23 Apr
2014
23 Apr
'14
1:58 p.m.
I agree with Jeff. We are a national community (in some ways, at least),
and we owe it to the dancers we serve to make our spaces safe for
everybody. Maybe, if a newcomer is making people uncomfortable, talking to
that newcomer might change his behavior. But that's not your situation.
If Josh has been harassing and sometimes hurting women for more than five
years, despite being talked to consistently by many dance organizers, then
assuming that the same talking-to is going to have any effect just doesn't
make much sense.
I disagree with Orin's approach. No matter how tight you make a written
contract, you won't be able to include every single possibly bad behavior.
And some behaviors (like leering) are too hard to define with any
precision. Consulting a lawyer might be good advice, but keep in mind that
you always have the right to expel somebody from your dance. People get
expelled from "public" events that require an admission fee all the time
for breaking norms; look at any time somebody jumps on the field during a
baseball game, or try rushing the stage at a concert, etc. Those events
are just as public as a contra dance (open to everybody who pays the price
of admission).
I understand that some people on this list likely have problems with naming
particular problem dancers. I think it's our duty to do so. We owe it to
dancers to put on a safe event, and trying to hide names of people who make
our dances unsafe detracts from that goal.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Orin Nisenson <orin(a)nisenson.com> wrote:
I strongly suggest that you consult a lawyer to find
out what your options
are and to make sure you protect yourself. I would think the law is
different for a public dance compared to a private dance/club.
I also suggest that you do a written contract with him so that there is no
confusion. I once convinced him to stop a particular behavior. The next
week he was doing it again. When I reminded him of our conversation the
week before he responded "oh, that was for last weeks dance"
Orin
Oy ...
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
First thanks to all for their support and information , both on this list
and off-list .. I will be following up independently with those that
e-mailed me in the next few days .
Yes it is the same person that caused so much trouble up in the Boston
area...
We are currently working on outreach to any dancers effected ( At least
those that we can contact and are willing to talk to us about this
sensitive issue)
So now we are on the horns of an ethical dilemma , or many different but
related ones .. :-(
Should this person get the same treatment that someone with no history of
harassing behavior should reasonably expect to receive ?
Should he be "talked to" about his actions and "given a chance to
change"
?
Should a "stepped" ban be considered ? ( Say ban for two months now , and
"probation" after ? )
Should any consideration be given to our not having had a clearly written
and posted set of "rules" ?
Btw we are working on a "policy" now and I have read every dance
organization policy on the subject that I can find . I suspect that the
object of such rules or policy should be to make the dancers comfortable (
new and old ) and provide recourse to the dance community if someone
violates the folkways of the community .. It might be better to encourage
communication within the more experienced dancers in the community and get
them to let the new dancers know through words and deeds what is acceptable
, what is not and how to tell the difference..
Thoughts ?
Rgds Q
Ps Perry ( our american dance chair ) will be at NEFFA this weekend , If
anyone has any personal experiences about this problem please let him know.
While there are things to be said for having a code of conduct (and my
--
U.S. Virgin Islands Snow Plowing Service.
Serving St. Croix, St. Thomas & St. John.
Fast reliable service, driveways & parking lots / no job
too small or large
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers
organization does have one),
having one in place is neither necessary nor sufficient for dealing with
this person.
Is it possible to have a comforting female organizer get in touch with
some of the "disappeared" women
and discuss what's happened with them? This may help assure them that
the organization cares
about their comfort and safety and that of the dancers who continue, and
will also help to establish
how far over the boundaries his behaviors have gone, which might also
help you to decide whether
the guy needs a talking to and careful watching with banning in reserve,
or just immediate banning.
(Or whether the women not coming back to contra is all an unfortunate
coincidence.)
-- Alan
On 4/21/2014 1:06 PM, Quintin Aspin wrote:
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Down here in Baltimore we are having a problem
with a dancer who
seems to be harassing young ladies , He seems particularly fond of
monopolizing their dances if he can , then moves on to sending
e-mails and giving small gifts ... Shortly there after these
unfortunately targeted newcomers seem to stop coming to the dance ...
They do not complain to anyone in charge , they just disappear from
the dance community ..
It is a situation that I , as president of BFMS , only recently
became aware of , but in retrospect it seems to have been happening
to some extent since he moved down from the Boston area .
If this is a "new" behavior and he is amenable to change I will
either talk to him , or suggest the American dance chair has a few
words with him ... But if , as I now suspect , he was doing this same
behaviors in the Boston area perhaps firmer action might be needed .
There was , in fact , a discussion over on the callers list about a
dancer in the Boston area that seems eerily reminiscent of the
situation here ..
If any of the Boston area dance folks know of whom I speak , or if he
was banned from any dances up there it would be enormously helpful if
you could send me an e-mail with just the first name of the gent in
question ....
You can send it to my regular e-mail ( the one I am subscribed to
this list ) or to be at
President ( at ) bfms.org ...
A thousand thanks from me and from a lot of dancers who hopefully
will not have to find out first hand about which they should be
thankful ...
Rgds Quintin
Ps I have looked at all the contra dance "codes of conduct" I can
find and we are having a getting to get one set up here ....
Hopefully not shutting the gate after the horse ... etc..
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list
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http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers
23 Apr
23 Apr
4:29 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] Problem dancer ? + code of conduct. , step 2 ...
The reason I suggested a contract is that it lays down the paper
trail that may be needed if any legal action is taken.
I agree that you can not cover all bad behaviors but you can cover
the basics that are expected of all dancers.
If you look at the back of tickets for many sporting and theater
event there is some sort of contract language. This gives the
organizers some form of legal rights to act. I am not suggestion that
that become the practice in the contra dance world. Contracts should
be reserved for those who fail to respond to legitimate
complaints/concerns of improper behavior. Of course the definition of
improper behavior is a whole different can of worms (no offence to
worms meant).
This person has been spoken to by many people many different times. I
doubt he would stop coming to a dance just because someone told him
he was banned. He just does not listen to what he does not want to
hear. It may be time for legal action.
Orin
I agree with Jeff. We are a national community (in
some ways, at least),
and we owe it to the dancers we serve to make our spaces safe for
everybody. Maybe, if a newcomer is making people uncomfortable, talking to
that newcomer might change his behavior. But that's not your situation.
If Josh has been harassing and sometimes hurting women for more than five
years, despite being talked to consistently by many dance organizers, then
assuming that the same talking-to is going to have any effect just doesn't
make much sense.
I disagree with Orin's approach. No matter how tight you make a written
contract, you won't be able to include every single possibly bad behavior.
And some behaviors (like leering) are too hard to define with any
precision. Consulting a lawyer might be good advice, but keep in mind that
you always have the right to expel somebody from your dance. People get
expelled from "public" events that require an admission fee all the time
for breaking norms; look at any time somebody jumps on the field during a
baseball game, or try rushing the stage at a concert, etc. Those events
are just as public as a contra dance (open to everybody who pays the price
of admission).
I understand that some people on this list likely have problems with naming
particular problem dancers. I think it's our duty to do so. We owe it to
dancers to put on a safe event, and trying to hide names of people who make
our dances unsafe detracts from that goal.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Orin Nisenson <orin(a)nisenson.com> wrote:
--
U.S. Virgin Islands Snow Plowing Service.
Serving St. Croix, St. Thomas & St. John.
Fast reliable service, driveways & parking lots / no
job too small or large
I strongly suggest that you consult a lawyer to
find out what your options
are and to make sure you protect yourself. I would think the law is
different for a public dance compared to a private dance/club.
I also suggest that you do a written contract with him so that there is no
confusion. I once convinced him to stop a particular behavior. The next
week he was doing it again. When I reminded him of our conversation the
week before he responded "oh, that was for last weeks dance"
Orin
Oy ...
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers
First thanks to all for their support and information , both on this list
and off-list .. I will be following up independently with those that
e-mailed me in the next few days .
Yes it is the same person that caused so much trouble up in the Boston
area...
We are currently working on outreach to any dancers effected ( At least
those that we can contact and are willing to talk to us about this
sensitive issue)
So now we are on the horns of an ethical dilemma , or many different but
related ones .. :-(
Should this person get the same treatment that someone with no history of
harassing behavior should reasonably expect to receive ?
Should he be "talked to" about his actions and "given a chance to
change"
?
Should a "stepped" ban be considered ? ( Say ban for two months now , and
"probation" after ? )
Should any consideration be given to our not having had a clearly written
and posted set of "rules" ?
Btw we are working on a "policy" now and I have read every dance
organization policy on the subject that I can find . I suspect that the
object of such rules or policy should be to make the dancers comfortable (
new and old ) and provide recourse to the dance community if someone
violates the folkways of the community .. It might be better to encourage
communication within the more experienced dancers in the community and get
them to let the new dancers know through words and deeds what is acceptable
, what is not and how to tell the difference..
Thoughts ?
Rgds Q
Ps Perry ( our american dance chair ) will be at NEFFA this weekend , If
anyone has any personal experiences about this problem please let him know.
While there are things to be said for having a code of conduct (and my
--
U.S. Virgin Islands Snow Plowing Service.
Serving St. Croix, St. Thomas & St. John.
Fast reliable service, driveways & parking lots / no job
too small or large
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers
organization does have one),
having one in place is neither necessary nor sufficient for dealing with
this person.
Is it possible to have a comforting female organizer get in touch with
some of the "disappeared" women
and discuss what's happened with them? This may help assure them that
the organization cares
about their comfort and safety and that of the dancers who continue, and
will also help to establish
how far over the boundaries his behaviors have gone, which might also
help you to decide whether
the guy needs a talking to and careful watching with banning in reserve,
or just immediate banning.
(Or whether the women not coming back to contra is all an unfortunate
coincidence.)
-- Alan
On 4/21/2014 1:06 PM, Quintin Aspin wrote:
> Down here in Baltimore we are having a problem with a dancer who
> seems to be harassing young ladies , He seems particularly fond of
> monopolizing their dances if he can , then moves on to sending
> e-mails and giving small gifts ... Shortly there after these
> unfortunately targeted newcomers seem to stop coming to the dance ...
> They do not complain to anyone in charge , they just disappear from
> the dance community ..
>
> It is a situation that I , as president of BFMS , only recently
> became aware of , but in retrospect it seems to have been happening
> to some extent since he moved down from the Boston area .
> If this is a "new" behavior and he is amenable to change I will
> either talk to him , or suggest the American dance chair has a few
> words with him ... But if , as I now suspect , he was doing this same
> behaviors in the Boston area perhaps firmer action might be needed .
>
> There was , in fact , a discussion over on the callers list about a
> dancer in the Boston area that seems eerily reminiscent of the
> situation here ..
>
> If any of the Boston area dance folks know of whom I speak , or if he
> was banned from any dances up there it would be enormously helpful if
> you could send me an e-mail with just the first name of the gent in
> question ....
>
> You can send it to my regular e-mail ( the one I am subscribed to
> this list ) or to be at
> President ( at ) bfms.org ...
>
> A thousand thanks from me and from a lot of dancers who hopefully
> will not have to find out first hand about which they should be
> thankful ...
>
> Rgds Quintin
>
> Ps I have looked at all the contra dance "codes of conduct" I can
> find and we are having a getting to get one set up here ....
> Hopefully not shutting the gate after the horse ... etc..
> _______________________________________________
> Organizers mailing list
> Organizers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers
>
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list
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http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers
_______________________________________________
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http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/organizers
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1 comments
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participants (2)
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Dave Casserly -
Orin Nisenson