On the contrary.  I think that people will find it difficult to remember which is the lark and which is the raven.   And I don't get this differentiation between "labelling the roles" vs. doing something else.  Larks and ravens are labels too.  I'm just trying to figure out something that is useful for people to be able to remember and something that also can be universal.  Coming up with creative terms is fun but it's also next to impossible to find something that one can agree on.  The corner designations are clearly genderfree and yeah, there are syllables, but I'm sure we can find ways to shorten it (like "firsts" and "seconds").   Andrea also noted the differentiation between place and person:  "In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance.  People mess up, but the place is always there."  I think that is a useful tidbit for people to understand as well.  You know the position, dance with the person in that position regardless of who that person is.  That's useful for both new dancers and experienced dancers.   Perry From: Maia McCormick via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that designation stays with you throughout the dance.  If you switch throughout the dance, then your corner designation may change.  It also has meaning in dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names.  As a matter of fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a raven.   Perry From: Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> To: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>et>; Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position...On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use.  In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal.  In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal.  So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners.  In a swing, first corners end up on the right.  I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place.  Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner".   Perry From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> Cc: "callers(a)sharedweight.net" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling Hey Michael,I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four.   The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it.  It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear.  When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men.  Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff.  What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels.  Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense.  Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance.  People mess up, but the place is always there. AN Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Consider this dance E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. B2 Women allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4).Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on the right)E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. B2 Second corners allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4)This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance.  Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801      217 239 5844 On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick.  I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal.  In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left.  The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances.  Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second.  Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles.  It's a place not a person.  Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine.  If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'.  A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO.Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu> wrote: I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer.   The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways.  Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file.   In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals.  Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square.  However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent).  If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners.  The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference.  First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in.   You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference.  Does that clear it up ? Alan Sent from my iPad On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Andrea, how would you handle the following:1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all?2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star?3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc.4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey.5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate?6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways?None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated.Ron On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra.  I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances.  Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called.  The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender.  Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example.  It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment.  In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions.  But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful.  Simply corner positions works better.  I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last.  I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now.Cheers,Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling.  Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone.    The experiment was a great success.  I received lots of  positive feedback on the evenings dance.  At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them.   One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual.  No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible.  Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free.  If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. Thanks,Jim Hemphill   _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net