7 Mar
2017
7 Mar
'17
1:41 a.m.
I've seen some responses on the organizers list and here, and I've
thought about the persistent rock-in-the-stream dancer we had in
Berkeley (who did, eventually, start modifying the dances so he could
get where he needed on time, and who indeed various women would ask to
dance or he'd be asking the new young women dancers and confusing them
horribly).
One thing I'm noticing from the similar stories and responses is that
all the rocks in the stream I'm hearing about are male, and it's falling
on experienced women dancers to save the dance from them.
Is this just a problem with small sample sizes? Has anyone encountered
this kind of dancer, the kind who really structurally can't ever be good
at it, spreads confusion, and yet keeps coming back, in female form?
-- Alan
On 3/6/2017 5:24 PM, Mary Collins via Callers wrote:
We have a dancer here in Buffalo that has a hard time
hearing and
ear-mind process-motor response time is very very slow. (I worry about
him driving). We have a loose house rule that the regular good lady
dancers pair with this gentleman. Otherwise he will ask newbies to
dance, and often is at the end of the line, after the walk through.
When you dance with him you have to call to him through the dance and
guide him to where he needs to be. This is how we have dealt with our
own issue.
In your case, you might want to invite him to your beginner's workshop
where you can address some of the issues you have seen him experience
(i.e. the 1/2 alemande instead of the 1 1/2 of the call, or a shorter
swing. Play up the better never than late thing and talk about
flourishes and how they are not really a necessary part of the dance
experience.
the others have mentioned other ideas that are really good.
Good luck Marie!
Mary in Buffalo
“Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about
learning to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is
bad enough that he will often make the set break if the dance is
moderately challenging. He seems to have some kind of impairment
and walks very stiffly which means he will often not be on time
for a figure and also often does not remember what is coming next.
We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence
negatively impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the
experienced dancers will take one for the team and dance with him,
it is an unpleasant experience to be his partner. Unfortunately,
we always have many new dancers and having one couple not be where
they should be can really throw them off in some dances so I feel
like I have to push and pull him around to be on time, despite the
fact that it's a little rude.
A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which
was quite accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with
similar troubles, does anyone have advice on how to deal with this
so that other dancers still have a good time yet we are nice to
this problematic dancer?
Thank you
Marie
ContraMontreal
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7 Mar
7 Mar
3:40 a.m.
New subject: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?
I've run into dancers as a caller and on the floor who fit this description
- men and women both. Most of the time the problem seems to be that they
can't get where they need to be on time, or they end a figure facing the
wrong direction.
But here's something that I learned in retrospect from an evening spent
calling a small community dance with a pair of women who were moving too
slowly for the music and who kept dancing together. I'd call a dance and
identify these problems and think to myself, "Pick a different dance for
the next one with a little more slop time in it and more figures where you
are holding hands with someone and not on your own, or maybe an uneven
dance." So I'd do that, but then I would notice that the women, who had
gotten tired during the previous dance, had decided to sit out the dance
that I'd picked to best meet their needs on the floor and prevent
breakdowns!
So then I'd go back to my original plan for the *next* dance, but there
they'd be, back up on their feet, having rested!
It took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out the pattern. Now I
know to watch for folks who had a hard time during one dance choosing to
sit out the next and regroup.
But, y'know, as soon as I think I have something figured out about dancers,
humankind throws me a curve ball.
Meg
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:41 PM Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I've seen some responses on the organizers list
and here, and I've thought
about the persistent rock-in-the-stream dancer we had in Berkeley (who did,
eventually, start modifying the dances so he could get where he needed on
time, and who indeed various women would ask to dance or he'd be asking the
new young women dancers and confusing them horribly).
One thing I'm noticing from the similar stories and responses is that all
the rocks in the stream I'm hearing about are male, and it's falling on
experienced women dancers to save the dance from them.
Is this just a problem with small sample sizes? Has anyone encountered
this kind of dancer, the kind who really structurally can't ever be good at
it, spreads confusion, and yet keeps coming back, in female form?
-- Alan
On 3/6/2017 5:24 PM, Mary Collins via Callers wrote:
We have a dancer here in Buffalo that has a hard time hearing and ear-mind
process-motor response time is very very slow. (I worry about him
driving). We have a loose house rule that the regular good lady dancers
pair with this gentleman. Otherwise he will ask newbies to dance, and
often is at the end of the line, after the walk through. When you dance
with him you have to call to him through the dance and guide him to where
he needs to be. This is how we have dealt with our own issue.
In your case, you might want to invite him to your beginner's workshop
where you can address some of the issues you have seen him experience (i.e.
the 1/2 alemande instead of the 1 1/2 of the call, or a shorter swing.
Play up the better never than late thing and talk about flourishes and how
they are not really a necessary part of the dance experience.
the others have mentioned other ideas that are really good.
Good luck Marie!
Mary in Buffalo
“Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad
enough that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately
challenging. He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very
stiffly which means he will often not be on time for a figure and also
often does not remember what is coming next.
We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively
impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers
will take one for the team and dance with him, it is an unpleasant
experience to be his partner. Unfortunately, we always have many new
dancers and having one couple not be where they should be can really throw
them off in some dances so I feel like I have to push and pull him around
to be on time, despite the fact that it's a little rude.
A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which was quite
accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with similar troubles,
does anyone have advice on how to deal with this so that other dancers
still have a good time yet we are nice to this problematic dancer?
Thank you
Marie
ContraMontreal
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6:39 a.m.
New subject: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?
Interesting observation, Alan.
Yes, I've encountered it with female dancers as a dancer and caller.
However...it isn't quite the same. I suspect it is both more apparent and
more pronounced with men, AND that once they've braved the waters to come
dancing the experience of it may be less likely to cause them to stop
dancing than it is with women.
Here's my reasoning:
Even though squares and contra are not even close to being true lead/follow
dances, the men's role is still imbued with more directional control and
responsibility in things like properly positioning swings and managing
courtesy turns. A man who persistently fails at those will be more
disruptive and obvious than an equally incompetent female counterpart due
to simple physics and the nature of contra choreography. There is nothing
to tell him that HE is the problem, and if he has never seen or experienced
a truly successful set he doesn't know any better.
There is also a more significant social component. Men tend to be rewarded
for acting confident and penalized for seeking outside validation, so much
so that we do it even when we don't know what we're doing. Women
experience the reverse situation and are likely to be criticized (or feel
they will be criticized) for being confident even when they obviously DO
know what they are doing. That means a struggling male dancer is more
likely to go confidently wrong than a woman, while a skilled male dancer is
more willing to confidently "assist" a difficult partner than his equally
skilled female counterparts. Conversely, a struggling female dancer is
more likely to accept assistance and willingly perceive the problem than a
man is.
There is research which has been done on false confidence, where people who
possess highly above-average skill will tend to underestimate their own
knowledge and overestimate that of others, while those who persistently
fail to learn will tend to do the reverse. This sort of
persistent-beginner dancer may actually believe that he is learning at a
perfectly fine rate.
Another piece of research that I think is relevant has to do with the
different reactions men and women have to the same act of failure. An
assessment was done of failed funding attempts on Kickstarter. What the
researchers discovered first was that a repeated effort was more likely to
succeed. Then they broke down the behavior by gender. When male
entrepreneurs failed to receive backing, they were highly likely to repost
the same project until it succeeded. A female entrepreneur, on the other
hand, would scrap it and try something completely different--if she tried
anything at all. The researchers interpreted this difference as being
caused by relative internalization of community commentary. (I haven't
read the original papers, and learned of both topics through NPR. I can
dig up the citations if anyone is interested in learning more.)
Anyway, if that conclusion is correct, male versions of these problem
dancers may stick around despite repeatedly failing, while the female of
the species realizes something is wrong and jumps ship. This is probably
especially true if the men are receiving any sort of encouragement or
positive feedback at all.
Just some thoughts.
Neal
Neal Schlein
Youth Services Librarian, Mahomet Public Library
Currently reading: *The Different Girl* by Gordon Dahlquist
Currently learning: How to set up an automated email system.
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:41 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I've seen some responses on the organizers list
and here, and I've thought
about the persistent rock-in-the-stream dancer we had in Berkeley (who did,
eventually, start modifying the dances so he could get where he needed on
time, and who indeed various women would ask to dance or he'd be asking the
new young women dancers and confusing them horribly).
One thing I'm noticing from the similar stories and responses is that all
the rocks in the stream I'm hearing about are male, and it's falling on
experienced women dancers to save the dance from them.
Is this just a problem with small sample sizes? Has anyone encountered
this kind of dancer, the kind who really structurally can't ever be good at
it, spreads confusion, and yet keeps coming back, in female form?
-- Alan
On 3/6/2017 5:24 PM, Mary Collins via Callers wrote:
We have a dancer here in Buffalo that has a hard time hearing and ear-mind
process-motor response time is very very slow. (I worry about him
driving). We have a loose house rule that the regular good lady dancers
pair with this gentleman. Otherwise he will ask newbies to dance, and
often is at the end of the line, after the walk through. When you dance
with him you have to call to him through the dance and guide him to where
he needs to be. This is how we have dealt with our own issue.
In your case, you might want to invite him to your beginner's workshop
where you can address some of the issues you have seen him experience (i.e.
the 1/2 alemande instead of the 1 1/2 of the call, or a shorter swing.
Play up the better never than late thing and talk about flourishes and how
they are not really a necessary part of the dance experience.
the others have mentioned other ideas that are really good.
Good luck Marie!
Mary in Buffalo
“Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad
enough that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately
challenging. He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very
stiffly which means he will often not be on time for a figure and also
often does not remember what is coming next.
We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively
impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers
will take one for the team and dance with him, it is an unpleasant
experience to be his partner. Unfortunately, we always have many new
dancers and having one couple not be where they should be can really throw
them off in some dances so I feel like I have to push and pull him around
to be on time, despite the fact that it's a little rude.
A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which was quite
accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with similar troubles,
does anyone have advice on how to deal with this so that other dancers
still have a good time yet we are nice to this problematic dancer?
Thank you
Marie
ContraMontreal
_______________________________________________
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2 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
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Meg Dedolph via Callers -
Neal Schlein via Callers
-
Winston, Alan P. via Callers