11 Apr
2018
11 Apr
'18
1:45 a.m.
On Apr 6, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
wrote:
I recall reading something, possibly from Jim Saxe on
this list (and maybe from Larry Jennings?), about how in most dances without
out-of-minor-set interactions, you come back into the set ... once - after progressing to
the end. But in dances like The Hobbit, where you leave the minor set once, you actually
come back in to the set 3 times. ...
That would have been from me in a message to this list on July 9,
2014 with the subject "An observation about end effects -- becoming
neutral three times at each end".
https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/msg07945.html
Based on the meager response at the time, I fear that few readers
got my point (though it looks like Yoyo was one who did). For the
TL;DR crowd, here's the short version:
In almost every contra with even a simple out-of-minor-set
action, dancers who reach the top or bottom will become
neutral and return to the body of the set not twice but at
least *THREE* different times.
I'm not going to give an example. I think that anyone who picks
a few examples of dances with out-of-minor-set action and actually
takes the trouble to trace the end effects carefully will see, now
that I've pointed it out, that what I've said is true. And anyone
who won't take that trouble to do that probably also wouldn't take
the trouble to study my analysis of an example if I gave one.
In case anyone's wondering about my terminology, I won't try to
give definitions of "out-of-minor-set action" and "neutral" that
cover every unusual situation, but here are some remarks about
common situations that should make my meaning clear:
If you leave your partner to dance with a shadow and then
return to your partner, or if you leave a neighbor to dance
with a future neighbor or a previous neighbor and then return
to the first neighbor, I count that as an out-of-minor-set
action. If a dance merely has you and your partner progress
to new neighbors in the middle of the tune (instead of at the
transition from B2 to A1), and you stay in that new foursome
until the same point in the next round of the dance, then I
don't count it as out-of-minor-set action. I also don't count
merely taking hands in long lines with a shadow or a past or
future neighbor while you still have your partner or your
current neighbor in the other hand.
If dancers are doing something in groups of four, I count any
dancers near the top or bottom to the set who aren't part of
a complete foursome as neutral. This includes the case where
a pair dancers stand still during a diagonal ladies' chain
or a diagonal right and left through because there's nobody
to do it with.
If most of the dancers are doing a two-person figure with
partners, neighbors, or shadows on the sides of the set,
then I count as neutral any dancers at the top or bottom
who are (1) standing still, (2) "dancing with ghosts", or
(3) dancing the figure with someone *across* the set
(possibly a partner or shadow acting as a neighbor).
--Jim
11 Apr
11 Apr
12:18 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?
Jim, maybe the meager response was because you didn't give an example. And what does
"the DL;TR crowd" mean?
Tom
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 10, 2018, at 9:45 PM, jim saxe via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
On Apr 6, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I recall reading something, possibly from Jim Saxe on this list (and maybe from Larry
Jennings?), about how in most dances without out-of-minor-set interactions, you come back
into the set ... once - after progressing to the end. But in dances like The Hobbit, where
you leave the minor set once, you actually come back in to the set 3 times. ...
That would have been from me in a message to this list on July 9,
2014 with the subject "An observation about end effects -- becoming
neutral three times at each end".
https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/msg07945.html
Based on the meager response at the time, I fear that few readers
got my point (though it looks like Yoyo was one who did). For the
TL;DR crowd, here's the short version:
In almost every contra with even a simple out-of-minor-set
action, dancers who reach the top or bottom will become
neutral and return to the body of the set not twice but at
least *THREE* different times.
I'm not going to give an example. I think that anyone who picks
a few examples of dances with out-of-minor-set action and actually
takes the trouble to trace the end effects carefully will see, now
that I've pointed it out, that what I've said is true. And anyone
who won't take that trouble to do that probably also wouldn't take
the trouble to study my analysis of an example if I gave one.
In case anyone's wondering about my terminology, I won't try to
give definitions of "out-of-minor-set action" and "neutral" that
cover every unusual situation, but here are some remarks about
common situations that should make my meaning clear:
If you leave your partner to dance with a shadow and then
return to your partner, or if you leave a neighbor to dance
with a future neighbor or a previous neighbor and then return
to the first neighbor, I count that as an out-of-minor-set
action. If a dance merely has you and your partner progress
to new neighbors in the middle of the tune (instead of at the
transition from B2 to A1), and you stay in that new foursome
until the same point in the next round of the dance, then I
don't count it as out-of-minor-set action. I also don't count
merely taking hands in long lines with a shadow or a past or
future neighbor while you still have your partner or your
current neighbor in the other hand.
If dancers are doing something in groups of four, I count any
dancers near the top or bottom to the set who aren't part of
a complete foursome as neutral. This includes the case where
a pair dancers stand still during a diagonal ladies' chain
or a diagonal right and left through because there's nobody
to do it with.
If most of the dancers are doing a two-person figure with
partners, neighbors, or shadows on the sides of the set,
then I count as neutral any dancers at the top or bottom
who are (1) standing still, (2) "dancing with ghosts", or
(3) dancing the figure with someone *across* the set
(possibly a partner or shadow acting as a neighbor).
--Jim
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6:37 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?
On Apr 11, 2018, at 5:18 AM, Tom Hinds <twhinds(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
Jim, maybe the meager response was because you
didn't give an example. And what does "the DL;TR crowd" mean?
I didn't give an explicit example in my 2014 message
https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/msg07945.html
but I did go into more detail about the general pattern than in my
recent posting. And I fear that as a result some people glanced
at my message, decided it was too long, and didn't read it.
(TL;DR = "too long; didn't read".) In our current thread, Yoyo
pointed out that "The Hobbit" is an example, and he identified
the three different points where neutral dancers reenter the set.
A simpler example is "Lisa's Contra", mentioned earlier in this
thread by Mark Hillegonds. Here, with a little reformatting, is
how Mark notated it:
Lisa’s Contra
by Tom Hinds
Contra/Improper/Int
A1 -----------
(16) Neighbor B & S
A2 -----------
(4,4) Pass thru to a wave, Wave balance
(2,4,2) Walk forward to person in next wave
(don't take hands), Gypsy R 1/2, Walk back
to re-form original wave, but facing opposite
direction (N in RH, Gents LH)
B1 -----------
(4,4) Wave balance, Gents alle L 1/2
(8) Partner swing
B2 -----------
(6,2) Circle L 3/4, Pass thru up and down
(8) Next Neighbor do si do
[For Tom's original notation and notes, see page 15 of his book
_Bad Hair Decade_.]
This dance includes just one out-of-minor-set action: In the
A2 part, you briefly leave your current neighbors to gypsy (or
"walk around" or whatever you want to call it) with your previous
neighbor. The result is that when you get to the top or bottom
of the line, you experience THREE pairs of transitions out and
back in, as follows:
* In B2 of some round of the dance, you pass through up or
down and the here's no new neighbor to dance with.
[So this is the first time you go out.]
* In A2 of the next round, you briefly come back in [for
the first time] to g**** your previous neighbor.
* Then you immediately go back out [for the second time].
* In B2, a new neighbor approaches and you come in [2nd
time] starting with the do-si-do.
* In A2 of the next round, you step forward from your
wave and there's no old neighbor coming toward you
along the line. [You've just gone out for the third
time.] You could dance around a "ghost" or you could
treat your partner (across the set) as a neighbor.
* Then you return to a new wave with the neighbors you
just briefly left. [That's the third time you come
back in. You now remain in until you get to the
other end of the set or the music stops.]
I could give other examples, but really all you need to do is
pick almost any dance where you go out of your minor set (to
dance with a previous neighbor, future neighbor, or shadow)
and then return. If you analyze the end effects carefully,
you'll usually find that dancers go out (become neutral) and
come back in at least three times. It's actually harder to
find examples where they go out and come back in exactly
twice.
Often, the thing to do in order to come back in in the right
position is so obvious to experienced contra dancers that
we hardly notice there's a decision to be made. We just do
the obvious/habitual thing and it turns out to be right. I
think that's part of the reason that the commonness of the
(out-in)x3 pattern could go unnoticed for so long by so many
people. I don't know of anyone who wrote about it before I
noticed it in 2013 (if anyone does, please tell me). And by
then I must have experienced it myself hundreds of times, if
not a thousand or more in 30+ years of dancing, without
really noticing.
--Jim
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2 comments
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Tom Hinds