<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">I think thumb pressure, even finger “pressure” has to be avoided and it’s avoidance taught thoroughly no matter the hold. I once had nerve pain for weeks after a cupped elbow hold in which that nerve going into the front inside of the elbow was deeply squashed by a zealously gripping digit, I think thumb. The non universality and also the too close to my bust fingers (both asthe hand enters and if any jostling occurs) make me dislike that cupped elbow hold very much, totally besides that nerve pinch I had. The forearm is taught explicitly as not a grip and I think it works fine for every turn I’ve attempted. Rory o mores and box circulates, not being turns, would be taught using a W arm, fingertip connection or however we want to cast that. <div>I too want to hear how the flat palm to palm could even work and how it is motivated.</div><div>Also, while we have extolled the virtues of forearm and elbow cup, or even the old hold, I haven’t heard anyone deny how often it fails, with wrists twisted and shoulders and elbows straining, fingers squished, tender parts of hands hurt, and/or weight utterly missing or arm wrestle level. Above all I’m waiting for someone to say they have a way to teach it that truly prevents these many evils. I can’t get behind it whole heartedly, however theoretically universal, until we have that. </div><div>Andrea<br><br><div id="AppleMailSignature" dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br>On May 21, 2019, at 7:46 AM, John Sweeney via Callers <<a href="mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net">callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down Palm-to-Palm hand holds. As are Swing Thrus. As Callerlab says, “All hands are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight pressure to assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be utilized rather than pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly from one turn to the other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the line.” (Sadly very few of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to have understood this; they do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level and Grand Right & Left instead of Swing Thru!)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I don’t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold in the moves that I use it for. But it certainly doesn’t give the ability to spin out of it. The standard contra Allemande is much better if you want to spin out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners. If only we could find a way to get people to do it better…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> Happy dancing, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> John <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">John Sweeney, Dancer, England <a href="mailto:john@modernjive.com">john@modernjive.com</a> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html">http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html</a> for Live Music Ceilidhs <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.contrafusion.co.uk">http://www.contrafusion.co.uk</a> for Dancing in Kent</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.modernjive.com">http://www.modernjive.com</a> for Modern Jive DVDs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Folk Dance <<a href="mailto:ceilidh.caller.bob@gmail.com">ceilidh.caller.bob@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> 21 May 2019 12:12<br><b>To:</b> John Sweeney <<a href="mailto:john@modernjive.com">john@modernjive.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Caller's discussion list <<a href="mailto:callers@sharedweight.net">callers@sharedweight.net</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows!<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Bob<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers <<a href="mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net">callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hmm… I seem to have stirred up a hornet’s nest! It is great to see discussion on this important topic.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">There are two very different forearm holds.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">*** In front of the elbow ***:<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">“Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally around the other.”<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I don’t like this one. Sorry.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The connection is not as good as it could be.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person’s arm.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">It provides the opportunity to grip hard.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person’s upper arm. This can be uncomfortable.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The one I do like is:<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">*** Behind the elbow ***:<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms together. Place your curved hand behind your partner’s forearm, just above the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">This is a great connection.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">There is no need to grip.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">You are close together so that you can turn really well.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">It is very effective for 1.5 turns.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">It can be achieved instantaneously.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">There is little opportunity to mess it up.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">You can see it being used in this video: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the right (two ladies - one in grey).<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don’t pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer).<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Try them and see what you think.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">(P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!)<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">(P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I still love it.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">(P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> Happy dancing, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> John </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">John Sweeney, Dancer, England <a href="mailto:john@modernjive.com" target="_blank">john@modernjive.com</a> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html" target="_blank">http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html</a> for Live Music Ceilidhs </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.contrafusion.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.contrafusion.co.uk</a> for Dancing in Kent</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.modernjive.com" target="_blank">http://www.modernjive.com</a> for Modern Jive DVDs</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>List Name: Callers mailing list<br>List Address: <a href="mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net" target="_blank">Callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a><br>Archives: <a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>List Name: Callers mailing list</span><br><span>List Address: <a href="mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net">Callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a></span><br><span>Archives: <a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/">https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>