Rich,
I'm not clear why Woody's question is directed to me. And I see he's indicating that's this long involved conversation about terminology is related to creating a callerlab for contra. I'm not clear on his thinking so I suppose I'll have to hear from him before honestly responding
This fear of having a contralab (which I believe actually exists or existed for western contra) has caused some concern for many of us for years. Back in 2011 I wrote a booklet on contra choreography and included a couple of pages on why that simply couldn't happen. If I have the time I'll send it to y'all.
Tom HInds
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 30, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Rich Sbardella <richsbardella(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As a member of Callerlab for 25 years, I can answer Woody's question with a definitive "NO".
>
> Callerlab does offer many benefits, but it has its drawbacks as well. Standardization was supposed to be a good thing, and perhaps in the MWSD world that is more good than bad, but it also diminishes the regional differences of dance, and limits the expression and flexibilities of callers. There is also an organization called ContraLab, and thankfully its reach is limited.
>
> Rich Sbardella
> Stafford, CT
>
>
>
>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> Woody, I really don't understand your question. Please connect the dots.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Woody Lane via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Tom,
>> >
>> > Earlier this year in Eugene, a caller was struggling with trying to be extra careful with alternative terms for gypsy. She referred to the "g-word" and then tried using other terms. She was actually trying to demonstrate something else on the floor. The crowd said in a friendly way but very clearly -- we don't care, just use the word "gypsy"! And then she did, people relaxed, and the evening progressed smoothly.
>> >
>> > The intensity and animus of these conversations may have unintended long-term consequences in the contra dance world. Does anyone really want to establish the contra equivalent of Callerlab?
>> >
>> > Woody
>> >
>> >> On 3/28/2018 11:58 AM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
>> >> I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and others not participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to give up? My memory is that this incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.
>> >> Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email: It may be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent. Here in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue. In other areas perhaps that's not the case. On the English list people are reminded that folks from many countries are members and that we should keep this in mind.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > List Name: Callers mailing list
>> > List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
Ron,
I keep on reading your writing and see that you often give only partial information. What you write below is interesting:
> In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.
My own preference is for you to give more information and not let us fill in the pieces. For instance in the areas that you list above, was there a decline in attendance while callers were using calls like gypsy and other words like men and women? If attendance did in fact dip, did it in fact pick up again when alternative words were used? Might be cause and effect or a correlation or simply coincidence.
If attendance in these areas have always been strong then perhaps there is something else at work.
Ive always expected contra dance to die simply because that's the way it works. Come on! Does anyone need me to spell this out? If you don't believe me, Mr Spock, in one of the Star Trek movies once said, "all things must end" and I think he's pretty smart!
Ron, I must also ask you about what you wrote below. It's not perfectly clear and of course nobody is named but my take is that some of us (or me?)have ruined your party by not going along with what you and others want? Perhaps I don't understand. Would you please care to explain?
> In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice, and there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young thing" to "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the tradition, but also reduces the objectification of women.
What does throwing shade mean? Does it mean that the sun was shining on you and that someone blocked the sun? I'm afraid my college degree is from an applied institution so I'd appreciate it if you could keep it simple for me in the future.
I've had very good conversations with Rich on and off the discussion group and feel that he shares many of my values. Would you rather that I and others not participate? Perhaps that is the primary reason that some of us aren't comfortable with PC. Where does it end and what freedoms am I going to have to give up? My memory is that this incredible discussion started with a complaint from ONE person.
Lastly let me suggest this after reading Jeffrey's very good email: It may be that terms like gypsy (and of course others) are location dependent. Here in Charlottesville and perhaps DC people don't really care for the gypsy issue. In other areas perhaps that's not the case. On the English list people are reminded that folks from many countries are members and that we should keep this in mind.
You want fries with that?
Tom
Thanks for the suggestion. The rule was sent to me days befor the gig and it took my mind a good long while to process and work through it. The organizer knows my concerns.
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Yoyo Zhou <yozhov(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> Here was my issue, briefly : I was told to use "walk around" when calling at glen echo. It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
>
> Here is an opportunity to say to the organizers, "I understand your intent is to avoid certain language, but your proposed substitute doesn't work for me because I use 'walk around' to mean something else. I would prefer to use [such and such] or another alternative to avoid confusion. Does that work for your community?" This is a conversation between you and the organizers, which will ideally result in clearer communication at the dance itself. But if they don't want to budge, then you've hopefully communicated that their rigidness is hindering you from presenting a good program. After all, we're here to serve the dancers.
>
> Thanks,
> Yoyo Zhou
>
Some of you may have known Susan Moffett, who was a dancer and a caller and
a musician (and an artist and a mother and a wife and a friend and a
professor and a teacher in the truest sense). She danced and called dances
in Louisville and the surrounding region.
She was consistently positive and supportive, a great communicator who
modeled so many things for me as a caller and as a human.
Her celebration of life will include both a service and, of course, a
dance, on Saturday, May 19 in Louisville. (Service at 4:30, dance at 8:00).
https://m.legacy.com/obituaries/louisville/obituary.aspx?n=susan-phillips-m…
--Jerome
Jerome Grisanti
660-528-0858
http://www.jeromegrisanti.com
"Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power
and magic in it." --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
I'm certainly well aware of issues that confront those people you listed and others.
I'm hoping you'll share your homework with us off line as you suggested.
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 29, 2018, at 6:36 PM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks.
>
> I'm really not the person ultimately who should be listened to. Marginalized dancers are the people we all should be listening to. Folks who are LGBTQ, people of color, people with disabilities, Romany, etc. I've done my homework, and I've made my choices about what to support.
>
> Ron
>
>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 5:14 PM Tom Hinds <twhinds(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Ron I apologize for saying that. It was not necessary.
>>
>> If you'll still speak to me i want you to know that Donna has said exactly what I was thinking. So I would be interested in seeing what you have to say.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Mar 29, 2018, at 3:01 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Really don't appreciate name calling on this list.
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 7:22 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> Thanks Dave!
>>>> I too have that reaction whenever a caller brings up controversy about terminology.
>>>>
>>>> On the flip side, when an older caller tries to adapt pronouns and such without making a big deal of it, it’s awesome, even when they make mistakes.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Here was my issue, briefly : I was told to use "walk around" when calling at glen echo. It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has happened on two occasions when I have mixed up square dance calls from one time period into another or from one tradition to another and have confused the dancers a tad and made them think perhaps I'm an idiot.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as gypsy is concerned I'd use ANY call as a substitute but not walk around out of fear of saying the wrong thing by habit. Perhaps it's remote that it would happen but I'm going to avoid looking liking an idiot at all costs!
>>>>>
>>>>> Being given that rule by the organizer made my planning for that dance a nightmare. Do I use dances without gypsies? I mean it really through a wrench into the way I usually plan because to follow their rule and protect myself I'd have to eliminate far too many good dances to keep from using gypsy.
>>>>>
>>>>> And there are more rules that I have to follow or address that I'd rather not, like leaving a couple out at the top when the music ends.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as being sarcastic NO I'm not that kind of person. I simply thought Ron was being a bully so I wanted to know where he stood. There are a number of us out there that associate PC with a threat to our freedoms and I'm not a conservative. Sure I can look up things on the computer and you think I'm being sarcastic because I didn't, but we're different. I hate computers and only use them when I have to. I value clear communication and if you carefully read my email you'll see that's what I was asking for. On several of Ron's emails I see there are a good number of dots that weren't being connected so I wondered what was going on.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as my attitude at Glen Echo is concerned you are reading into it. If you want to continue this perhaps just between us is the best way. And here we go, Tom is confused again. Why are you replying for Ron?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>>>>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>>>>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>>>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Ron I apologize for saying that. It was not necessary.
If you'll still speak to me i want you to know that Donna has said exactly what I was thinking. So I would be interested in seeing what you have to say.
Tom
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 29, 2018, at 3:01 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Really don't appreciate name calling on this list.
>
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 7:22 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> Thanks Dave!
>> I too have that reaction whenever a caller brings up controversy about terminology.
>>
>> On the flip side, when an older caller tries to adapt pronouns and such without making a big deal of it, it’s awesome, even when they make mistakes.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Here was my issue, briefly : I was told to use "walk around" when calling at glen echo. It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
>>>
>>> It has happened on two occasions when I have mixed up square dance calls from one time period into another or from one tradition to another and have confused the dancers a tad and made them think perhaps I'm an idiot.
>>>
>>> As far as gypsy is concerned I'd use ANY call as a substitute but not walk around out of fear of saying the wrong thing by habit. Perhaps it's remote that it would happen but I'm going to avoid looking liking an idiot at all costs!
>>>
>>> Being given that rule by the organizer made my planning for that dance a nightmare. Do I use dances without gypsies? I mean it really through a wrench into the way I usually plan because to follow their rule and protect myself I'd have to eliminate far too many good dances to keep from using gypsy.
>>>
>>> And there are more rules that I have to follow or address that I'd rather not, like leaving a couple out at the top when the music ends.
>>>
>>> As far as being sarcastic NO I'm not that kind of person. I simply thought Ron was being a bully so I wanted to know where he stood. There are a number of us out there that associate PC with a threat to our freedoms and I'm not a conservative. Sure I can look up things on the computer and you think I'm being sarcastic because I didn't, but we're different. I hate computers and only use them when I have to. I value clear communication and if you carefully read my email you'll see that's what I was asking for. On several of Ron's emails I see there are a good number of dots that weren't being connected so I wondered what was going on.
>>>
>>> As far as my attitude at Glen Echo is concerned you are reading into it. If you want to continue this perhaps just between us is the best way. And here we go, Tom is confused again. Why are you replying for Ron?
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>> _______________________________________________
>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Here was my issue, briefly : I was told to use "walk around" when calling at glen echo. It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
It has happened on two occasions when I have mixed up square dance calls from one time period into another or from one tradition to another and have confused the dancers a tad and made them think perhaps I'm an idiot.
As far as gypsy is concerned I'd use ANY call as a substitute but not walk around out of fear of saying the wrong thing by habit. Perhaps it's remote that it would happen but I'm going to avoid looking liking an idiot at all costs!
Being given that rule by the organizer made my planning for that dance a nightmare. Do I use dances without gypsies? I mean it really through a wrench into the way I usually plan because to follow their rule and protect myself I'd have to eliminate far too many good dances to keep from using gypsy.
And there are more rules that I have to follow or address that I'd rather not, like leaving a couple out at the top when the music ends.
As far as being sarcastic NO I'm not that kind of person. I simply thought Ron was being a bully so I wanted to know where he stood. There are a number of us out there that associate PC with a threat to our freedoms and I'm not a conservative. Sure I can look up things on the computer and you think I'm being sarcastic because I didn't, but we're different. I hate computers and only use them when I have to. I value clear communication and if you carefully read my email you'll see that's what I was asking for. On several of Ron's emails I see there are a good number of dots that weren't being connected so I wondered what was going on.
As far as my attitude at Glen Echo is concerned you are reading into it. If you want to continue this perhaps just between us is the best way. And here we go, Tom is confused again. Why are you replying for Ron?
Tom
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>> _______________________________________________
>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Ron: Would you please be more specific? There's not enough information here for me to understand what you're claiming, nor to clarify it, and I find it frustrating and misleading in it's generality.
I'm going to assume that you not only mean callers in these areas but are also speaking of dances in these specific areas. New England covers several states and has lots of dances. New York? City or State? How many dances in Seattle and the Bay Area? How many is "several"? And "these dances are thriving amidst a decline..."? Without details I cannot support your claims.
In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.
Donna Hunt
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: Jeffrey Spero <jeff(a)syncopaths.com>
Cc: callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Wed, Mar 28, 2018 12:47 pm
Subject: Re: [Callers] Politically Correct?
Hi Jeff,
I think your understanding of there being "no to little movement" is inaccurate.
In New England, New York, Seattle, and the Bay Area, many callers have been examining terminology and changing. Several dance series have gone genderfree without being specifically chartered as LGBTQ dances. Not coincidentally, these dances are thriving amidst a decline of attendance of contra in general.
Many dances are also taking up safety policies before and after the #metoo movement, despite plenty of resistance for years of some people insisting that contra is a happy place where there's no harassment.
So yes, you're correct that these discussions have been happening for years, true, but they have also been producing tangible change in many places.
...
I might also like to disagree with your implication that everyone is responsible for "arguing about it". We callers who have swapped terms for g*pay, for example, have long since moved on.
In the case of this original post, Rich was asking for practical advice, and there *was no* argument until a couple choice people started throwing shade at those of us who think changing the lyrics from "she was a young thing" to "she was a young girl" is an easy swap that doesn't diminish the tradition, but also reduces the objectification of women.
In dance,
Ron Blechner
> at http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
It's a Mailman listserver, so one may set a subscribed account to what
we once knew as NOMAIL.
A subscriber may log in and do it themselves. It's reasonably
straightforward.
Use the "change your subscription options" thingy at the foot of that
page. Once logged in, use the first Value (on the grey background)
titled "Mail delivery". Set to Disabled. Scroll down and Submit My Changes.
Alternatively one may beg (on or probably better off-list) for an
administrator or moderator to do so. Usually promising extended fealty,
first or last born, or a pint, or something. At least great appreciation.
I admin a number of these.
Cheers, John
--
J.D. Erskine
Victoria, BC
Hi Sharedweight,
I would like to take a time out from Shareweight. Could you please remove my email address from the forum. My name is Joe De Paolo and my email is jsphdep(a)aol.com
Thank you,
Joe
