On Jan 21, 2016, at 7:35 PM, Janet Bertog via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: I'm not ignoring you guys (well, most of you anyway), I just got busy and I was a bad student again and didn't write down my reference so I will have to find it again. Right now I have glue in my eye, so it will have to wait. I also did not hear any more back from Carol, so I will report on what I did get from her and her colleague later this evening. Not that any of it matters, people have already made up their mind and, in the midwest at least, it sounds like we are going to have people gyrating all over the floor. Janet On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:52 PM, James Saxe &lt;jim.saxe(a)gmail.com <mailto:jim.saxe@gmail.com>> wrote: Alan Winston asked (replying to Janet Bertog): I, too, am curious. I suspect that Alan is asking this question, as I am, more from an interest in the history of dancing and dance terminology than for the purpose of deciding what terminology to use in the future. (To be clear, I believe that both topics--the history and what to do now--are entirely appropriate for this list.) Please supply a reference if you have one. Speaking as someone who claims no formal training or other qualification as a dance historian, but who is nonetheless an interested dabbler in dance history, I think that a genuine 16th-century source using "gip" (or "gyp"/"gipsy"/"gypsy"/ "jib"/,,,) as the name of a dance figure would be quite an interesting find, especially if the source also included some clue about what the term actually meant at that time. On the other hand, a 20th-century description of a dance with a "gip" (or "half gip/gyp/gipsy/..." or "whole gip/...") together with a vague allusion to a dance of the same title having existed in the 16th century wouldn't be so exciting. With a little searching, I turned up various descriptions of Bampton morris dancing that list half gip[/gyp/...] and whole gip as common figures and "Flowers of Edinburgh" as one of the specific dances. Here's just one example: http://www.tvmm.org.uk/Notes/Bampton.htm <http://www.tvmm.org.uk/Notes/Bampton.htm> And here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC2QtfnKrB8 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC2QtfnKrB8> Note the whole gips starting about 1:37. My searching also turned up many references to an RSCDS-style Scottish dance titled "Flowers of Edinburgh." This site http://www.scottish-country-dancing-dictionary.com/video/flowers-of-edinbur… <http://www.scottish-country-dancing-dictionary.com/video/flowers-of-edinburgh.html> has half a dozen videos of the dance being done by different groups, plus an animation and a link to dance instructions. As you can see, this "Flowers of Edinburgh" includes no "gypsy" figure and bears practically no resemblance to the morris dance of the same name except that both are done in some kind of longways set. I also turned English Country Dance versions, including these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48y_4FU9EFU <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48y_4FU9EFU> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWMID3ExAas <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWMID3ExAas> The first one lightly resembles the RSCDS version in that it has a sort of "swing and change" in B2 where the RSCDS version has a poussette. The one version in the second video is yet different. In the absence of further evidence, a 16th-century dance called "Flowers of Edinburgh", if such existed, might, for all I knew, have been wildly different from all the versions I've cited above. On Jan 21, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: That does suggest a tempting etymology for the dance figure. But, as we know, tempting etymologies sometimes turn out to lack support (as, for example, in the case of "a la main" for "allemande"). So, again, if you know of sources from even as late as the 19th century connecting the Welsh "gip", meaning glance/gaze with the similarly named morris dance figure or with "gypsy" as used in ECD and (more recently) contra dancing, please share the details. Again, I'm asking out of historical interest, not making any claim about how the history should or shouldn't affect callers' choices about terminology today. Thanks. --Jim > On Jan 21, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Alan Winston via Callers &lt;callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > > > > On 1/21/16 10:48 AM, Janet Bertog via Callers wrote: >> This was my original suggestion (see discussion in November). Then I found gip in Welsh, which seems to fit better except foe one thing. The earliest dance I can find with a gip/gypsy is Flowers of Edinburg from Scotland in the 1500s (note the date precedes the use of the word Gypsy by the English). It doesn't matter though. To many, the word is a slur in one context to some people and so should not be used, no matter what the origin. >> > > -- Alan > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net <http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net> _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net