16 Dec
2017
16 Dec
'17
2:39 p.m.
Hi all,
Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember
the rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer.
A very competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I
did (late 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to
dance because he doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking
"If I don't dance with this guy then I have to sit one out. Oh crap,
guess I'll have to dance with him." For the record, he's a totally
solid and delightful dancer.
To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
replaced, and what has it been replaced with? In your dance community,
do you have a written statement of the etiquette around this? Our
community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.
Kalia
16 Dec
16 Dec
3:01 p.m.
This is Cdny’s etiquette page. It addresses saying no but not in great detail in terms of
historical practice.
http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi all,
Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember the rule about
sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. A very competent male dancer I
know who started around the same time I did (late 80s) recently confessed to me that he
never asks anyone to dance because he doesn't want to put folks in the position of
thinking "If I don't dance with this guy then I have to sit one out. Oh crap,
guess I'll have to dance with him." For the record, he's a totally solid and
delightful dancer.
To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been replaced, and what
has it been replaced with? In your dance community, do you have a written statement of
the etiquette around this? Our community's statement doesn't directly address
this issue.
Kalia
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3:18 p.m.
On 12/16/2017 12:01 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby wrote:
This is Cdny’s etiquette page. It addresses saying no
but not in great
detail in terms of historical practice.
http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/
And I hadn't realized until this conversation with my dance friend just
how problematic that earlier etiquette practice was for folks who really
wanted to be considerate of the other dancers on the floor. If they
were, for whatever reason, concerned that someone might not want to
dance with them, the mere act of asking that person to dance put the
askee in a bind. So those who started dancing in the time period when
that rule was the norm have carried that dilemma with them through the
years.
Those of you who are organizers and who deal with setting standards of
conduct for your communities, what are your thoughts about this? Has
that rule completely fallen by the wayside? If so, have any of you
specifically addressed its demise?
Kalia
3:24 p.m.
I think the story you tell is a great reason why the older etiquette of
having to sit out is silly and outdated -- I'd rather someone who doesn't
want to dance with me just say "no thank you!" And continue about their
business.
As a caller, I teach that "yes, thank you!" and "no, thank you!" are
both
perfectly acceptable answers if someone asks you to dance. I also point out
that if someone declines your offer to dance, too never take it personally.
To clarify, however, being rude is still totally unacceptable! My mom was
turned down for a dance recently with the line, "no, sorry; I'm *very*
particular with who I dance with!" Nope! Don't be that guy!
On Dec 16, 2017 3:11 PM, "Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
This is Cdny’s etiquette page. It addresses saying no
but not in great
detail in terms of historical practice.
http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi all,
Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember the
rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. A very
competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I did (late
80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to dance because he
doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking "If I don't dance
with this guy then I have to sit one out. Oh crap, guess I'll have to
dance with him." For the record, he's a totally solid and delightful
dancer.
To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
replaced, and what has it been replaced with? In your dance community, do
you have a written statement of the etiquette around this? Our community's
statement doesn't directly address this issue.
Kalia
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
5:10 p.m.
BACDS Code of Conduct says:
http://bacds.org/conduct/CodeOfConduct.pdf
-----------------
"Ask a partner kindly. Accept their answer cheerfully. If you are
repeatedly declined by a prospective partner, it is best to give them space.
Feel free to decline a dance with someone with whom you feel
uncomfortable. If you would prefer not to dance with them, a simple "no
thanks" is appropriate. We encourage you to dance with a variety of
peple both new and familiar, but your safety and comfort come first.
-------------------
So it doesn't explicitly address this, but I think it doesn't address it
because the norm is now understood to be that there's no obligations on
the person being asked.
In my beginner lessons, both contra and English, I say (when I remember)
that anybody may ask anybody else to dance, that you can accept or
decline, that you don't have to explain yourself and that indeed you
shouldn't spend a lot of time declining because that keeps the one who
asked you from finding another partner. (I also sometimes say that
unlike a bar or club, the only necessary subtext of "may I have this
dance" is "I need a partner to able to dance this dance".) I've
occasionally modeled asking, being declined, and moving on with good grace.
I think I got some of that by looking at the George Marshal beginner
session that's on youtube.
Incidentally, some brand new dancers come in with the "must sit out if
declining a dance" idea already installed; it turns out that it's there
in Jane Austen. So in discussing this in Regency-dance context I do a
thing about how this isn't re-creation but recreation - we're playing,
not slavishly reconstructing the period, and we can leave behind things
that don't work for us today.
-- Alan
On 12/16/17 11:39 AM, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote:
Hi all,
Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember
the rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer.
A very competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I
did (late 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to
dance because he doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking
"If I don't dance with this guy then I have to sit one out. Oh crap,
guess I'll have to dance with him." For the record, he's a totally
solid and delightful dancer.
To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
replaced, and what has it been replaced with? In your dance
community, do you have a written statement of the etiquette around
this? Our community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.
Kalia
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
5:48 p.m.
On 12/16/2017 2:10 PM, Alan Winston via Callers wrote:
BACDS Code of Conduct says:
http://bacds.org/conduct/CodeOfConduct.pdf
"Ask a partner kindly. Accept their answer cheerfully. If you are
repeatedly declined by a prospective partner, it is best to give them
space.
Feel free to decline a dance with someone with whom you feel
uncomfortable. If you would prefer not to dance with them, a simple "no
thanks" is appropriate. We encourage you to dance with a variety of
people both new and familiar, but your safety and comfort come first.
-------------------
So it doesn't explicitly address this, but I think it doesn't address it
because the norm is now understood to be that there's no obligations on
the person being asked.
But the issue is those dancers who came into the scene when the norm was
different, and who still carry the old assumption. I truly hadn't even
considered this problem until my recent conversation, but it pointed up
that even though those older conventions have changed, if nobody
explicitly points out that they've changed, we're leaving a lot of
dancers working with old information.
It's an extremely specific point of etiquette, and the number of dancers
affected by it may be small (or may be huge, I truly don't know). But
it exists and I'm looking for clarity on the issue within my own dance
community, and also looking for ways to address it as I teach.
Alan's points about declining an offer to dance with grace and brevity
are excellent.
I think I got some of that by looking at the George
Marshal beginner
session that's on youtube.
I'll check that out in a bit. He's generally a good one to look to for
inviting and graceful teaching.
Incidentally, some brand new dancers come in with the
"must sit out if
declining a dance" idea already installed; it turns out that it's there
in Jane Austen.
Ah. Interesting.
Looking forward to hearing from more of you.
Kalia
10:50 p.m.
Oh, yes, I remember that rule. If I was asked by someone I really didn’t want to dance
with, and I declined to dance with them, I would sit out the next dance in order not to
hurt their feelings and I had to act as if I was tired or I wanted to sit it out, all the
time wishing that I'd avoided that particular person and could be dancing. I suppose
the idea was more not to be cliquish, and only dance with the few people you knew, leaving
newcomers unwelcome and feeling left out. But I wasn’t very picky - I danced with pretty
much everyone except one or two people who were either too interested in me, or just such
bad dancers that I could get hurt. I do think it’s a good idea to not be limited by having
to sit out if you turned someone down. But perhaps people should be reminded that they
might meet a new friend if they dance with someone they don’t know. And experienced
dancers could be encouraged to dance with less experienced dancers to help improve the
overall level of competence at the dance. Some places have really suffered by having
experienced dancers that have frozen out new people so long that now their dance numbers
are dwindling.
Martha
On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Kalia Kliban via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hi all,
Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember the rule about
sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. A very competent male dancer I
know who started around the same time I did (late 80s) recently confessed to me that he
never asks anyone to dance because he doesn't want to put folks in the position of
thinking "If I don't dance with this guy then I have to sit one out. Oh crap,
guess I'll have to dance with him." For the record, he's a totally solid and
delightful dancer.
To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been replaced, and what
has it been replaced with? In your dance community, do you have a written statement of
the etiquette around this? Our community's statement doesn't directly address
this issue.
Kalia
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
17 Dec
17 Dec
3 a.m.
On 2017-12-16 1139, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote:
Hi all,
snip
To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either
survived or been
replaced, and what has it been replaced with? In your dance community,
do you have a written statement of the etiquette around this? Our
community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.
Kalia
I'm aware of it the earlier approach. Like Martha I once chose to follow
it and sit one out now and again.
I think it's pretty much died, and across a number of dance forms in my
village, and the local and larger regions here. I couldn't say when,
however it isn't a taught thing, to my knowledge.
I've not seen a written statement, in any social/country dance form in
my village or the major neighbouring one.
When offering an introductory session, typically for Contra or sometimes
for a larger/longer "Community" or ONS event, I cover it at some point.
Rather than talk about it, or model it, I have _everyone_ pattern it.
All I do is state that anyone may ask anyone to dance, that we all have
the freedom to accept or not. I often include that _no_ reason,
excuse/"excuse", explanation, or additional words are necessary, useful
or expected.
Then I give a basic verbal example like,
"Would you like to dance?" "Yes please/thank you."
(depends on my mind that day.)
"Would you like to dance?" "No thank you."
I count to three, we all _loudly_ ask, then we all loudly answer,
accepting. Then I start again and we all ask, then all kindly say no.
Often many are laughing by the time that is done.
Sometimes I've seen the mood, esp. amongst some who may have seemed
concerned (generally), lighten a bit. Usually lots of smiles. Thing is
they've all practised it, and now know that those in the room know this
is an accepted approach. I think that takes a load off some minds, if
not about this then possibly about being there, trying something new.
We're laughing and that eases a number of things in general.
Enough regular dancers participate in the Contra intro session that it's
not only newcomers who hear this, from me. If it's late enough in the
time frame of that others are in the room and hear it as well.
The Me-Too moment:
I've really only had one major instance of a persistent series of
"askings", over one event and from one person at that. I danced a couple
of them. I then chose to say more, thanking them for the attention and
the awareness given me that they thought it fun to dance with me,
however pointing out there were more people than I could possibly dance
with there over that type of dance weekend, and that I too had friends
I'd not dance with if I acquiesced to every request. (We were both
visiting that city.) It wasn't comfortable to say, however the attention
wasn't welcome either.
I think the point was made kindly enough that I wasn't their "ride", to
satisfy them simply out of courtesy. Perhaps this informed me a bit with
respect to my inclusions when teaching. Dunno.
I'm glad of the aspect Alan provided regarding Austenites/Regency. Very
handy to know. It's the kind of thing I might have read and
automatically tempered myself in a contemporary setting without
considering the effect that same reading might have on a
died-in-the-wool fan.
Thank you for the question and the thread. It might prove to be an
interesting and useful one for the SW Dance Organiser list denizens.
Compliments of the season to all.
Cheers, John
--
J.D. Erskine
Victoria, BC
12:30 p.m.
Greetings All,
I really like JD's methods. When teaching I do an abbreviated version of
that, but I think I'll expand it to include a _kind_ refusal, and universal
participation during the lesson.
My husband and I are dance organizers, and for several years have been
working hard to make the atmosphere of the dance welcoming and safe for
all. We have signs in the restrooms about behavior. The one in the women's
states that if one doesn't want to dance with someone, for any reason, it
is best to be quick about it, saying, "No, thank you," so the ask-er has
time to find a different partner. Skip the lengthy excuse, then find a
partner you _want_ to dance with.
Also, at the end of a dance, I often encourage people to invite someone
who's sitting out to dance. Every once in a while I ask new folks to
identify themselves, then ask experienced dancers to dance with them.
-Amy
On Dec 17, 2017 12:01 AM, "JD Erskine via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
On 2017-12-16 1139, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote:
Hi all,
snip
To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
replaced, and what has it been replaced with? In your
dance community,
do you have a written statement of the etiquette around this? Our
community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.
Kalia
I'm aware of it the earlier approach. Like Martha I once chose to follow it
and sit one out now and again.
I think it's pretty much died, and across a number of dance forms in my
village, and the local and larger regions here. I couldn't say when,
however it isn't a taught thing, to my knowledge.
I've not seen a written statement, in any social/country dance form in my
village or the major neighbouring one.
When offering an introductory session, typically for Contra or sometimes
for a larger/longer "Community" or ONS event, I cover it at some point.
Rather than talk about it, or model it, I have _everyone_ pattern it.
All I do is state that anyone may ask anyone to dance, that we all have the
freedom to accept or not. I often include that _no_ reason,
excuse/"excuse", explanation, or additional words are necessary, useful or
expected.
Then I give a basic verbal example like,
"Would you like to dance?" "Yes please/thank you."
(depends on my mind that day.)
"Would you like to dance?" "No thank you."
I count to three, we all _loudly_ ask, then we all loudly answer,
accepting. Then I start again and we all ask, then all kindly say no.
Often many are laughing by the time that is done.
Sometimes I've seen the mood, esp. amongst some who may have seemed
concerned (generally), lighten a bit. Usually lots of smiles. Thing is
they've all practised it, and now know that those in the room know this is
an accepted approach. I think that takes a load off some minds, if not
about this then possibly about being there, trying something new. We're
laughing and that eases a number of things in general.
Enough regular dancers participate in the Contra intro session that it's
not only newcomers who hear this, from me. If it's late enough in the time
frame of that others are in the room and hear it as well.
The Me-Too moment:
I've really only had one major instance of a persistent series of
"askings", over one event and from one person at that. I danced a couple of
them. I then chose to say more, thanking them for the attention and the
awareness given me that they thought it fun to dance with me, however
pointing out there were more people than I could possibly dance with there
over that type of dance weekend, and that I too had friends I'd not dance
with if I acquiesced to every request. (We were both visiting that city.)
It wasn't comfortable to say, however the attention wasn't welcome either.
I think the point was made kindly enough that I wasn't their "ride", to
satisfy them simply out of courtesy. Perhaps this informed me a bit with
respect to my inclusions when teaching. Dunno.
I'm glad of the aspect Alan provided regarding Austenites/Regency. Very
handy to know. It's the kind of thing I might have read and automatically
tempered myself in a contemporary setting without considering the effect
that same reading might have on a died-in-the-wool fan.
Thank you for the question and the thread. It might prove to be an
interesting and useful one for the SW Dance Organiser list denizens.
Compliments of the season to all.
Cheers, John
--
J.D. Erskine
Victoria, BC
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8 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Alan Winston -
Alexandra Deis-Lauby -
Amy Wimmer -
Angela DeCarlis -
JD Erskine -
Kalia Kliban -
Martha Wild