3 Nov
2019
3 Nov
'19
12:38 a.m.
The question of Keys, Key Signatures, and Modes comes up again and again.
Most explanations seem somewhat jumbled and/or full of technical description.
This is confusing, but over the years (decades?) it has become clearer to me.
It comes down to:
What note does the tune resolve too? (its Tonic Note)
What notes are in the scale of the tune? (how many Flats or Sharps)
Chords give clues, but they are subjective or 'symptomatic' as chord choices are
not always universally agreed upon.
Why does it matter what the Key is?
Knowing what the Key is alerts melody players what notes, and chord players what chords,
to expect (or not expect).
Yes, it is possible to play well without knowing what Key, Notes, or Chords you are
playing, but most people recognize they have names; and it is easier to understand if
everyone uses the correct names.
Tunes may also contain 'accidental' notes (not in the scale of the Key), but these
usually stand out as different - the more one plays the more intuitive they are.
TRAD MUSIC ONLY USES 4 MODES?
Major, Mixolydian, Dorian, and Minor are the 4 Modes that virtually all Tradition
(Western) Music use - Celtic, Old Time, Country, Blues, Bluegrass, Rhythm & Blues; and
I believe Rock, and maybe Jazz too.
Tunes that are in a Major (Ionian) Key tend to be self-evident, however the mislabeling of
tunes in Minor (Aeolian) and 'Modal' Keys (Mixolydian and Dorian) cloud that
clarity. There are also 3 other 'Authentic' Modes (Phrygian, Locrian, and Lydian)
that rarely come up.
There also happen to be 7 "Plagal (or Hypo-) Modes" where tunes resolve to the
fourth note of the scale, instead of the first (or last) note. These are typically used in
'Renaissance' music, but commonly are likely never noticed that there is a
'different' name for the scale of same notes. For example the Hypoionian uses the
same notes as the Ionian (Major), but the fourth note is the tonic.
HOW TO DETERMINE THE KEY?
1) determine what note a tune (or each of its parts) resolve to - its Tonic Note.
2) determine what notes are played (comprise the scale - how many sharps or flats) - its
Key Signature
3) match the Tonic Note and Key Signature with the appropriate Key Name.
KEY NAME is the Tonic NOTE followed by the MODE:
Start by presuming the note it resolves to is a Major Key, and how many flats or sharps
would that be?
C Major = 0b / 0#
G Major = 1#
D Major = 2#
A Major = 3#
E Major = 4#
B Major = 7b / 5#
Gb (F#) Major = 6b / 6#
Db (C#) Major = 5b / 7#
Ab (G#) Major = 4b
Eb (D#) Major = 3b
Bb (A#) Major = 2b
F Major = 1b
If less sharps (or more flats) are used, how many?
0 fewer, then Major (Ionian)
-1# (or +1b), then Mixolydian
-2# (or +2b), then Dorian
-3# (or +3b), then Minor (Aeolian)
-4# (or +4b), then Phrygian
-5# (or +5b), then Locrian
-6# (or +6b), then Lydian
Example:
If a tune resolve to A:
A Major has 3#s
but Key signature (or actual #s in tune) is 1#
then A Dorian
The attached chart may make it clearer.
5 Jun
5 Jun
10:13 a.m.
Hi everyone,
I realize that the PDF from Michael may not come through properly in the digest version.
Here’s a link to the original post:
https://lists.sharedweight.net/hyperkitty/list/musicians@lists.sharedweight…
and specifically to the PDF attachment:
https://lists.sharedweight.net/hyperkitty/list/musicians@lists.sharedweight…
Seth
On Nov 3, 2019, at 12:38 AM, Michael Pavan via
Musicians <musicians(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
The question of Keys, Key Signatures, and Modes comes up again and again.
Most explanations seem somewhat jumbled and/or full of technical description.
This is confusing, but over the years (decades?) it has become clearer to me.
It comes down to:
What note does the tune resolve too? (its Tonic Note)
What notes are in the scale of the tune? (how many Flats or Sharps)
Chords give clues, but they are subjective or 'symptomatic' as chord choices are
not always universally agreed upon.
Why does it matter what the Key is?
Knowing what the Key is alerts melody players what notes, and chord players what chords,
to expect (or not expect).
Yes, it is possible to play well without knowing what Key, Notes, or Chords you are
playing, but most people recognize they have names; and it is easier to understand if
everyone uses the correct names.
Tunes may also contain 'accidental' notes (not in the scale of the Key), but
these usually stand out as different - the more one plays the more intuitive they are.
TRAD MUSIC ONLY USES 4 MODES?
Major, Mixolydian, Dorian, and Minor are the 4 Modes that virtually all Tradition
(Western) Music use - Celtic, Old Time, Country, Blues, Bluegrass, Rhythm & Blues; and
I believe Rock, and maybe Jazz too.
Tunes that are in a Major (Ionian) Key tend to be self-evident, however the mislabeling
of tunes in Minor (Aeolian) and 'Modal' Keys (Mixolydian and Dorian) cloud that
clarity. There are also 3 other 'Authentic' Modes (Phrygian, Locrian, and Lydian)
that rarely come up.
There also happen to be 7 "Plagal (or Hypo-) Modes" where tunes resolve to the
fourth note of the scale, instead of the first (or last) note. These are typically used in
'Renaissance' music, but commonly are likely never noticed that there is a
'different' name for the scale of same notes. For example the Hypoionian uses the
same notes as the Ionian (Major), but the fourth note is the tonic.
HOW TO DETERMINE THE KEY?
1) determine what note a tune (or each of its parts) resolve to - its Tonic Note.
2) determine what notes are played (comprise the scale - how many sharps or flats) - its
Key Signature
3) match the Tonic Note and Key Signature with the appropriate Key Name.
KEY NAME is the Tonic NOTE followed by the MODE:
Start by presuming the note it resolves to is a Major Key, and how many flats or sharps
would that be?
C Major = 0b / 0#
G Major = 1#
D Major = 2#
A Major = 3#
E Major = 4#
B Major = 7b / 5#
Gb (F#) Major = 6b / 6#
Db (C#) Major = 5b / 7#
Ab (G#) Major = 4b
Eb (D#) Major = 3b
Bb (A#) Major = 2b
F Major = 1b
If less sharps (or more flats) are used, how many?
0 fewer, then Major (Ionian)
-1# (or +1b), then Mixolydian
-2# (or +2b), then Dorian
-3# (or +3b), then Minor (Aeolian)
-4# (or +4b), then Phrygian
-5# (or +5b), then Locrian
-6# (or +6b), then Lydian
Example:
If a tune resolve to A:
A Major has 3#s
but Key signature (or actual #s in tune) is 1#
then A Dorian
The attached chart may make it clearer.
<Key : Mode.pdf>_______________________________________________
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7 Jun
7 Jun
12:11 a.m.
Hi,
Thanks for the analysis!
Here's my spin on it, rooted partly in my background in the music of the
eastern Mediterranean and SE Europe.
The notion of a "mode" is different than the notion of a "scale". A
"scale"
tells you which notes to play. A "mode", in addition to this, also gives
you guidelines for forming melodies using those notes. Being the technical
person that I am, I think of it a bit like the mathematical notions of a
scalar vs. a vector: A "mode" also gives you a direction.
That is the difference between the Ionian and Hypoionian modes: They have
the same scale, but one of them resolves to the 4th note instead of the 1st
note (the "tonic").
And really, even our friend the "major scale" is really a mode, or, we use
it as a mode: It resolves to the tonic, and uses the 5th note (the
"dominant") as a sort of frequent layover; the 1st and 5th notes together
anchor the melody.
(There are modes in the world where that other anchor note, that layover
note, is not the 5th. I don't know enough about Western modes to know if
any of them do that.)
Now: That other anchor - the dominant - splits the mode into 2 pieces.
Let's take a C major scale:
C D E F G a b c
The 5-note bottom component of the mode, from the tonic to the dominant, is:
C D E F G
The 4-note top component of the mode, from the dominant to the next tonic,
is:
G a b c
The bottom part is a major group - it comprises the beginning of a major
scale.
The top part is also a major group - it's sort of like the beginning of its
own major scale, starting on G.
So: A major scale consists of a major group on the bottom + a major group
on top.
A myxolydian scale consists of a major group on the bottom + a minor group
on top.
A Dorian scale consists of a minor group on the bottom + a minor group on
top.
As for the minor scale (I assume you mean natural) - it has a minor group
on the bottom, and a top group that has its own distinct sound - Phrygian.
So, the four mainstream modes are composed of 3 types of groups:
* Major group: Has a sharp, happy sounding 3rd. Examples:
- D E F# G A
- G A B C
* Minor group: Has a flat, sentimental or mystical sounding 3rd. Examples:
- D E F G A
- G A Bb C
* Phrygian group: Has that distinct drooping sort of sound, with the flat
3rd as well as flat 2nd. Examples:
- D Eb F G A
- G Ab Bb C
So:
* Identify the two anchor notes: The tonic and the dominant.
* Identify the types of the two groups comprising the scale - the 5-note
group from the tonic to the dominant and the 4-note group from the dominant
to the next tonic.
There - you have your mode (well, technically, scale).
If you feel a compulsion to assign a name to the mode:
[ major -- major ] = major
[ major -- minor ] = Myxolydian
[ minor -- minor ] = Dorian
[ minor -- Phrygian ] = minor
Zei gezunt,
Yaron
12:39 a.m.
How would you classify Lydian?
Bottom:
DEF#G# - Whole tone
Top:
ABC#D - Major
From: Yaron Shragai via Musicians <musicians(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 9:11 PM
To: Seth Seeger <seth(a)tofutavern.com>
Cc: musicians(a)sharedweight.net
Subject: [Musicians] Re: What Key is it?
Hi,
Thanks for the analysis!
Here's my spin on it, rooted partly in my background in the music of the eastern
Mediterranean and SE Europe.
The notion of a "mode" is different than the notion of a "scale". A
"scale" tells you which notes to play. A "mode", in addition to this,
also gives you guidelines for forming melodies using those notes. Being the technical
person that I am, I think of it a bit like the mathematical notions of a scalar vs. a
vector: A "mode" also gives you a direction.
That is the difference between the Ionian and Hypoionian modes: They have the same scale,
but one of them resolves to the 4th note instead of the 1st note (the
"tonic").
And really, even our friend the "major scale" is really a mode, or, we use it as
a mode: It resolves to the tonic, and uses the 5th note (the "dominant") as a
sort of frequent layover; the 1st and 5th notes together anchor the melody.
(There are modes in the world where that other anchor note, that layover note, is not the
5th. I don't know enough about Western modes to know if any of them do that.)
Now: That other anchor - the dominant - splits the mode into 2 pieces. Let's take a C
major scale:
C D E F G a b c
The 5-note bottom component of the mode, from the tonic to the dominant, is:
C D E F G
The 4-note top component of the mode, from the dominant to the next tonic, is:
G a b c
The bottom part is a major group - it comprises the beginning of a major scale.
The top part is also a major group - it's sort of like the beginning of its own major
scale, starting on G.
So: A major scale consists of a major group on the bottom + a major group on top.
A myxolydian scale consists of a major group on the bottom + a minor group on top.
A Dorian scale consists of a minor group on the bottom + a minor group on top.
As for the minor scale (I assume you mean natural) - it has a minor group on the bottom,
and a top group that has its own distinct sound - Phrygian.
So, the four mainstream modes are composed of 3 types of groups:
* Major group: Has a sharp, happy sounding 3rd. Examples:
- D E F# G A
- G A B C
* Minor group: Has a flat, sentimental or mystical sounding 3rd. Examples:
- D E F G A
- G A Bb C
* Phrygian group: Has that distinct drooping sort of sound, with the flat 3rd as well as
flat 2nd. Examples:
- D Eb F G A
- G Ab Bb C
So:
* Identify the two anchor notes: The tonic and the dominant.
* Identify the types of the two groups comprising the scale - the 5-note group from the
tonic to the dominant and the 4-note group from the dominant to the next tonic.
There - you have your mode (well, technically, scale).
If you feel a compulsion to assign a name to the mode:
[ major -- major ] = major
[ major -- minor ] = Myxolydian
[ minor -- minor ] = Dorian
[ minor -- Phrygian ] = minor
Zei gezunt,
Yaron
12:04 p.m.
I guess I'd call the bottom 5-note group a "Lydian" group - so, the scale
of the Lydian mode would consist of a 5-note Lydian group on the bottom and
a 4-note major group on top
(...As Western folk music musicians I guess we don't encounter the Lydian
pattern very often... In Romanian music it does occur now and then (but
they wouldn't call it "Lydian")... and I think I've been told it occurs
in
Scandinavian music?)
- Yaron
On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 12:39 AM Erik Hoffman <erik(a)erikhoffman.com> wrote:
How would you classify Lydian?
Bottom:
DEF#G# - Whole tone
Top:
ABC#D - Major
*From:* Yaron Shragai via Musicians <musicians(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
*Sent:* Saturday, June 6, 2020 9:11 PM
*To:* Seth Seeger <seth(a)tofutavern.com>
*Cc:* musicians(a)sharedweight.net
*Subject:* [Musicians] Re: What Key is it?
Hi,
Thanks for the analysis!
Here's my spin on it, rooted partly in my background in the music of the
eastern Mediterranean and SE Europe.
The notion of a "mode" is different than the notion of a "scale". A
"scale" tells you which notes to play. A "mode", in addition to this,
also
gives you guidelines for forming melodies using those notes. Being the
technical person that I am, I think of it a bit like the mathematical
notions of a scalar vs. a vector: A "mode" also gives you a direction.
That is the difference between the Ionian and Hypoionian modes: They have
the same scale, but one of them resolves to the 4th note instead of the 1st
note (the "tonic").
And really, even our friend the "major scale" is really a mode, or, we use
it as a mode: It resolves to the tonic, and uses the 5th note (the
"dominant") as a sort of frequent layover; the 1st and 5th notes together
anchor the melody.
(There are modes in the world where that other anchor note, that layover
note, is not the 5th. I don't know enough about Western modes to know if
any of them do that.)
Now: That other anchor - the dominant - splits the mode into 2 pieces.
Let's take a C major scale:
C D E F G a b c
The 5-note bottom component of the mode, from the tonic to the dominant,
is:
C D E F G
The 4-note top component of the mode, from the dominant to the next tonic,
is:
G a b c
The bottom part is a major group - it comprises the beginning of a major
scale.
The top part is also a major group - it's sort of like the beginning of
its own major scale, starting on G.
So: A major scale consists of a major group on the bottom + a major group
on top.
A myxolydian scale consists of a major group on the bottom + a minor group
on top.
A Dorian scale consists of a minor group on the bottom + a minor group on
top.
As for the minor scale (I assume you mean natural) - it has a minor group
on the bottom, and a top group that has its own distinct sound - Phrygian.
So, the four mainstream modes are composed of 3 types of groups:
* Major group: Has a sharp, happy sounding 3rd. Examples:
- D E F# G A
- G A B C
* Minor group: Has a flat, sentimental or mystical sounding 3rd. Examples:
- D E F G A
- G A Bb C
* Phrygian group: Has that distinct drooping sort of sound, with the flat
3rd as well as flat 2nd. Examples:
- D Eb F G A
- G Ab Bb C
So:
* Identify the two anchor notes: The tonic and the dominant.
* Identify the types of the two groups comprising the scale - the 5-note
group from the tonic to the dominant and the 4-note group from the dominant
to the next tonic.
There - you have your mode (well, technically, scale).
If you feel a compulsion to assign a name to the mode:
[ major -- major ] = major
[ major -- minor ] = Myxolydian
[ minor -- minor ] = Dorian
[ minor -- Phrygian ] = minor
Zei gezunt,
Yaron
11 Jun
11 Jun
2:30 a.m.
Knowing what Key a tune is in helps me find what notes (and chords) are in an unfamiliar
tune I'm trying to play. I'm sure there are other ways musicians use, and
that's fine.
I have long tried to determine a simple way to know how to correctly name the Key of a
tune for that reason. Most people seem to only recognize Major, Minor, and modal; and
usually would only look at the key signature if written or 'how it feels' for
aural only players. I think the 'classic' explanations of Keys and Modes are why
most don't bother.
Many times tunes would be called "A modal", but written with 3 #s and have every
G naturalized, and sometimes every C naturalized too. "A modal" tunes with F#s,
C#s, and G naturals sound different than those with F#s, C naturals, and G naturals.
I've struggled unsuccessfully for a long time with textbook (and other) confusing
explanations to determine the more 'accurate' / definitive Key names than: "A
modal"; "A with all the Gs naturalized; or "A with all the Gs and Cs
naturalized.
I realized that the textbooks and educators were likely correct, but just not clearly
presenting the information in an easy to understand organization. Finally I laid out Tonic
Notes, number of sharps or flats, and Mode names in a simple chart. I also showed the
Circle of Fifths (without referring to it) so that anyone could see that they are 'in
agreement'.
I'm sure there is usefulness in splitting up scales for further analysis, but I'm
not going there.
I hope my chart helps others; but if happy, mystical, or droopy works for some, that's
fine too.
1624
days inactive
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musicians@lists.sharedweight.net
5 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Erik Hoffman -
Michael Pavan -
Seth Seeger -
Yaron Shragai