students. The caller was a student and not a solid
caller. The new dancers took incredibly quickly to the dance. *60%
beginners? No problem!**
*I was at a River Falls Lodge pre-covid dance packed with so many lines
of dancers that it was easy to get confused with what's up and down and
sideways. Dancers were mostly students (under 25?) and, I'd guess, 40%
beginners. Caller came late so no beginners' lesson. The caller just
started everyone off with a simple contra and built up from there. No
muss. No fuss. Worked quite well. I believe the caller's calmness and
just doing it worked ... never any question that it wouldn't.
**
Another data point is Lake Eden Arts Festival which, pre-covid, had
5,000 people attending. Their gym, "Brookside", had contra dances with
(at peak) some 400 dancers. Many (??%) dancers are drunk/high beginners
who drop in since they're already there enjoying the weekend. They have
fun for awhile then leave. Don't know what to say about it. It is what
it is.
Another data point that I've heard about is a tourist oriented Virginia
city in which the contra dance location was, for awhile, downtown in the
tourist district. They struggled with older non-contra tourists
overwhelming their small dance. I believe their solution was to move the
dance out of the tourist center.
Wishing everyone well as we keep the dance going,
-Heitzso
9:09 p.m.
A thought on the topic of dance angels...
Would it be helpful to try matching age groups of the beginners and angels?
Having a shared social reference frame (for lack of a better phrase) could
help incorporate those dancers more comfortably? I mention this as we had a
slug of incoming students from an area private school arrive at our dance
as newcomers and our friendly and helpful older crew did the community
thing - which was great but slightly put them off. The lack of folks in
their age group came up in my later conversation with them - they had a
great time but were looking to mix more with folks of their own age. Of
course that's a chicken/egg thing (I encouraged them to bring more of their
friends next time), but...
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 5:00 PM Heitzso via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Seconding a lot of what's been said.
My wife, Jennifer Horrocks, and I hosted 2 regional organizers retreats
back in '17 & '18 and have our next this upcoming weekend. This came up in
the two pre-covid retreats with some form of dance angels the most common
mechanism used to integrate the new dancers. (informal ambassadors or
formal special name tags varied). I agree that 60% new dancers is
difficult; that's a higher % of beginners than what most dances deal with.
My reason to chime in is to flag the *variation in demographics* for both
your experienced and inexperienced dancers affects the dance.
This upcoming Saturday ContraForce will play at Sautee's dance in N
Georgia (in the middle of nowhere) in a very old gym. Many of our retreat
folks will take that evening off to attend. It is a dance at which it's not
uncommon for 20+% to be new dancers. The most successful callers (in my
opinion) have, after the lesson, started off with easy but not trivial
contras and steadily built up from there which takes advantage of the
experienced dancers knowledge and doesn't bore the experienced dancers to
death.. 20% is not 60%. Mentioning because there are always beginners at
that dance and not all callers handle them well.
I believe it's important to know the age and hence physical and mental
capability of the new dancers. Sautee's dance tends to be family oriented
so the new (& experienced) dancers range in age from teens to seniors. I
went to a ContraForce dance at Clemson University several years ago. The %
of new dancers was around your 60%, but the new dancers were entirely
college students. The caller was a student and not a solid caller. The new
dancers took incredibly quickly to the dance. *60% beginners? No problem!*
I was at a River Falls Lodge pre-covid dance packed with so many lines of
dancers that it was easy to get confused with what's up and down and
sideways. Dancers were mostly students (under 25?) and, I'd guess, 40%
beginners. Caller came late so no beginners' lesson. The caller just
started everyone off with a simple contra and built up from there. No muss.
No fuss. Worked quite well. I believe the caller's calmness and just doing
it worked ... never any question that it wouldn't.
Another data point is Lake Eden Arts Festival which, pre-covid, had 5,000
people attending. Their gym, "Brookside", had contra dances with (at peak)
some 400 dancers. Many (??%) dancers are drunk/high beginners who drop in
since they're already there enjoying the weekend. They have fun for awhile
then leave. Don't know what to say about it. It is what it is.
Another data point that I've heard about is a tourist oriented Virginia
city in which the contra dance location was, for awhile, downtown in the
tourist district. They struggled with older non-contra tourists
overwhelming their small dance. I believe their solution was to move the
dance out of the tourist center.
Wishing everyone well as we keep the dance going,
-Heitzso
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
10:58 p.m.
The idea I have been cogitating on for a while is to somehow change
people's perception of the starting time causing a bit of a cultural
shift. Our dance lesson is at 7:00, dance at 7:30. I would really love it
if we could get the majority of folks to embrace the idea that everyone
come at 7:00. At our last dance we had about 2-3 experienced dancers
participating in the beginners lesson. That's a challenge with about 30
new students. I imagine new folks could easily feel like "a tribe apart"
with beginners at 7 and everyone else come at 7:30. If we could get the
majority of our experienced dancers to come at 7:00 and help teach the
lesson that would be so grand.
Have any of you been successful in making that shift? Changing the
attitude to.... "dance starts at 7:00 and we spend the first 30 minutes
welcoming and teaching the beginning dancers because we all know the dance
will be much more fun that way". If we could make that leap, I think
newbies would feel more welcome and likely to return. It's unrealistic to
expect everyone to show up at 7, but I am planning to reach out to several
experienced dancers to see if we can get more of them on the floor for the
lesson.
Also considering "doors open at 6:30" to give folks time to socialize
before beginning the lesson/dance at 7:00.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 4:11 PM Don Veino via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
A thought on the topic of dance angels...
Would it be helpful to try matching age groups of the beginners and
angels? Having a shared social reference frame (for lack of a better
phrase) could help incorporate those dancers more comfortably? I mention
this as we had a slug of incoming students from an area private school
arrive at our dance as newcomers and our friendly and helpful older crew
did the community thing - which was great but slightly put them off. The
lack of folks in their age group came up in my later conversation with them
- they had a great time but were looking to mix more with folks of their
own age. Of course that's a chicken/egg thing (I encouraged them to bring
more of their friends next time), but...
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 5:00 PM Heitzso via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Seconding a lot of what's been said.
My wife, Jennifer Horrocks, and I hosted 2 regional organizers retreats
back in '17 & '18 and have our next this upcoming weekend. This came up in
the two pre-covid retreats with some form of dance angels the most common
mechanism used to integrate the new dancers. (informal ambassadors or
formal special name tags varied). I agree that 60% new dancers is
difficult; that's a higher % of beginners than what most dances deal with.
My reason to chime in is to flag the *variation in demographics* for
both your experienced and inexperienced dancers affects the dance.
This upcoming Saturday ContraForce will play at Sautee's dance in N
Georgia (in the middle of nowhere) in a very old gym. Many of our retreat
folks will take that evening off to attend. It is a dance at which it's not
uncommon for 20+% to be new dancers. The most successful callers (in my
opinion) have, after the lesson, started off with easy but not trivial
contras and steadily built up from there which takes advantage of the
experienced dancers knowledge and doesn't bore the experienced dancers to
death.. 20% is not 60%. Mentioning because there are always beginners at
that dance and not all callers handle them well.
I believe it's important to know the age and hence physical and mental
capability of the new dancers. Sautee's dance tends to be family oriented
so the new (& experienced) dancers range in age from teens to seniors. I
went to a ContraForce dance at Clemson University several years ago. The %
of new dancers was around your 60%, but the new dancers were entirely
college students. The caller was a student and not a solid caller. The new
dancers took incredibly quickly to the dance. *60% beginners? No
problem!*
I was at a River Falls Lodge pre-covid dance packed with so many lines of
dancers that it was easy to get confused with what's up and down and
sideways. Dancers were mostly students (under 25?) and, I'd guess, 40%
beginners. Caller came late so no beginners' lesson. The caller just
started everyone off with a simple contra and built up from there. No muss.
No fuss. Worked quite well. I believe the caller's calmness and just doing
it worked ... never any question that it wouldn't.
Another data point is Lake Eden Arts Festival which, pre-covid, had 5,000
people attending. Their gym, "Brookside", had contra dances with (at peak)
some 400 dancers. Many (??%) dancers are drunk/high beginners who drop in
since they're already there enjoying the weekend. They have fun for awhile
then leave. Don't know what to say about it. It is what it is.
Another data point that I've heard about is a tourist oriented Virginia
city in which the contra dance location was, for awhile, downtown in the
tourist district. They struggled with older non-contra tourists
overwhelming their small dance. I believe their solution was to move the
dance out of the tourist center.
Wishing everyone well as we keep the dance going,
-Heitzso
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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18 Jul
18 Jul
12:45 a.m.
New subject: REMINDER TO LIST YOUR NAME AND DANCE LOCATION truggling to Revitalize the core post covid
Hi folks
This is my every 17 week reminder for you to list your name (some of you do
not have your name in the "sent" line and especially where your home dance
is or you live.
It not only is informational, but also builds community within our list
Paul Rosenberg
Albany, NY
www.homespun.biz
*Joy Through Traditional Dance & Live Fiddle Music*
518-482-9255
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 6:59 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
The idea I have been cogitating on for a while is to
somehow change
people's perception of the starting time causing a bit of a cultural
shift. Our dance lesson is at 7:00, dance at 7:30. I would really love it
if we could get the majority of folks to embrace the idea that everyone
come at 7:00. At our last dance we had about 2-3 experienced dancers
participating in the beginners lesson. That's a challenge with about 30
new students. I imagine new folks could easily feel like "a tribe apart"
with beginners at 7 and everyone else come at 7:30. If we could get the
majority of our experienced dancers to come at 7:00 and help teach the
lesson that would be so grand.
Have any of you been successful in making that shift? Changing the
attitude to.... "dance starts at 7:00 and we spend the first 30 minutes
welcoming and teaching the beginning dancers because we all know the dance
will be much more fun that way". If we could make that leap, I think
newbies would feel more welcome and likely to return. It's unrealistic to
expect everyone to show up at 7, but I am planning to reach out to several
experienced dancers to see if we can get more of them on the floor for the
lesson.
Also considering "doors open at 6:30" to give folks time to socialize
before beginning the lesson/dance at 7:00.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 4:11 PM Don Veino via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
A thought on the topic of dance angels...
Would it be helpful to try matching age groups of the beginners and
angels? Having a shared social reference frame (for lack of a better
phrase) could help incorporate those dancers more comfortably? I mention
this as we had a slug of incoming students from an area private school
arrive at our dance as newcomers and our friendly and helpful older crew
did the community thing - which was great but slightly put them off. The
lack of folks in their age group came up in my later conversation with them
- they had a great time but were looking to mix more with folks of their
own age. Of course that's a chicken/egg thing (I encouraged them to bring
more of their friends next time), but...
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 5:00 PM Heitzso via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Seconding a lot of what's been said.
My wife, Jennifer Horrocks, and I hosted 2 regional organizers retreats
back in '17 & '18 and have our next this upcoming weekend. This came up in
the two pre-covid retreats with some form of dance angels the most common
mechanism used to integrate the new dancers. (informal ambassadors or
formal special name tags varied). I agree that 60% new dancers is
difficult; that's a higher % of beginners than what most dances deal with.
My reason to chime in is to flag the *variation in demographics* for
both your experienced and inexperienced dancers affects the dance.
This upcoming Saturday ContraForce will play at Sautee's dance in N
Georgia (in the middle of nowhere) in a very old gym. Many of our retreat
folks will take that evening off to attend. It is a dance at which it's not
uncommon for 20+% to be new dancers. The most successful callers (in my
opinion) have, after the lesson, started off with easy but not trivial
contras and steadily built up from there which takes advantage of the
experienced dancers knowledge and doesn't bore the experienced dancers to
death.. 20% is not 60%. Mentioning because there are always beginners at
that dance and not all callers handle them well.
I believe it's important to know the age and hence physical and mental
capability of the new dancers. Sautee's dance tends to be family oriented
so the new (& experienced) dancers range in age from teens to seniors. I
went to a ContraForce dance at Clemson University several years ago. The %
of new dancers was around your 60%, but the new dancers were entirely
college students. The caller was a student and not a solid caller. The new
dancers took incredibly quickly to the dance. *60% beginners? No
problem!*
I was at a River Falls Lodge pre-covid dance packed with so many lines
of dancers that it was easy to get confused with what's up and down and
sideways. Dancers were mostly students (under 25?) and, I'd guess, 40%
beginners. Caller came late so no beginners' lesson. The caller just
started everyone off with a simple contra and built up from there. No muss.
No fuss. Worked quite well. I believe the caller's calmness and just doing
it worked ... never any question that it wouldn't.
Another data point is Lake Eden Arts Festival which, pre-covid, had
5,000 people attending. Their gym, "Brookside", had contra dances with (at
peak) some 400 dancers. Many (??%) dancers are drunk/high beginners who
drop in since they're already there enjoying the weekend. They have fun for
awhile then leave. Don't know what to say about it. It is what it is.
Another data point that I've heard about is a tourist oriented Virginia
city in which the contra dance location was, for awhile, downtown in the
tourist district. They struggled with older non-contra tourists
overwhelming their small dance. I believe their solution was to move the
dance out of the tourist center.
Wishing everyone well as we keep the dance going,
-Heitzso
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
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12:47 a.m.
Do your new dancers reliably show up at 7? In my experience at our dance
(Cambridge MA) probably a quarter are there by the posted workshop time,
and half are there by the end of the workshop. If new dancers are
mostly not making the workshop then pushing hard on your experienced
dancers to show up early and help out is unlikely to help much.
Jeff
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 6:59 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
The idea I have been cogitating on for a while is to
somehow change
people's perception of the starting time causing a bit of a cultural
shift. Our dance lesson is at 7:00, dance at 7:30. I would really love it
if we could get the majority of folks to embrace the idea that everyone
come at 7:00. At our last dance we had about 2-3 experienced dancers
participating in the beginners lesson. That's a challenge with about 30
new students. I imagine new folks could easily feel like "a tribe apart"
with beginners at 7 and everyone else come at 7:30. If we could get the
majority of our experienced dancers to come at 7:00 and help teach the
lesson that would be so grand.
Have any of you been successful in making that shift? Changing the
attitude to.... "dance starts at 7:00 and we spend the first 30 minutes
welcoming and teaching the beginning dancers because we all know the dance
will be much more fun that way". If we could make that leap, I think
newbies would feel more welcome and likely to return. It's unrealistic to
expect everyone to show up at 7, but I am planning to reach out to several
experienced dancers to see if we can get more of them on the floor for the
lesson.
Also considering "doors open at 6:30" to give folks time to socialize
before beginning the lesson/dance at 7:00.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 4:11 PM Don Veino via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
A thought on the topic of dance angels...
Would it be helpful to try matching age groups of the beginners and
angels? Having a shared social reference frame (for lack of a better
phrase) could help incorporate those dancers more comfortably? I mention
this as we had a slug of incoming students from an area private school
arrive at our dance as newcomers and our friendly and helpful older crew
did the community thing - which was great but slightly put them off. The
lack of folks in their age group came up in my later conversation with them
- they had a great time but were looking to mix more with folks of their
own age. Of course that's a chicken/egg thing (I encouraged them to bring
more of their friends next time), but...
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 5:00 PM Heitzso via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Seconding a lot of what's been said.
My wife, Jennifer Horrocks, and I hosted 2 regional organizers retreats
back in '17 & '18 and have our next this upcoming weekend. This came up in
the two pre-covid retreats with some form of dance angels the most common
mechanism used to integrate the new dancers. (informal ambassadors or
formal special name tags varied). I agree that 60% new dancers is
difficult; that's a higher % of beginners than what most dances deal with.
My reason to chime in is to flag the *variation in demographics* for
both your experienced and inexperienced dancers affects the dance.
This upcoming Saturday ContraForce will play at Sautee's dance in N
Georgia (in the middle of nowhere) in a very old gym. Many of our retreat
folks will take that evening off to attend. It is a dance at which it's not
uncommon for 20+% to be new dancers. The most successful callers (in my
opinion) have, after the lesson, started off with easy but not trivial
contras and steadily built up from there which takes advantage of the
experienced dancers knowledge and doesn't bore the experienced dancers to
death.. 20% is not 60%. Mentioning because there are always beginners at
that dance and not all callers handle them well.
I believe it's important to know the age and hence physical and mental
capability of the new dancers. Sautee's dance tends to be family oriented
so the new (& experienced) dancers range in age from teens to seniors. I
went to a ContraForce dance at Clemson University several years ago. The %
of new dancers was around your 60%, but the new dancers were entirely
college students. The caller was a student and not a solid caller. The new
dancers took incredibly quickly to the dance. *60% beginners? No
problem!*
I was at a River Falls Lodge pre-covid dance packed with so many lines
of dancers that it was easy to get confused with what's up and down and
sideways. Dancers were mostly students (under 25?) and, I'd guess, 40%
beginners. Caller came late so no beginners' lesson. The caller just
started everyone off with a simple contra and built up from there. No muss.
No fuss. Worked quite well. I believe the caller's calmness and just doing
it worked ... never any question that it wouldn't.
Another data point is Lake Eden Arts Festival which, pre-covid, had
5,000 people attending. Their gym, "Brookside", had contra dances with (at
peak) some 400 dancers. Many (??%) dancers are drunk/high beginners who
drop in since they're already there enjoying the weekend. They have fun for
awhile then leave. Don't know what to say about it. It is what it is.
Another data point that I've heard about is a tourist oriented Virginia
city in which the contra dance location was, for awhile, downtown in the
tourist district. They struggled with older non-contra tourists
overwhelming their small dance. I believe their solution was to move the
dance out of the tourist center.
Wishing everyone well as we keep the dance going,
-Heitzso
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1:16 a.m.
Good point Jeff. At our last dance we had at least 25 new dancers at the
beginning of the lesson, but it varies.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:47 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu> wrote:
Do your new dancers reliably show up at 7? In my
experience at our dance
(Cambridge MA) probably a quarter are there by the posted workshop time,
and half are there by the end of the workshop. If new dancers are
mostly not making the workshop then pushing hard on your experienced
dancers to show up early and help out is unlikely to help much.
Jeff
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 6:59 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
The idea I have been cogitating on for a while is
to somehow change
people's perception of the starting time causing a bit of a cultural
shift. Our dance lesson is at 7:00, dance at 7:30. I would really love it
if we could get the majority of folks to embrace the idea that everyone
come at 7:00. At our last dance we had about 2-3 experienced dancers
participating in the beginners lesson. That's a challenge with about 30
new students. I imagine new folks could easily feel like "a tribe apart"
with beginners at 7 and everyone else come at 7:30. If we could get the
majority of our experienced dancers to come at 7:00 and help teach the
lesson that would be so grand.
Have any of you been successful in making that shift? Changing the
attitude to.... "dance starts at 7:00 and we spend the first 30 minutes
welcoming and teaching the beginning dancers because we all know the dance
will be much more fun that way". If we could make that leap, I think
newbies would feel more welcome and likely to return. It's unrealistic to
expect everyone to show up at 7, but I am planning to reach out to several
experienced dancers to see if we can get more of them on the floor for the
lesson.
Also considering "doors open at 6:30" to give folks time to socialize
before beginning the lesson/dance at 7:00.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 4:11 PM Don Veino via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
A thought on the topic of dance angels...
Would it be helpful to try matching age groups of the beginners and
angels? Having a shared social reference frame (for lack of a better
phrase) could help incorporate those dancers more comfortably? I mention
this as we had a slug of incoming students from an area private school
arrive at our dance as newcomers and our friendly and helpful older crew
did the community thing - which was great but slightly put them off. The
lack of folks in their age group came up in my later conversation with them
- they had a great time but were looking to mix more with folks of their
own age. Of course that's a chicken/egg thing (I encouraged them to bring
more of their friends next time), but...
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 5:00 PM Heitzso via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Seconding a lot of what's been said.
My wife, Jennifer Horrocks, and I hosted 2 regional organizers retreats
back in '17 & '18 and have our next this upcoming weekend. This came up in
the two pre-covid retreats with some form of dance angels the most common
mechanism used to integrate the new dancers. (informal ambassadors or
formal special name tags varied). I agree that 60% new dancers is
difficult; that's a higher % of beginners than what most dances deal with.
My reason to chime in is to flag the *variation in demographics* for
both your experienced and inexperienced dancers affects the dance.
This upcoming Saturday ContraForce will play at Sautee's dance in N
Georgia (in the middle of nowhere) in a very old gym. Many of our retreat
folks will take that evening off to attend. It is a dance at which it's not
uncommon for 20+% to be new dancers. The most successful callers (in my
opinion) have, after the lesson, started off with easy but not trivial
contras and steadily built up from there which takes advantage of the
experienced dancers knowledge and doesn't bore the experienced dancers to
death.. 20% is not 60%. Mentioning because there are always beginners at
that dance and not all callers handle them well.
I believe it's important to know the age and hence physical and mental
capability of the new dancers. Sautee's dance tends to be family oriented
so the new (& experienced) dancers range in age from teens to seniors. I
went to a ContraForce dance at Clemson University several years ago. The %
of new dancers was around your 60%, but the new dancers were entirely
college students. The caller was a student and not a solid caller. The new
dancers took incredibly quickly to the dance. *60% beginners? No
problem!*
I was at a River Falls Lodge pre-covid dance packed with so many lines
of dancers that it was easy to get confused with what's up and down and
sideways. Dancers were mostly students (under 25?) and, I'd guess, 40%
beginners. Caller came late so no beginners' lesson. The caller just
started everyone off with a simple contra and built up from there. No muss.
No fuss. Worked quite well. I believe the caller's calmness and just doing
it worked ... never any question that it wouldn't.
Another data point is Lake Eden Arts Festival which, pre-covid, had
5,000 people attending. Their gym, "Brookside", had contra dances with (at
peak) some 400 dancers. Many (??%) dancers are drunk/high beginners who
drop in since they're already there enjoying the weekend. They have fun for
awhile then leave. Don't know what to say about it. It is what it is.
Another data point that I've heard about is a tourist oriented Virginia
city in which the contra dance location was, for awhile, downtown in the
tourist district. They struggled with older non-contra tourists
overwhelming their small dance. I believe their solution was to move the
dance out of the tourist center.
Wishing everyone well as we keep the dance going,
-Heitzso
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2:21 a.m.
In follow up to Jeff, my series is in the same general area but we differ a
bit in type of crowd (Cambridge/BIDA = city/public transit/skewed younger,
mine/Concord MA = suburbs/older professionals/car culture ~25 miles outside
city) and timing (BIDA = weekend, mine = weekday) yet we have a similar
logistical timeline for the most part.
FWIW, by way of one example, here's the effective timeline for our suburban
series (posted as a 7:30 - 10:30 dance):
6:30 organizers arrive, open hall, basic logistics and sound set up starts
6:45 door sitter arrives and prepares for admissions
6:50 most musicians have arrived and cabling/level setting under way, door
ready for admissions
7:00 caller has arrived, connects with band and organizers
7:05 basic sound settings complete for musicians present, stage monitor
mixing underway
(good news is we have many repeating musicians and saved mixer presets for
them)
7:10 published beginner lesson start (ideally, sound is now out of the way
so caller can
teach w/out mic on the floor)
7:15 latest beginner lesson start; critical mass of experienced folks in
the hall and available to join
7:25 ideally beginner lesson complete; band plays warm up tune for mixing
mains in the hall if not completed earlier,
caller's level is set - ready for welcome and first walkthrough
7:30 dance start (~2/3 to 3/4 of final crowd size present, many coming
after work/dinner)
9-9:10 break begins (many beginners leave, plus ~30% of crowd due to early
morning start), ~10 min break
10:25 final waltz
10:30 dance ends, sound off, pack out begins
11:00 (hopefully) ready to lock hall
Most callers fit 12 +/- 1 called dance slots into this timeline.
Regarding the beginner lesson, note the short duration. In the early 2000s
it was uncommon for area dances here to have a beginner lesson at all (yet
with robust dance attendance) but most have added them now. I'm strongly of
the opinion anything over 15 minutes for a lesson is too much - less
talking, fewer moves and more repeats for body sense acquisition instead.
By starting later we have more experienced folks available at what feels
like a "normal" time for them to show up AND more of the beginners
*actually present* to learn.
If you have a larger % of beginners, my take is you don't really need a
longer lesson because the first dances will need to be simple enough to
keep everyone together (effectively more of the lesson, in the line
context, in the moment). If fewer, you still don't need to overload
their brains with additional moves in the lesson which may then not be
needed until several dances in. Trust the experienced crew to help hold it
together and serve as guides while the material strives possibly higher,
but again teaching well any new bits in the moment & context of the line.
This may expect a bit more from your callers to pull off.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 8:47 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu>
wrote:
Do your new dancers reliably show up at 7? In my
experience at our dance
(Cambridge MA) probably a quarter are there by the posted workshop time,
and half are there by the end of the workshop. If new dancers are
mostly not making the workshop then pushing hard on your experienced
dancers to show up early and help out is unlikely to help much.
Jeff
7:35 p.m.
Chiming in to note a pattern in our area that differs from what some of
these other dances report, which is that at Sautee, Atlanta, and
Gainesville (all NE Georgia) dances it is common for most new dancers to
arrive on time and for there to be about as many experienced dancers
that come early and help out with the beginners' lesson as there are
beginners. In Sautee this Saturday for ContraForce they'll probably have
so many attending the lesson that the lesson circle (at the start of the
lesson) will have trouble fitting around the perimeter of the large old
gym, with some half of those being experienced dancers.
I don't know why that is (on time, roughly as many experienced coming
early). Cultural pattern? It just tends to happen so I don't think about it.
Other notes ... re socialize before the dance ... Sautee established
itself over decade(s) as a family friendly dance. For many years they
hosted a pot luck before every dance until the core folks who did most
of the work got exhausted. I don't know their current post-covid
pattern, but pre-covid they still did pot lucks but just for the talent
and volunteers helping setup.
-Heitzso
Gainesville, Georgia
The idea I have been cogitating on for a while is to
somehow change
people's perception of the starting time causing a bit of a cultural
shift. Our dance lesson is at 7:00, dance at 7:30. I would really
love it if we could get the majority of folks to embrace the idea that
everyone come at 7:00. At our last dance we had about 2-3 experienced
dancers participating in the beginners lesson. That's a challenge
with about 30 new students. I imagine new folks could easily feel
like "a tribe apart" with beginners at 7 and everyone else come at
7:30. If we could get the majority of our experienced dancers to come
at 7:00 and help teach the lesson that would be so grand.
Have any of you been successful in making that shift? Changing the
attitude to.... "dance starts at 7:00 and we spend the first 30
minutes welcoming and teaching the beginning dancers because we all
know the dance will be much more fun that way". If we could make that
leap, I think newbies would feel more welcome and likely to return.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to show up at 7, but I am planning
to reach out to several experienced dancers to see if we can get more
of them on the floor for the lesson.
Also considering "doors open at 6:30" to give folks time to socialize
before beginning the lesson/dance at 7:00.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 4:11 PM Don Veino via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
A thought on the topic of dance angels...
Would it be helpful to try matching age groups of the beginners
and angels? Having a shared social reference frame (for lack of a
better phrase) could help incorporate those dancers more
comfortably? I mention this as we had a slug of incoming students
from an area private school arrive at our dance as newcomers and
our friendly and helpful older crew did the community thing -
which was great but slightly put them off. The lack of folks in
their age group came up in my later conversation with them - they
had a great time but were looking to mix more with folks of their
own age. Of course that's a chicken/egg thing (I encouraged them
to bring more of their friends next time), but...
19 Jul
19 Jul
11:13 p.m.
I like to teach a beginners’ session before dances and sometimes have
experienced dancers join in to help out. Generally that works out pretty
well, but sometimes the experienced dancers want to give their partners
advice and demonstrations beyond what I’m teaching. It’s disruptive and I
think rude sometimes as well. Lesson time is short enough without
distractions. I would rather work with a group of new dancers on my own
rather than have experienced dancers teaching twirls and other
embellishments that new people don’t really need to know yet. It’s enough
to learn 5+ figures and remember their unfamiliar names (chain, allemande,
do si do, promenade) without extra, and at this point, unnecessary
alternative or additional add-ons.
I’m wondering if anyone has tried inviting intermediate beginners to help
out at beginners’ sessions? They have been to maybe 5-10 dances and should
be somewhat familiar with basic figures, but still need some refresher
training. They should be able to act as models for the new people, provide
them some assistance getting through courtesy turns, allemandes, do si dos,
etc., and get some additional slow-time dance experience for their own
edification.
Jim Thaxter
Columbia, MO
On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 2:39 PM Heitzso via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Chiming in to note a pattern in our area that differs
from what some of
these other dances report, which is that at Sautee, Atlanta, and
Gainesville (all NE Georgia) dances it is common for most new dancers to
arrive on time and for there to be about as many experienced dancers that
come early and help out with the beginners' lesson as there are beginners.
In Sautee this Saturday for ContraForce they'll probably have so many
attending the lesson that the lesson circle (at the start of the lesson)
will have trouble fitting around the perimeter of the large old gym, with
some half of those being experienced dancers.
I don't know why that is (on time, roughly as many experienced coming
early). Cultural pattern? It just tends to happen so I don't think about it.
Other notes ... re socialize before the dance ... Sautee established
itself over decade(s) as a family friendly dance. For many years they
hosted a pot luck before every dance until the core folks who did most of
the work got exhausted. I don't know their current post-covid pattern, but
pre-covid they still did pot lucks but just for the talent and volunteers
helping setup.
-Heitzso
Gainesville, Georgia
The idea I have been cogitating on for a while is to somehow change
people's perception of the starting time causing a bit of a cultural
shift. Our dance lesson is at 7:00, dance at 7:30. I would really love it
if we could get the majority of folks to embrace the idea that everyone
come at 7:00. At our last dance we had about 2-3 experienced dancers
participating in the beginners lesson. That's a challenge with about 30
new students. I imagine new folks could easily feel like "a tribe apart"
with beginners at 7 and everyone else come at 7:30. If we could get the
majority of our experienced dancers to come at 7:00 and help teach the
lesson that would be so grand.
Have any of you been successful in making that shift? Changing the
attitude to.... "dance starts at 7:00 and we spend the first 30 minutes
welcoming and teaching the beginning dancers because we all know the dance
will be much more fun that way". If we could make that leap, I think
newbies would feel more welcome and likely to return. It's unrealistic to
expect everyone to show up at 7, but I am planning to reach out to several
experienced dancers to see if we can get more of them on the floor for the
lesson.
Also considering "doors open at 6:30" to give folks time to socialize
before beginning the lesson/dance at 7:00.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 4:11 PM Don Veino via Organizers <
organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
A thought on the topic of dance angels...
Would it be helpful to try matching age groups of the beginners and
angels? Having a shared social reference frame (for lack of a better
phrase) could help incorporate those dancers more comfortably? I mention
this as we had a slug of incoming students from an area private school
arrive at our dance as newcomers and our friendly and helpful older crew
did the community thing - which was great but slightly put them off. The
lack of folks in their age group came up in my later conversation with them
- they had a great time but were looking to mix more with folks of their
own age. Of course that's a chicken/egg thing (I encouraged them to bring
more of their friends next time), but...
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9 Aug
9 Aug
7:58 p.m.
For quite a long time my local contra dance had a lower admission price for the first half
hour, with teaching during that time, to encourage everyone to come for the teaching. (I
think it would have worked somewhat better if the reason for that had been more explicit,
something like your suggestion.)
Read Weaver
Jamaica Plain, MA
http://lcfd.org
On Jul 17, 2023, at 6:58 PM, Sandy Seiler via
Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
The idea I have been cogitating on for a while is to somehow change people's
perception of the starting time causing a bit of a cultural shift. Our dance lesson is at
7:00, dance at 7:30. I would really love it if we could get the majority of folks to
embrace the idea that everyone come at 7:00. At our last dance we had about 2-3
experienced dancers participating in the beginners lesson. That's a challenge with
about 30 new students. I imagine new folks could easily feel like "a tribe
apart" with beginners at 7 and everyone else come at 7:30. If we could get the
majority of our experienced dancers to come at 7:00 and help teach the lesson that would
be so grand.
Have any of you been successful in making that shift? Changing the attitude to....
"dance starts at 7:00 and we spend the first 30 minutes welcoming and teaching the
beginning dancers because we all know the dance will be much more fun that way". If
we could make that leap, I think newbies would feel more welcome and likely to return.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to show up at 7, but I am planning to reach out to
several experienced dancers to see if we can get more of them on the floor for the
lesson.
Also considering "doors open at 6:30" to give folks time to socialize before
beginning the lesson/dance at 7:00.
10 Sep
10 Sep
4:44 a.m.
New subject: Speakers
Hi, All,
Princeton Country Dancers in Princeton, NJ, has done extensive
research re new speakers for our contra and English dances.
We've narrowed it down to 2 choices:
JBL PRX 908 and *QSC k8.2
If any of you have used either one of these, would you please let me
know whether you'd recommend them and what you like (or dislike) about
themz/
Thanks so much.
Larry Koplik
*
*
*
4:04 p.m.
New subject: Speakers
Hi Larry,
You can access a wealth of speaker knowledge over on the TradSound
forum.
I haven't heard the PRX908. I still like my old JBL EON10G2s.
I've used the older K8s as monitors and liked them; am assuming the K8.2
is an upgrade.
Of these two, just looking at the specs, I would choose the JBLs -
slightly bigger HF driver and larger cabinet.
I'm curious why you chose these two speakers?
Thanks and good health, Weogo
LiveEdge.net
On 9/10/2023 12:44 AM, Larry Koplik via Organizers wrote:
Hi, All,
Princeton Country Dancers in Princeton, NJ, has done extensive
research re new speakers for our contra and English dances.
We've narrowed it down to 2 choices:
JBL PRX 908 and *QSC k8.2
*
6:17 p.m.
New subject: Speakers
Both of those with 8” cones, without a subwoofer, won’t give you as much low end.
Maybe that’s OK if you are in a small hall, and they are positioned well, meaning high
enough and tilted down (both have that capability built-in).
I haven’t use the JBL‘s, but the QSC’s are excellent speakers. I’ve only used the 8 inch
for monitors, but the 12 inch for both monitors and mains, with and without a subwoofer.
If you can afford the extra $400, I’d suggest going with a 12 inch.
Regardless, without doing any research on the JBL‘s, I can tell you, I would happily buy
more QSC’s.
Sent from miHand,
Peter
‘…the slimmest of instructions, “To use your gifts and dreams for good.” ’
— From Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer
On Sep 10, 2023, at 12:44 AM, Larry Koplik via
Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi, All,
Princeton Country Dancers in Princeton, NJ, has done extensive
research re new speakers for our contra and English dances.
We've narrowed it down to 2 choices:
JBL PRX 908 and QSC k8.2
If any of you have used either one of these, would you please let me
know whether you'd recommend them and what you like (or dislike) about themz/
Thanks so much.
Larry Koplik
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list -- organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-leave(a)lists.sharedweight.net
11 Sep
11 Sep
1:38 p.m.
New subject: Speakers
I was at a wedding last Tuesday (Sept. 5th) where the DJ used QSC k8.2
10" speakers.
The DJ cranked out lots of dB through them ... easily heard music across
a small lake (100 yards?).
That was impressive. He didn't have a sub with them and I was surprised by
how well they handled the lower frequencies (from across the lake when
DJ first started w/ music I assumed there was a sub).
For the reception party, lots of dB (more than you'd typically use at a
regular contra dance and DJ had the two speakers some 5' separation
pointing towards hall (from outside deck) in a way that would introduce
phase issues.
(one behind the other by 5')
I had the distinct sense that I was listening to music *over speakers*.
i.e. they were not transparent ...
Not terrible but not great. I do not know whether that was due to
speakers damaged from high dB party after party
speakers too loud introducing bad sound
other elements in sound chain introducing bad sound
phase issues from bad alignment of speakers w/o delay
I've been using RCF TT 08A ii speakers with a RCF TT 12" sub
(as noted by another ... 8" won't push out low end well) for
a ridiculously clean sound that doesn't scream "I AM A SPEAKER" for
small to medium sized spaces (not large gym ... bump up for that).
Mentioning because they're 8" for my mains and I'm happy.
I use the words "nuanced", "transparent" and "clean" for
what I go for.
But that's over $5K worth of speakers without my TT 051A center fill.
So out of the budget for most.
Heitzso
Hi, All,
Princeton Country Dancers in Princeton, NJ, has done extensive
research re new speakers for our contra and English dances.
We've narrowed it down to 2 choices:
JBL PRX 908 and *QSC k8.2
If any of you have used either one of these, would you please let me
know whether you'd recommend them and what you like (or dislike) about
themz/
Thanks so much.
Larry Koplik
*
1:56 p.m.
New subject: Speakers
Hi Larry and others
For my own gigs, as well as some dances, I thought I organize, for several
years I use the K 10 from QSC.
With my spinal stenosis I was looking for a lighter alternative. When QSC
came out with their ".2" series, I did a lot of investigation, and found
that the only drawback was the sound for the bass.
I went ahead and bought them anyway because the lighter weight was very
important and I realized that the k8.2 was actually more powerful than the
original 10 that I had, and several pounds lighter, and an easier fit in my
car.
The sound quality is incredibly clear and crisp, so I am very happy with
the speakers. Although for the last few months, I have been having feedback
problems when I am leading dances walking in front of the speakers. This is
a new problem and I'm not sure if it's something about my headset or maybe
I changed the settings accidentally on the speakers?
I never felt the need for subwoofers, but I suppose the modern day
contradancers really love that sound. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, many
of our regional dance series used the Electro Voice "Entertainer" system
which was good for the time but definitely no subwoofers.
Where I am especially impressed is when I do summer camp gigs with 250 to
300 very loud campers and the sound cuts right through!
Paul Rosenberg
Albany, NY
www.homespun.biz
*Joy Through Traditional Dance & Live Fiddle Music*
518-482-9255
On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 12:44 AM Larry Koplik <lkoplik(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Hi, All,
Princeton Country Dancers in Princeton, NJ, has done extensive
research re new speakers for our contra and English dances.
We've narrowed it down to 2 choices:
JBL PRX 908 and
*QSC k8.2 If any of you have used either one of these, would you please
let me know whether you'd recommend them and what you like (or dislike)
about themz/ Thanks so much. Larry Koplik *
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23 comments
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participants (15)
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Don Veino -
Harris Lapiroff -
Heitzso -
Jeff Kaufman -
Jim Thaxter -
Joe Harrington -
John Little -
Larry Koplik -
Lisa Marie Lunt -
Paul Rosenberg -
Peter Martel -
Read Weaver -
ROBERT FABINSKI -
Sandy Seiler -
Weogo Reed