Hi Andrea, I think Angela was well-spoken and polite. This discussion, like ones before it, was started not about endorsing new terms for all contras. It started discussing terms for communities who *do* want alternative role terms. Who are we to tell a community that their need for their dancers is wrong? If I don't like a community's needs or values, I don't have to call there. If there's a Shared Weight topic about how to best serve French speaking communities (like Montreal), I'm not going to chime in and argue that all contra has to be in English or the dancers will get confused. Montreal dancers want calls in French. JP, Brooklyn, Bay area, etc etc dancers want callers genderfree. Now, I realize Angela's comments could be construed as off-topic, but I read them as a reply to other folks here who were off-topic. I read them as an attempt to reach out and provide insight and perspective of *why* genderfree dance communities have made the choice they have. No, they may not be the choice your community wants, and that's your right. To answer your question, though, about how many dancers want genderfree terms, at least ten dances are genderfree, and I bet we can poll those dances and find out how many active dancers they have. While the Western Mass one by me is a little low, dances like Brooklyn, Portland Maine, and Montpelier second Saturday boast very large crowds, and that's just ones I've personally attended. There's queer dance camps, too. Clearly there's a demand. I realize "huge" is a relative number, but we can safely agree on several thousand dancers as a safe low estimate of dancers who want gender free roles. These genderfree dances exist, some for 39 years, they've grown tremendously in the last 5 years *while many traditional dances are losing attendance*. And then there's the problem with selection bias. If the question is "How many dancers would prefer gender free role terms?" and the source of data is only dances with gendered role terms, of course we'd be excluding all of the dances who don't come because of the terms. I call at both genderfree and traditional dances. Seriously, I do not understand this pushback we are getting for discussion of role terms for *genderfree* dances. This isn't some existential threat to non-genderfree traditional dances. Let us talk. Thanks, Ron Blechner On Jan 27, 2017 10:51 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Really Angela? Huge numbers are offended by "gents/ladies"? I'll happily call with whatever the community uses, though I may avoid a community using lead/follow as I think it perniciously encourages passivity in half the dancers, which I object to. And I was vocal in earlier discussions about positional calling being a preferable alternative. (Alan, I'll get back to you about short calls). But where are the stats? I believe there may be some objectors. And some who support them. But vast numbers? Clear majority? Don't see it. I'm willing to be wrong, but I call all over the country and have not seen this. -Andrea Sent from my external brain On Jan 27, 2017, at 9:04 AM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: For what it's worth, "Larks" and "Ravens" were terms designed to correlate with "Left" and "Right". There are plenty of moves we do in contra with names that have nothing to do with anything. Like "Swat the Flea," or even "Chain". Head over to Square Dancing, and the vernacular is so huge that plenty of the names for moves fail to describe the exact movements in question. Here's the thing, y'all: a huge number of dancers feel alienated by gendered terms. This is the same issue seen in major politics with regards to gendered restrooms: many people (gay, straight, and otherwise) don't feel comfortable or happy being forced into a dichotomous gender binary when, in actuality, many of us exist somewhere between two points in a spectrum. [1] Notably, it's different to feel "offended" than to feel "unwelcome." Many of you claim to feel the former, but that's a privilege compared to feeling unwelcome or even shunned from a community. And many people are fine with things the way they are! I get that, and that's great for you, but why on earth wouldn't you change things if it meant being more inclusive, more just? If you're a dancer who's afraid that things will be more confusing for you...try dancing at a genderfree dance! Not only have I found that the dancers at those dances are not any more confused than at regular dance series, I've found them more competent, and *happier*. They have this amazing ability to embrace the unexpected and smile and dance with whoever's coming at them. I've seen first-time dancers dancing together and accidentally switching roles every time through the dance, *and nobody told them they were doing it wrong. *They just danced with them, and it was great! In short, *they are better dancers*. And since most of us here are callers: Yes, it's on us to put in a bit more work. I've now called using Jets/Rubies and Bands/Bares, and while I prefer the former set, neither was impossibly challenging. Neither was as difficult as walking through a new dance for the first time. If you care for the health of our shared community, I implore you to do the work. Read the materials, especially the research that Ron, Jeff, and others have linked to here. Investigate the politics around gender and genderfree restrooms. Try dancing or even calling for a genderfree series. Thank you all so much for taking the time to participate in this conversation and for taking the energy to consider both sides. I'll look forward to seeing you all on the dance floor. Angela [1] http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/11/breaking-through-the- binary-gender-explained-using-continuums/#sthash.M8yxvCQ1.dpbs On Jan 27, 2017 3:08 AM, "Jim Hemphill via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net&gt; wrote: Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net