On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 4:59 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Stephen,I assure you that at Hotlanta, DC Lambda, and the conventions I've attended, people are not in traditional garb, but in shorts and T-shirts, just like in contra. And you bet we sweat. It has not impacted the use of the hold.AndreaSent from my iPhone> On May 21, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Stephen via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>> The forearm turn works well in MWSD because men wear long-sleeved shirts. Don’t know about you, but with short sleeved Ts typically worn by men in contra dancing, I’d hate to get a load of sweat on my arm , especially up and down the line with the all-too-frequent gents (or larks) allemand left once and a half.>> Sent from my iPhone>>> On May 21, 2019, at 4:07 PM, callers-request@lists.sharedweight.net wrote:>>>> Send Callers mailing list submissions to>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific>> than "Re: Contents of Callers digest...">>>>>> Today's Topics:>>>> 1. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Richard Fischer)>> 2. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Rich Sbardella)>> 3. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Don Veino)>> 4. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Rich Sbardella)>> 5. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Erik Hoffman)>> 6. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Andrea Nettleton)>> 7. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney)>> 8. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Folk Dance)>> 9. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney)>> 10. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Andrea Nettleton)>> 11. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney)>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------->>>> Message: 1>> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:58:41 -0400>> From: Richard Fischer <richardallenfischer@verizon.net>>> To: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl@bellsouth.net>>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID: <52479A7C-5587-493A-8B69-F85F8519BE71@verizon.net>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> Andrea, could you describe the forearm allemande? I don't think I've seen it and can't quite picture it. Or maybe send a link to a video that shows it?>>>> Of possible interest to some, one of the scenes portrayed on the Shield of Achilles in the Iliad shows youths and maidens dancing, "holding their hands on one another's wrists.">>>> With best wishes,>>>> Richard Fischer>> Princeton, NJ>>>>> On May 18, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>>>>> Hi all,>>> I?m going to add a controversial note. I also loathe the many poor allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken wing, what have you. As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande for arm turns. Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I was like, wut??? But it?s a position which save everyone?s hands and wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the chicken wing almost impossible. I started using it for dances with revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection. I was so pleased I began using them elsewhere. People generally go along with it. I have been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes. I know it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put it out there.>>>>>> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande. I demonstrate and emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base of the opposite?s thumb, flat wrist. And I always add that the thumb itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so leave it loose. Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to make a 2 person unit that turns on a post. I?m sure everyone on this list has similar teaches.>>> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now. I suspect it?s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm hold instead.>>> My 2c,>>> Andrea N>>> Arlington VA>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone>>>>>>> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:>>>>>>>> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and the like.>>>>>>>> I?ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, ?If Allemande Left, Where?d Allemande Go??>>>>>>>> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand?and I think all of us should remove that word, ?grip? from our caller?s vocabulary?>>>>>>>> But the most important thing I discussed is:>>>> Our Wrist is Strongest When It?s Straight>>>> Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved>>>> Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved fingers and a straight wrist.>>>>>>>> Lately I?ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and flat palm method. The almost always makes one person?s wrist uncomfortable. Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite uncomfortable.>>>>>>>> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand connections.>>>>>>>> ~Erik Hoffman,>>>> Oakland, CA>>>>>>>> From: Callers <callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net>> On Behalf Of John Sweeney via Callers>>>> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM>>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Name that Dance>>>>>>>> Hi Rich,>>>> I would just call it a ?Big Set Mixer?. It is a slight variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual. Callers just make up a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.>>>>>>>> While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to do better hand/arm turns and swings :-)>>>>>>>> Happy dancing,>>>> John>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com <mailto:john@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html <http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html> for Live Music Ceilidhs>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ <https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/>>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ <https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/>>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 2>> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 19:22:08 -0400>> From: Rich Sbardella <richsbardella@gmail.com>>> To: Richard Fischer <richardallenfischer@verizon.net>>> Cc: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl@bellsouth.net>, "Caller's>> discussion list" <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID:>> <CAE4Buj+QHsNHa=0DBSOfnDwWQ2MtVz5a5XT7cY59k5R22zoQaQ@mail.gmail.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> Here is a link with a square dance using the forearm allemande at 30>> seconds in. As a dancer and caller in both worlds, I prefer the contra>> allemande over the forearm allemande. It is easier ti give weight and I>> would suspect it is faster going 1-1/2.>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 6:58 PM Richard Fischer via Callers <>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>>>> Andrea, could you describe the forearm allemande? I don't think I've seen>>> it and can't quite picture it. Or maybe send a link to a video that shows>>> it?>>>>>> Of possible interest to some, one of the scenes portrayed on the Shield of>>> Achilles in the Iliad shows youths and maidens dancing, "holding their>>> hands on one another's wrists.">>>>>> With best wishes,>>>>>> Richard Fischer>>> Princeton, NJ>>>>>> On May 18, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <>>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>>>>> Hi all,>>> I?m going to add a controversial note. I also loathe the many poor>>> allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken>>> wing, what have you. As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande>>> for arm turns. Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I>>> was like, wut??? But it?s a position which save everyone?s hands and>>> wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the>>> chicken wing almost impossible. I started using it for dances with>>> revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and>>> necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection. I was so pleased I>>> began using them elsewhere. People generally go along with it. I have>>> been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes. I know>>> it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put>>> it out there.>>>>>> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande. I demonstrate and>>> emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base>>> of the opposite?s thumb, flat wrist. And I always add that the thumb>>> itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so>>> leave it loose. Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to>>> make a 2 person unit that turns on a post. I?m sure everyone on this list>>> has similar teaches.>>> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now.>>> I suspect it?s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm>>> hold instead.>>> My 2c,>>> Andrea N>>> Arlington VA>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone>>>>>> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <>>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>>>>> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and>>> the like.>>>>>> I?ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion>>> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly>>> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of>>> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus>>> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called,>>> ?If Allemande Left, Where?d Allemande Go??>>>>>> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand?and I think all of us>>> should remove that word, ?grip? from our caller?s vocabulary?>>>>>> But the most important thing I discussed is:>>>>>> - Our Wrist is Strongest When It?s Straight>>> - Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved>>> - Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with>>> curved fingers and a straight wrist.>>>>>>>>> Lately I?ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and>>> flat palm method. The almost always makes one person?s wrist uncomfortable.>>> Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that>>> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite>>> uncomfortable.>>>>>> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip,>>> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand>>> connections.>>>>>> ~Erik Hoffman,>>> Oakland, CA>>>>>> *From:* Callers <callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net> *On Behalf Of *John>>> Sweeney via Callers>>> *Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM>>> *To:* 'Caller's discussion list' <callers@sharedweight.net>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Name that Dance>>>>>> Hi Rich,>>> I would just call it a ?Big Set Mixer?. It is a slight>>> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual. Callers just make up>>> a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.>>>>>> While it is a good example of all ages having fun together,>>> I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to>>> do better hand/arm turns and swings :-)>>>>>> Happy dancing,>>> John>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802>>> 940 574>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music>>> Ceilidhs>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent>>>>>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 3>> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 20:19:15 -0400>> From: Don Veino <sharedweight_net@veino.com>>> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID:>> <CAAJTtiKj-hoo6kwzQb0k9=nAkcHvZRn5__buTVTigYPj+SR3Jw@mail.gmail.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 4>> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 20:33:51 -0400>> From: Rich Sbardella <richsbardella@gmail.com>>> To: Don Veino <sharedweight_net@veino.com>>> Cc: "Caller's discussion list" <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID:>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> Don,>> That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD.>> No skin too skin.>> Rich>>>> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers <>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>>>> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 5>> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 05:50:44 +0000>> From: Erik Hoffman <erik@erikhoffman.com>>> To: Rich Sbardella <richsbardella@gmail.com>, Don Veino>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID:>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> Yes, sweaty men?s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women?s arms? Glowing!>>>>>>>>>> From: Callers <callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net> On Behalf Of Rich Sbardella via Callers>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM>> To: Don Veino <sharedweight_net@veino.com>>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>>>> Don,>> That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD.>> No skin too skin.>> Rich>>>> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:>> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!>> _______________________________________________>> List Name: Callers mailing list>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 6>> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 04:28:55 -0400>> From: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl@bellsouth.net>>> To: Erik Hoffman <erik@erikhoffman.com>>> Cc: Rich Sbardella <richsbardella@gmail.com>, Don Veino>> <sharedweight_net@veino.com>, Caller's discussion list>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID: <40A1CAFE-3DF7-4D44-B7AF-2A3BEB67DAB4@bellsouth.net>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> Hi all,>> I think that particular video is a poor example of what forearm turns can be. I can?t deny the potential for sweat, but, confession, my hands sweat like crazy anyway, and I seem to collect plenty of other people?s sweat in swings and courtesy turns, as it is.>> I disagree about weight. The difference is that the connection puts less stress on joints and therefore feels lighter, but is, in fact, tighter. At contra dances, doing a traditional allemande, where according to Rich we should find it easy to give weight, instead there?s a panoply of styles of mangling hands wrists and shoulders, flexing or flopping elbows, which result in all too few actually satisfying and well weighted allemandes, regardless of role danced. If it were easy for that allemande to be well executed and well weighted, wouldn?t it more generally be so? Wouldn?t there be fewer defensive variants?>> The forearm turn is almost impossible to mess up, with fewer joints involved, and even when less weight is applied, is firm and close enough to result in timely movement. Whatever else can be said about it, it does not permit wide spacing between bodies, and people do automatically bend their elbows to something like the appropriate angle. There only being one angle to adjust makes it easier to fine tune, in my opinion.>> Richard Fisher requested, I think, a description. To be as accurate as possible I asked my partner, who, like me, has been a long time contra and English dancer, as well as a MWSD dancer. (I have always danced at gay clubs, which, I understand may be zestier than average?, and he is a MIT Tech squares alum, which, being a college club, may also dance with higher energy than the club in the video) to simply give me a MWSD forearm as if we were about to, for example, swing thru. He gave me what I expected, and what I consider good form: full hand and fingers solidly on the meaty inside of my forearm, which let me do the same, forming a flat wristed, full hand through forearm connection for both of us. Instead of a W, you get more like a \__/ look. The outsides of the fingers are to a wall, the insides pushing at the forearm, like we pressure the hand in a traditional hold. It feels more like the whole arm is involved to me, less muscle action needed, only enough to maintain the ar>> m position. We varied in how we held our digits, I had mine more open, he kept his flat, either way it functions like a mitt. Both of us used our palms to make the primary connection, fingers lighter. As in any allemande, the elbow and shoulder firm up to complete the connection. It can be very zippy indeed!>> I?m still searching for a clear example in video form. I?ll let you all know if I find one from sources I have access to.>>>> FWIW, I am exhausted from the last few years of the community arguing about words and terms. So I?m leery of us picking yet another thing to get exercised over. If anyone truly gets near perfect results from their teach of a trad allemande, I will adopt their words on the spot. Otherwise I?ll continue to see the leas than desirable quality of allemandes experienced as a pitfall of the hold itself combined with the usual humans being human, each with individual understandings, abilities, etc leading to highly variable execution, rather than a consequence of sub par teaching.>> Peace everyone.>> Andrea>>>> Sent from my iPhone>>>>> On May 21, 2019, at 1:50 AM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>>>>> Yes, sweaty men?s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women?s arms? Glowing!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Callers <callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net> On Behalf Of Rich Sbardella via Callers>>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM>>> To: Don Veino <sharedweight_net@veino.com>>>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers@sharedweight.net>>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>>>>>> Don,>>> That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD.>>> No skin too skin.>>> Rich>>>>>> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 7>> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:19:19 +0100>> From: "John Sweeney" <john@modernjive.com>>> To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID: <002b01d50fb6$45358ea0$cfa0abe0$@modernjive.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see discussion on this important topic.>>>>>>>> There are two very different forearm holds.>>>>>>>> *** In front of the elbow ***:>>>> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:>>>> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally around the other.?>>>>>>>> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).>>>>>>>> I don?t like this one. Sorry.>>>>>>>> The connection is not as good as it could be.>>>> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s arm.>>>> It provides the opportunity to grip hard.>>>> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper arm. This can be uncomfortable.>>>>>>>> The one I do like is:>>>>>>>> *** Behind the elbow ***:>>>> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical.>>>>>>>> This is a great connection.>>>> There is no need to grip.>>>> You are close together so that you can turn really well.>>>> It is very effective for 1.5 turns.>>>> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced.>>>> It can be achieved instantaneously.>>>> There is little opportunity to mess it up.>>>>>>>> You can see it being used in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo>>>> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the right (two ladies - one in grey).>>>>>>>> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer).>>>>>>>> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style.>>>>>>>> Try them and see what you think.>>>>>>>> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!)>>>>>>>> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I still love it.)>>>>>>>> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.)>>>>>>>> Happy dancing,>>>> John>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent>>>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs>>>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 8>> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:11:53 +0100>> From: Folk Dance <ceilidh.caller.bob@gmail.com>>> To: John Sweeney <john@modernjive.com>>> Cc: "Caller's discussion list" <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID:>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the>> increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that>> thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows!>>>> However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of>> disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some>> awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would>> be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly>> vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference.>>>> I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a>> clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option?>>>> Bob>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers <>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>>>> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see>>> discussion on this important topic.>>>>>>>>>>>> There are two very different forearm holds.>>>>>>>>>>>> *** In front of the elbow ***:>>>>>> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:>>>>>> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint.>>> Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with>>> whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of>>> the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is>>> moving equally around the other.?>>>>>>>>>>>> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t like this one. Sorry.>>>>>>>>>>>> The connection is not as good as it could be.>>>>>> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s>>> arm.>>>>>> It provides the opportunity to grip hard.>>>>>> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb>>> and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper>>> arm. This can be uncomfortable.>>>>>>>>>>>> The one I do like is:>>>>>>>>>>>> *** Behind the elbow ***:>>>>>> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms>>> together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above>>> the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical.>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a great connection.>>>>>> There is no need to grip.>>>>>> You are close together so that you can turn really well.>>>>>> It is very effective for 1.5 turns.>>>>>> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced.>>>>>> It can be achieved instantaneously.>>>>>> There is little opportunity to mess it up.>>>>>>>>>>>> You can see it being used in this video:>>>>>> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the>>> right (two ladies - one in grey).>>>>>>>>>>>> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip>>> the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t>>> pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer).>>>>>>>>>>>> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style.>>>>>>>>>>>> Try them and see what you think.>>>>>>>>>>>> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the>>> caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands>>> underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!)>>>>>>>>>>>> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years>>> in Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now>>> and I still love it.)>>>>>>>>>>>> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.)>>>>>>>>>>>> Happy dancing,>>>>>> John>>>>>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802>>> 940 574>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music>>> Ceilidhs>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent>>>>>>>>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 9>> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:46:55 +0100>> From: "John Sweeney" <john@modernjive.com>>> To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID: <005001d50fca$e3e4f0e0$abaed2a0$@modernjive.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves!>>>>>>>> Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down Palm-to-Palm hand holds. As are Swing Thrus. As Callerlab says, ?All hands are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight pressure to assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be utilized rather than pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly from one turn to the other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the line.? (Sadly very few of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to have understood this; they do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level and Grand Right & Left instead of Swing Thru!)>>>>>>>> I don?t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold in the moves that I use it for. But it certainly doesn?t give the ability to spin out of it. The standard contra Allemande is much better if you want to spin out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners. If only we could find a way to get people to do it better?>>>>>>>> Happy dancing,>>>> John>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent>>>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Folk Dance <ceilidh.caller.bob@gmail.com>>> Sent: 21 May 2019 12:12>> To: John Sweeney <john@modernjive.com>>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>>>>>>>> I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows!>>>>>>>> However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference.>>>>>>>> I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option?>>>>>>>> Bob>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > wrote:>>>> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see discussion on this important topic.>>>>>>>> There are two very different forearm holds.>>>>>>>> *** In front of the elbow ***:>>>> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:>>>> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally around the other.?>>>>>>>> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).>>>>>>>> I don?t like this one. Sorry.>>>>>>>> The connection is not as good as it could be.>>>> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s arm.>>>> It provides the opportunity to grip hard.>>>> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper arm. This can be uncomfortable.>>>>>>>> The one I do like is:>>>>>>>> *** Behind the elbow ***:>>>> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical.>>>>>>>> This is a great connection.>>>> There is no need to grip.>>>> You are close together so that you can turn really well.>>>> It is very effective for 1.5 turns.>>>> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced.>>>> It can be achieved instantaneously.>>>> There is little opportunity to mess it up.>>>>>>>> You can see it being used in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo>>>> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the right (two ladies - one in grey).>>>>>>>> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer).>>>>>>>> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style.>>>>>>>> Try them and see what you think.>>>>>>>> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!)>>>>>>>> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I still love it.)>>>>>>>> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.)>>>>>>>> Happy dancing,>>>> John>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com <mailto:john@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent>>>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>> List Name: Callers mailing list>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 10>> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 09:50:34 -0400>> From: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl@bellsouth.net>>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID: <ED001484-B47C-4463-998B-1C9201BCF5C1@bellsouth.net>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> I think thumb pressure, even finger ?pressure? has to be avoided and it?s avoidance taught thoroughly no matter the hold. I once had nerve pain for weeks after a cupped elbow hold in which that nerve going into the front inside of the elbow was deeply squashed by a zealously gripping digit, I think thumb. The non universality and also the too close to my bust fingers (both asthe hand enters and if any jostling occurs) make me dislike that cupped elbow hold very much, totally besides that nerve pinch I had. The forearm is taught explicitly as not a grip and I think it works fine for every turn I?ve attempted. Rory o mores and box circulates, not being turns, would be taught using a W arm, fingertip connection or however we want to cast that.>> I too want to hear how the flat palm to palm could even work and how it is motivated.>> Also, while we have extolled the virtues of forearm and elbow cup, or even the old hold, I haven?t heard anyone deny how often it fails, with wrists twisted and shoulders and elbows straining, fingers squished, tender parts of hands hurt, and/or weight utterly missing or arm wrestle level. Above all I?m waiting for someone to say they have a way to teach it that truly prevents these many evils. I can?t get behind it whole heartedly, however theoretically universal, until we have that.>> Andrea>>>> Sent from my iPhone>>>>> On May 21, 2019, at 7:46 AM, John Sweeney via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>>>>> The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves!>>>>>> Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down Palm-to-Palm hand holds. As are Swing Thrus. As Callerlab says, ?All hands are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight pressure to assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be utilized rather than pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly from one turn to the other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the line.? (Sadly very few of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to have understood this; they do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level and Grand Right & Left instead of Swing Thru!)>>>>>> I don?t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold in the moves that I use it for. But it certainly doesn?t give the ability to spin out of it. The standard contra Allemande is much better if you want to spin out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners. If only we could find a way to get people to do it better?>>>>>> Happy dancing,>>> John>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent>>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs>>>>>>>>> From: Folk Dance <ceilidh.caller.bob@gmail.com>>>> Sent: 21 May 2019 12:12>>> To: John Sweeney <john@modernjive.com>>>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers@sharedweight.net>>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>>>>>> I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows!>>>>>> However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference.>>>>>> I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option?>>>>>> Bob>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:>>> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see discussion on this important topic.>>>>>> There are two very different forearm holds.>>>>>> *** In front of the elbow ***:>>> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:>>> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally around the other.?>>>>>> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).>>>>>> I don?t like this one. Sorry.>>>>>> The connection is not as good as it could be.>>> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s arm.>>> It provides the opportunity to grip hard.>>> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper arm. This can be uncomfortable.>>>>>> The one I do like is:>>>>>> *** Behind the elbow ***:>>> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical.>>>>>> This is a great connection.>>> There is no need to grip.>>> You are close together so that you can turn really well.>>> It is very effective for 1.5 turns.>>> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced.>>> It can be achieved instantaneously.>>> There is little opportunity to mess it up.>>>>>> You can see it being used in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo>>> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the right (two ladies - one in grey).>>>>>> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer).>>>>>> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style.>>>>>> Try them and see what you think.>>>>>> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!)>>>>>> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I still love it.)>>>>>> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.)>>>>>> Happy dancing,>>> John>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent>>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs>>>>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>> _______________________________________________>>> List Name: Callers mailing list>>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Message: 11>> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 18:31:22 +0100>> From: "John Sweeney" <john@modernjive.com>>> To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <callers@sharedweight.net>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety>> Message-ID: <001901d50ffb$025a06c0$070e1440$@modernjive.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8">>>> Hi Andrea,>>>> Absolutely. All moves should be taught explicitly as not a grip.>>>>>>>> Amazing! There is always something new to learn. I have been dancing the cupped elbow hold for over 50 years, and taught it to literally thousands of dancers. I have never heard about there being a challenge regarding bust contact. I checked with my wife and she has never encountered it either.>>>>>>>> Just to clarify: I was not suggesting in any way that either forearm hold should be used in modern American contra dancing. I was just clarifying the various version of the move in response to someone?s query about what the hold is.>>>>>>>> The cupped elbow hold definitely has its place in various parts of the wonderful spectrum of traditional/folk/country/contra dancing.>>>>>>>> I would only ever suggest it as an option in contra dancing if someone had an injury and didn?t want to use the standard contra Allemande hold. It could also be offered in self-defence, instead of the fist-to-fist ?hold?, when encountering someone in the line that you know is likely to hurt you.>>>>>>>> The standard contra Allemande hold is undoubtedly here to stay. It is by far the best option for moves like Rory O?More and Swing Thru, and it is established across the world as the way to do a modern American contra dance Allemande.>>>>>>>> So, all we can try to do is improve people?s technique.>>>>>>>> Quite often a new caller will learn how to call a dance, get up in front of an experienced crowd, walk through the dance calling the moves, then call the dance, calling all the right words at the right time, and relying on the experienced dancers to help the beginners through the dance. The dance works. The caller will then consider themself to be a contra dance caller, without ever having actually taught anything at all.>>>>>>>> In the UK the EFDSS changed the name of the person holding the microphone from ?teacher? to ?caller? some time in the 1950s.>>>>>>>> I feel that very few modern callers realise that teaching is part of the job.>>>>>>>> We callers are the only ones who can improve the dancers? technique. I just wish that all callers realised this and took responsibility for it. It only takes a few seconds during each walk-through to drop a pearl of wisdom into the mix. It doesn?t take long to say one of these:>>>>>>>> Allemande: It?s not arm-wrestling - if your hand moves towards you, you lose!>>>>>>>> Allemande: Make a good connection then relax - your muscles are for fighting centrifugal force, not your partner.>>>>>>>> Allemande 1.5: Keep your hands mid-way between you with nice W-shaped arms and take bigger steps.>>>>>>>> Circle Left 3/4; Pass Through: It?s six steps for the circle and two to pass through - don?t be late for your new neighbour.>>>>>>>> Swing: Plan the end of the move so your are both facing the right way on time.>>>>>> Wrist-Lock Stars: Make sure your thumb is on top with your fingers so that you can?t grip.>>>>>>>> Etc.>>>>>>>> I have often though of putting a poster at the door saying, ?Leave your thumbs at the door!?>>>>>>>> Maybe we could all share our favourite teaching phrases and make a database of them to encourage all callers to do some teaching.>>>>>>>> Happy dancing,>>>> John>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent>>>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs>>>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> ------------------------------>>>> Subject: Digest Footer>>>> _______________________________________________>> Callers mailing list>>>>>> ------------------------------>>>> End of Callers Digest, Vol 61, Issue 9>> **************************************>> _______________________________________________> List Name: Callers mailing list> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net_______________________________________________List Name: Callers mailing listList Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net