17 Dec
2015
17 Dec
'15
5:29 a.m.
Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"
Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
the place of the person who was holding my right hand.
If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which
direction
to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
all). Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
but means something completely different.
I never say "as in Petronella". The move is well enough established in
contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens. If
there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
everything works fine from then on.
And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
expect people not to do it! :-)
Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon. Star. Ladies' Chain,
Allemande, Dosido are all jargon. Would you try calling a contra dance
without using any of those words?
But none of those words are well defined. Star can mean wrist-lock or
hands-across depending on the next move. Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
across and back depending on which century you are in. Allemande means
completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
in a different part of America a century ago.
I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
"Allemande". I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
around me. That is what #1 meant by "Allemande". I thought this very
strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!
Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean. But they
teach their dancers what they mean and then it works. Some calls get
standardised and are easy to use across communities. Others take time to
settle down and may never be universally used. But if jargon allows a group
of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!
Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
17 Dec
17 Dec
9:50 a.m.
New subject: [Callers] As in Petronella
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, John Sweeney via Callers wrote:
Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
Note that MWSD is not completely standardized -- it's more like the C
programming language with areas that are ill-defined, or at least which
only extremely nitpicky people know how to do correctly. An example
someone told me about last night:
Given a right-handed ocean wave with girls in the center, call "girls
U-turn back and Roll". What should be the result? (Side note:
reviewing the definition right now, I think the person I was talking with
had the wrong answer, but it's ambiguous.)
Therefore, competent callers consider stuff like that to be either
avoided or workshopped if you want to do them (the latter being just
like contra).
An interesting point that mostly only MWSD callers are aware of: the
CALLERLAB Applications Review Committee uses the terms "proper" and
"improper" rather than "right"/"wrong" or
"legal"/"illegal" because they
have zero power to enforce their decisions.
CALLERLAB also has "Standard Application" documents for Basic through
Plus, they tell you which formations/arrangements are more likely to
succeed/fail for any given call.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
10:42 a.m.
New subject: [Callers] As in Petronella
Hear, hear, John. I agree with you. I’ve heard this move called "petronella
turn" at least since the late 80s and, as you do, just call it as such, and teach
where necessary, without a reference to the original dance. Why bother? Most dancers don’t
know the original dance - now if I were teaching the original dance I might say this is
where this move came from, but otherwise that information is just unnecessary verbiage
that no one is listening to and doesn’t help in the teaching. If I were calling a medley
without teaching, saying "petronella turn" would get the job done as that’s what
the dancers here all know, and balance and spin would confuse utterly, for the reasons you
mentioned. What is wrong with using “mad robin” and “petronella”? It’s not as if we have
200 different calls people need to know to do contra - these have been in use regularly
for many years now and I don’t quite understand what the fuss is all about.
Also, as for “mad robin” not being the same as the ECD version - well, yes and no. What we
do is “double mad robin” and that does exist in ECD, though I’m not sure how old the usage
is. Contra just doesn’t use the single version, so I suppose we dropped the “double”
designation.
Martha
On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:29 AM, John Sweeney via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"
Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
the place of the person who was holding my right hand.
If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which
direction
to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
all). Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
but means something completely different.
I never say "as in Petronella". The move is well enough established in
contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens. If
there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
everything works fine from then on.
And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
expect people not to do it! :-)
Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon. Star. Ladies' Chain,
Allemande, Dosido are all jargon. Would you try calling a contra dance
without using any of those words?
But none of those words are well defined. Star can mean wrist-lock or
hands-across depending on the next move. Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
across and back depending on which century you are in. Allemande means
completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
in a different part of America a century ago.
I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
"Allemande". I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
around me. That is what #1 meant by "Allemande". I thought this very
strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!
Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean. But they
teach their dancers what they mean and then it works. Some calls get
standardised and are easy to use across communities. Others take time to
settle down and may never be universally used. But if jargon allows a group
of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!
Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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12:36 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] As in Petronella
Umm...Aahz, I think you missed the point about standardization in contra
versus MWSD.
Yes: technically there are poorly understood and detailed applications in
squares that are not clearly defined, and in contras some of us discuss the
terminology we want to use. But Callerlab prints definitions and
rulebooks; CDSS does not.
A and B aren't really analogous in any meaningful way.
:-)
Neal Schlein
On Dec 17, 2015 8:50 AM, "Aahz Maruch via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, John Sweeney via Callers wrote:
Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is
another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions
about MWSD :-)
Note that MWSD is not completely standardized -- it's more like the C
programming language with areas that are ill-defined, or at least which
only extremely nitpicky people know how to do correctly. An example
someone told me about last night:
Given a right-handed ocean wave with girls in the center, call "girls
U-turn back and Roll". What should be the result? (Side note:
reviewing the definition right now, I think the person I was talking with
had the wrong answer, but it's ambiguous.)
Therefore, competent callers consider stuff like that to be either
avoided or workshopped if you want to do them (the latter being just
like contra).
An interesting point that mostly only MWSD callers are aware of: the
CALLERLAB Applications Review Committee uses the terms "proper" and
"improper" rather than "right"/"wrong" or
"legal"/"illegal" because they
have zero power to enforce their decisions.
CALLERLAB also has "Standard Application" documents for Basic through
Plus, they tell you which formations/arrangements are more likely to
succeed/fail for any given call.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
2:27 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] As in Petronella
Martha --
I believe "Double Mad Robin" in ECD is a reimportation from contra of
the contra-style Mad Robin.
-- Alan
On 12/17/15 7:42 AM, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
Hear, hear, John. I agree with you. I’ve heard this
move called "petronella turn" at least since the late 80s and, as you do, just
call it as such, and teach where necessary, without a reference to the original dance. Why
bother? Most dancers don’t know the original dance - now if I were teaching the original
dance I might say this is where this move came from, but otherwise that information is
just unnecessary verbiage that no one is listening to and doesn’t help in the teaching. If
I were calling a medley without teaching, saying "petronella turn" would get the
job done as that’s what the dancers here all know, and balance and spin would confuse
utterly, for the reasons you mentioned. What is wrong with using “mad robin” and
“petronella”? It’s not as if we have 200 different calls people need to know to do contra
- these have been in use regularly for many years now and I don’t quite understand what
the fuss is all about.
Also, as for “mad robin” not being the same as the ECD version - well, yes and no. What
we do is “double mad robin” and that does exist in ECD, though I’m not sure how old the
usage is. Contra just doesn’t use the single version, so I suppose we dropped the “double”
designation.
Martha
On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:29 AM, John Sweeney via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"
Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
the place of the person who was holding my right hand.
If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which
direction
to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
all). Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
but means something completely different.
I never say "as in Petronella". The move is well enough established in
contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens. If
there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
everything works fine from then on.
And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
expect people not to do it! :-)
Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon. Star. Ladies' Chain,
Allemande, Dosido are all jargon. Would you try calling a contra dance
without using any of those words?
But none of those words are well defined. Star can mean wrist-lock or
hands-across depending on the next move. Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
across and back depending on which century you are in. Allemande means
completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
in a different part of America a century ago.
I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
"Allemande". I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
around me. That is what #1 meant by "Allemande". I thought this very
strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!
Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean. But they
teach their dancers what they mean and then it works. Some calls get
standardised and are easy to use across communities. Others take time to
settle down and may never be universally used. But if jargon allows a group
of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!
Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
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3:07 p.m.
New subject: [Callers] As in Petronella
Ah, the chicken or the egg issue….
Martha
On Dec 17, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Alan Winston via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Martha --
I believe "Double Mad Robin" in ECD is a reimportation from contra of the
contra-style Mad Robin.
-- Alan
On 12/17/15 7:42 AM, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
Hear, hear, John. I agree with you. I’ve heard
this move called "petronella turn" at least since the late 80s and, as you do,
just call it as such, and teach where necessary, without a reference to the original
dance. Why bother? Most dancers don’t know the original dance - now if I were teaching the
original dance I might say this is where this move came from, but otherwise that
information is just unnecessary verbiage that no one is listening to and doesn’t help in
the teaching. If I were calling a medley without teaching, saying "petronella
turn" would get the job done as that’s what the dancers here all know, and balance
and spin would confuse utterly, for the reasons you mentioned. What is wrong with using
“mad robin” and “petronella”? It’s not as if we have 200 different calls people need to
know to do contra - these have been in use regularly for many years now and I don’t quite
understand what the fuss is all about.
Also, as for “mad robin” not being the same as the ECD version - well, yes and no. What
we do is “double mad robin” and that does exist in ECD, though I’m not sure how old the
usage is. Contra just doesn’t use the single version, so I suppose we dropped the “double”
designation.
Martha
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Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:29 AM, John Sweeney via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"
Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
the place of the person who was holding my right hand.
If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which
direction
to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
all). Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
but means something completely different.
I never say "as in Petronella". The move is well enough established in
contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens. If
there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
everything works fine from then on.
And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
expect people not to do it! :-)
Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon. Star. Ladies' Chain,
Allemande, Dosido are all jargon. Would you try calling a contra dance
without using any of those words?
But none of those words are well defined. Star can mean wrist-lock or
hands-across depending on the next move. Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
across and back depending on which century you are in. Allemande means
completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
in a different part of America a century ago.
I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
"Allemande". I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
around me. That is what #1 meant by "Allemande". I thought this very
strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!
Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean. But they
teach their dancers what they mean and then it works. Some calls get
standardised and are easy to use across communities. Others take time to
settle down and may never be universally used. But if jargon allows a group
of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!
Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
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http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
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5 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Aahz Maruch via Callers -
Alan Winston via Callers
-
John Sweeney via Callers
-
Martha Wild via Callers
-
Neal Schlein via Callers