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Re: [Callers] Does a 1/2 figure 8 and cast off exist in ECD? In Contra?

by John Sweeney

Hi Luke, I am not sure why you are calling it a Half Figure Eight. Unless I have misunderstood something, you just have the ladies crossing the set, going around each other instead of straight across, while the men move out of the way. Since the active dancers don't go around a gatepost (person or position) then it doesn't seem to be a Figure Eight sort of move. I call that move a Bombast (Headcorn Morris use it and call it that and I thought it would make a nice dance figure for us). In this version of the move, instead of the men casting they move straight to their destination, then turn (the turns aren't full turns - just until you can see your next destination); the ladies turn as well at their destination. I also have the move along the set instead of your version across the set. The dances below are more ECDish dances, but may help clarify the idea. The "Turn Single Changing Places" starts as a Gypsy Right, but once you are past each other you keep turning to face away - I often call it a Spin Past. Bombast I (by John Sweeney) Longways; Improper A1: Bombast: Men go straight across to the Ladies’ places WHILE Ladies Gypsy Right 1/2 to Men’s Places; All Turn Single Ladies go straight across to the Men’s places WHILE Men Gypsy Right 1/2 to Ladies’ Places; All Turn Single A2: Repeat B1: Set to Partner, Turn Single Changing Places [End facing out] Lines Lead Away; Fall Back [Face In at last moment] B2: Balance the Ring; Ladies Cross; Balance the Ring; Men Cross Bombast II (by John Sweeney) Longways; Improper A1: Bombast: Men go straight across to the Ladies’ places WHILE Ladies Gypsy Right 1/2 to Men’s Places; All Turn Single Ladies go straight across to the Men’s places WHILE Men Gypsy Right 1/2 to Ladies’ Places; All Turn Single A2: Set to Partner, Turn Single Changing Places [End facing out] Lines Lead Away; Fall Back [Face In at last moment] B1: Long Lines Go Forward & Back – Men Roll the Ladies from Right to Left as you Fall Back Mad Robin – Men through the Middle B2: Long Lines Go Forward & Back – Ladies Roll the Men from Right to Left as you Fall Back Mad Robin – Ladies through the Middle Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

6 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Circles, Crazy Circles

by Paul Wilde

Rich, Twilight Deliverance (DI): no circles, has both N & P Sw. A-1 N-S LL F&B A-2 Star L 3/4 (Gent turns over R Sh for) P-S B-1 Gents start 1/2 hey (L sh) Gents chain B-2 Bal & Pet 2X (on 2nd turn 1/2 extra to swing new N) To end dance: Bal & Pet 1X, P-S Yours in dance, Paul Prov RI

6 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Circles, Crazy Circles

by Colin Hume

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:23:02 -0400, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote: > Re: g&t -- that's totally fair, and an experience I've had on the floor as well, but oh man when it's done right it's > lovely! Maybe worth spending some time teaching the right way to do it from the mic? In my experience, a lot of callers teach Give and Take wrongly. They do it with long lines going forward, whereas you should be going forward with one person in a shoulder-waist hold. That makes it much more satisfying - in addition to the resistance, of course. Colin Hume

6 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Does a 1/2 figure 8 and cast off exist in ECD? In Contra?

by Alan Winston

Luke -- This isn't directly responsive to your actual question, but here's what it reminded me of: In proper duple formation, the place where same-sex neighbors would stand in improper formation is diagonally opposite. Most longways English dances are proper, so in English for these purposes, English "first corners" = contra "ladies", English second corners = contra gents. In "News From Tripoli", first corners cast up or down the outside (pulling the shoulder back, a real cast) while their same-side neighbors slide (just move sideways along the line) into the places they've vacated, then do a full figure eight and finish in their neighbors place. (Now second corner people are standing in first corner places, and they repet the figure doing what the first corner people did; everybody's at home.) In Barbarini's Tambourine (and Sally in Our Alley, which has the same A parts), first corners cast around neighbor on the side, half figure eight, and finish in each other's place. Second corners cast around (it's their partner, but standing next to them on the side), half figure eight, finish in each other's place. In some 1700s dances as reconstructed, in a duple minor proper formation, 1s half -figure eight to the right (gents down, ladies up) to go through the 2s next to them; those 1s encounter the opposite-role 1 from the next set up (it's not quite a shadow interaction since while you do see the same person for a while, it stops happening when one of you goes out at the end of the set), so it's effectively long diagonals. In a number of dances (Kelsterne Gardens may be the earliest, although some like to do it in Childgrove, which is an earlier dance) there are double figure eights, where one couple is is crossing through the middle while the other couple is going up or down the outside. In fewer dances, there are double half figure eights; one couple goes through the middle, the other on the outside. So you don't need the diagonal half-figure to not have to worry about them running into each other. I would add to Michael's mention of Chevrons that a lot of people have trouble waiting one bar to start their part of the figure, and it does raise the difficulty level of the dance. There's an "all cast one place" in "Wa is Me, Wa Mun I Do", which takes two bars of triple time music and a fair amount of room but is very pretty in context. I think your "gents pull left should back and cast" has some of the logistical problems of an orbit (it's a quarter orbit) as far as using space, with increased chance of collision with gent from other set because of not facing the way you're going for the first half. Slide across, orbit 1/4 while making a point of interlacing with other gent, or lots of room in the set. -- Alan On 7/10/18 5:18 AM, Luke Donforth via Callers wrote: > Hello all, > > I've been thinking about half figure eights, and variations on them. > Is anyone familiar (in ECD, contra, or other traditions), where > instead of the 1s or 2s half figure eight, having the gents or ladies > do the move from improper formation? > > As soon as you have something like the ladies do a half figure eight > from duple improper; they're either going to have to shift where they > land, or the gents are going to have to get out of the way. It seems > to me (during my insomnia, not with actual dancers in a house party) > that you could have the gents cast off and over to a ladies place. i.e.: > > /Ladies half figure eight, passing left shoulder in the middle to take > neighbor gents' place > / > /Meanwhile, gents cast over left shoulder to take partner's place > / > > Which takes > (head of hall) > W1 M1 > m2 w2 > > to > (head of hall) > M1 W1 > w2 m2 > > Which ends in the same place as everybody doing a half figure eight, > but without 4 people trying to go through the middle at the same time. > I think it can still happen in 8 beats of music, with nobody standing > around. > > Is that a sequence people have danced or used? > > Here's a wrapping to put the whole thing in context. > > Calliope's Cross > Improper contra by Luke Donforth > A1 > Long lines forward and back > Ladies half figure eight, passing left shoulder in the middle to take > neighbor gents' place > Meanwhile, gents cast over left shoulder to take partner's place > A2 > Neighbor Right Shoulder Gyre and Swing > B1 > Circle Left 3/4 > Partner Swing > B2 > Promenade across set with partner, courtesy turn > Ladies chain to neighbor > > The name, and idea, comes from my older daughter (4), who wanted a > "Calliope's Cross" dance for herself after hearing about "Tamlin's > Cross" for her sister. Calliope like riding figure 8s on her bicycle. > > I've deliberately kept this simple, instead of trying to get a gents > figure 8 while ladies cast in for symmetry. I'm not sure how I'd teach > that from the stage; and think I'd have to use a demo. > > I look forward to hearing the experience of the group! > Thanks > > -- > Luke Donforth > Luke.Donforth(a)gmail.com <mailto:Luke.Donev@gmail.com> > > > _______________________________________________ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

6 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Does a 1/2 figure 8 and cast off exist in ECD? In Contra?

by Michael Dyck

On 2018-07-10 11:46 AM, Luke Donforth wrote: > > I'm not sure about prompting it as an all cast, since that implies the > ladies facing back in after the move, and then casting out again. I was > envisioning more of a swoop wide, I was too! For me, that qualifies as a "cast". See, e.g. https://round.soc.srcf.net/dances/elements#Cast which indicates that you don't have to turn up + out if you're already facing out or down. Or consider https://round.soc.srcf.net/dances/elements#Cross%20and%20Cast where it doesn't say to face back in between the 'cross' and the 'cast'. Mind you, that's ECD. I'm not sure what (if anything) a non-ECD contra crowd would infer from the term "cast". (It *could* work to have the ladies turn back in after the corner-crossing, but only if there's time, which there typically wouldn't be in a contra dance. Maybe an ECD to a slowish 3/4 tempo.) Anyhow, the best wording will depend on what the dancers are used to, but my guess is that you'll get better results by breaking the figure into a corner trade + all move ccw rather than a half figure eight variant. -Michael

6 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Does a 1/2 figure 8 and cast off exist in ECD? In Contra?

by Michael Dyck

On 2018-07-10 08:18 AM, Luke Donforth via Callers wrote: > Hello all, > > I've been thinking about half figure eights, and variations on them. Is > anyone familiar (in ECD, contra, or other traditions), where instead of the > 1s or 2s half figure eight, having the gents or ladies do the move from > improper formation? Normally, for a half figure eight (HFE), the 4 dancers start at roughly the corners of a square, and the dancers from one 'side' start by crossing through the dancers on the opposite 'side', e.g. twos HFE up (through the ones) or (from a proper set) men HFE across (through the women) Your variation is to have the moving dancers start from *diagonal* corners. For dancers familiar with HFE, I think the first reaction might be: you've got your calls mixed up, the women aren't in the correct positions to do an HFE. Once you convince them that this is intended, the next question might be: should the women move as if for an HFE *across* or an HFE *along*? > As soon as you have something like the ladies do a half figure eight from > duple improper; they're either going to have to shift where they land, or > the gents are going to have to get out of the way. It seems to me (during my > insomnia, not with actual dancers in a house party) that you could have the > gents cast off and over to a ladies place. i.e.: > > /Ladies half figure eight, passing left shoulder in the middle to take > neighbor gents' place/ (Presumably you mean their *partner* gent's place. They *could* go to the neighbor gent's place, but then you'd want them passing *right* in the middle, and the gents casting over *right* shoulder to *neighbor*'s place, to avoid collisions.) > /Meanwhile, gents cast over left shoulder to take partner's place/ This sounds like a nice figure, but my recommendation is: don't use the phrase "half figure eight". Instead, you could say something like: Ladies trade places, passing left shoulder, then *all* cast one place counterclockwise around the set. This has the gents wait a few beats before starting their cast, which your original didn't, but I think it's better to have all the casts synchronized. In an ECD setting, if you wanted to get fancy, you could have the gents do an on-the-spot figure while the women cross, like a set or turn single. <aside> Your figure reminds me of the figure "chevron" (which is mainly ECD but is infiltrating contra), the main difference being that in a chevron, the diagonal-crossers walk straight backwards into their final place rather than casting there. There are also variations re whether they back along or across, and whether the others cast in the same direction as the backing-up or the opposite direction. E.g., Victor Skowronski's "Companions" has: diagonals back *across* + others cast *same* direction. Fried de Metz Herman's "Mylecharane" has: diagonals back *along* + others cast *opposite* direction. I'm not sure there's a dance with back *along* + cast *same*, which would be the combination closest to your figure. </aside> -Michael

6 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Circles, Crazy Circles

by Rich Sbardella

Hello Maia, I do a short teach of the give & take more often than not, and most G&Ts in my collection are with partners. Interesting point about partners. Linda Leslie once advised me to use a neighbor rollaway as my first rollaway of the evening, She noted how unsatisfying it is to have to roll a partner away repeatedly, who just never gets it. Peace, Rich On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Maia McCormick <maia.mcc(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Re: g&t -- that's totally fair, and an experience I've had on the floor as > well, but oh man when it's done right it's lovely! Maybe worth spending > some time teaching the right way to do it from the mic? (This is something > I might do myself the next time I call one, come to think of it.) Another > option: select for dances with a g&t *with partner* (rather than with > neighbor) so couples can adjust to each other refine their resistance, > playfulness, etc. rather than starting from square zero with a new N every > time. Might make for a more satisfying experience. Just a thought. > > Cheers, > Maia > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Thanks Luke, >> You made some great points, and offer some good choices. >> My experience as a dancer is the Give & Take is rarely satisfying. >> Seldom is there any resistance, or playfulness, as intended by Jennings. >> I try not to call more than one G&T in an evening. >> Peace, Rich >> >> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Luke Donforth <luke.donev(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Lots of great dances already suggested. >>> >>> Talking about the bigger picture programming thing, I hear wanting to >>> change the feel and not have circles in every dance. While Give and Take >>> might feel like a cheat to you, it will feel different for the dancers, and >>> it's probably not egregious. >>> >>> You can also add a fair bit of texture with just different results from >>> the circle. A swing ->circle & swing transition is going to feel different >>> than a circle into a chain, or a circle left to a circle right, etc. I >>> think two no-circle dances in a half is a good thing to shoot for, but also >>> showing the various ways the circle can be used. >>> >>> A lot of 4x4 dances don't use circles, so if your crowds are up for (and >>> large enough) for those, they can get you there and add other program >>> texture. >>> >>> As for specific dances that haven't been mentioned yet, here are some >>> with 10+ calls from my box: >>> Marion's Delight by Carol Kopp >>> A turn for the better by Bill Pope >>> Friday Night Fever by Tony Parks >>> Rocket City Romp by Cis Hinkle >>> iFlirt by Luke Donforth >>> 2nd Course by Luke Donforth >>> A Sure Thing by Chris Page (has Circle Right) >>> Treasure of the Sierra Madre by James Hutson (no N swing) >>> Amherst and Wooster by Chris Weiler (no N swing) >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 8:16 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers < >>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Helo Folks, >>>> >>>> This group has been so quiet lately. The group has been so important >>>> for me as I developed my Contra calling repertoire and skills, so I thought >>>> I'd initiate a conversation. >>>> >>>> As I sit here programming a dance I realize that I do not have many >>>> dances without circles. Many that I do have, do not have a Neighbor Swing, >>>> or have a Give & Take to cheat it out. Those factors limit where and when >>>> I can use them. >>>> >>>> I generally like to program two no circle dances in each half, and also >>>> a NO neighbor Swing dance in at least one half if not both halves of an >>>> evening. Any thoughts on this? >>>> >>>> Does anyone want to share some modern contras that have no Circles and >>>> no Give & Takes, but include a partner and neighbor swing. >>>> >>>> Here are a few I have used. >>>> >>>> Just for NEFFA, Linda Leslie >>>> Rollin' and Tumblin'. Cis Hinkle >>>> Rocket City Romp, Cis Hinkle >>>> Travels with Rick and Kim, Shari Miller Johnson >>>> Friday Night Fever, Tony Parkes >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Rich Sbardella >>>> Stafford, CT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Luke Donforth >>> Luke.Donforth(a)gmail.com <Luke.Donev(a)gmail.com> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> >> >

6 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Circles, Crazy Circles

by Maia McCormick

Re: g&t -- that's totally fair, and an experience I've had on the floor as well, but oh man when it's done right it's lovely! Maybe worth spending some time teaching the right way to do it from the mic? (This is something I might do myself the next time I call one, come to think of it.) Another option: select for dances with a g&t *with partner* (rather than with neighbor) so couples can adjust to each other refine their resistance, playfulness, etc. rather than starting from square zero with a new N every time. Might make for a more satisfying experience. Just a thought. Cheers, Maia On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Thanks Luke, > You made some great points, and offer some good choices. > My experience as a dancer is the Give & Take is rarely satisfying. Seldom > is there any resistance, or playfulness, as intended by Jennings. > I try not to call more than one G&T in an evening. > Peace, Rich > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Luke Donforth <luke.donev(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Lots of great dances already suggested. >> >> Talking about the bigger picture programming thing, I hear wanting to >> change the feel and not have circles in every dance. While Give and Take >> might feel like a cheat to you, it will feel different for the dancers, and >> it's probably not egregious. >> >> You can also add a fair bit of texture with just different results from >> the circle. A swing ->circle & swing transition is going to feel different >> than a circle into a chain, or a circle left to a circle right, etc. I >> think two no-circle dances in a half is a good thing to shoot for, but also >> showing the various ways the circle can be used. >> >> A lot of 4x4 dances don't use circles, so if your crowds are up for (and >> large enough) for those, they can get you there and add other program >> texture. >> >> As for specific dances that haven't been mentioned yet, here are some >> with 10+ calls from my box: >> Marion's Delight by Carol Kopp >> A turn for the better by Bill Pope >> Friday Night Fever by Tony Parks >> Rocket City Romp by Cis Hinkle >> iFlirt by Luke Donforth >> 2nd Course by Luke Donforth >> A Sure Thing by Chris Page (has Circle Right) >> Treasure of the Sierra Madre by James Hutson (no N swing) >> Amherst and Wooster by Chris Weiler (no N swing) >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 8:16 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> Helo Folks, >>> >>> This group has been so quiet lately. The group has been so important >>> for me as I developed my Contra calling repertoire and skills, so I thought >>> I'd initiate a conversation. >>> >>> As I sit here programming a dance I realize that I do not have many >>> dances without circles. Many that I do have, do not have a Neighbor Swing, >>> or have a Give & Take to cheat it out. Those factors limit where and when >>> I can use them. >>> >>> I generally like to program two no circle dances in each half, and also >>> a NO neighbor Swing dance in at least one half if not both halves of an >>> evening. Any thoughts on this? >>> >>> Does anyone want to share some modern contras that have no Circles and >>> no Give & Takes, but include a partner and neighbor swing. >>> >>> Here are a few I have used. >>> >>> Just for NEFFA, Linda Leslie >>> Rollin' and Tumblin'. Cis Hinkle >>> Rocket City Romp, Cis Hinkle >>> Travels with Rick and Kim, Shari Miller Johnson >>> Friday Night Fever, Tony Parkes >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Rich Sbardella >>> Stafford, CT >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Luke Donforth >> Luke.Donforth(a)gmail.com <Luke.Donev(a)gmail.com> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > >

6 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Circles, Crazy Circles

by Rich Sbardella

Thanks Luke, You made some great points, and offer some good choices. My experience as a dancer is the Give & Take is rarely satisfying. Seldom is there any resistance, or playfulness, as intended by Jennings. I try not to call more than one G&T in an evening. Peace, Rich On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Luke Donforth <luke.donev(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Lots of great dances already suggested. > > Talking about the bigger picture programming thing, I hear wanting to > change the feel and not have circles in every dance. While Give and Take > might feel like a cheat to you, it will feel different for the dancers, and > it's probably not egregious. > > You can also add a fair bit of texture with just different results from > the circle. A swing ->circle & swing transition is going to feel different > than a circle into a chain, or a circle left to a circle right, etc. I > think two no-circle dances in a half is a good thing to shoot for, but also > showing the various ways the circle can be used. > > A lot of 4x4 dances don't use circles, so if your crowds are up for (and > large enough) for those, they can get you there and add other program > texture. > > As for specific dances that haven't been mentioned yet, here are some with > 10+ calls from my box: > Marion's Delight by Carol Kopp > A turn for the better by Bill Pope > Friday Night Fever by Tony Parks > Rocket City Romp by Cis Hinkle > iFlirt by Luke Donforth > 2nd Course by Luke Donforth > A Sure Thing by Chris Page (has Circle Right) > Treasure of the Sierra Madre by James Hutson (no N swing) > Amherst and Wooster by Chris Weiler (no N swing) > > > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 8:16 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Helo Folks, >> >> This group has been so quiet lately. The group has been so important for >> me as I developed my Contra calling repertoire and skills, so I thought I'd >> initiate a conversation. >> >> As I sit here programming a dance I realize that I do not have many >> dances without circles. Many that I do have, do not have a Neighbor Swing, >> or have a Give & Take to cheat it out. Those factors limit where and when >> I can use them. >> >> I generally like to program two no circle dances in each half, and also a >> NO neighbor Swing dance in at least one half if not both halves of an >> evening. Any thoughts on this? >> >> Does anyone want to share some modern contras that have no Circles and no >> Give & Takes, but include a partner and neighbor swing. >> >> Here are a few I have used. >> >> Just for NEFFA, Linda Leslie >> Rollin' and Tumblin'. Cis Hinkle >> Rocket City Romp, Cis Hinkle >> Travels with Rick and Kim, Shari Miller Johnson >> Friday Night Fever, Tony Parkes >> >> Thanks, >> Rich Sbardella >> Stafford, CT >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> >> > > > -- > Luke Donforth > Luke.Donforth(a)gmail.com <Luke.Donev(a)gmail.com> >

6 years, 5 months

[Callers] Does a 1/2 figure 8 and cast off exist in ECD? In Contra?

by Luke Donforth

Hello all, I've been thinking about half figure eights, and variations on them. Is anyone familiar (in ECD, contra, or other traditions), where instead of the 1s or 2s half figure eight, having the gents or ladies do the move from improper formation? As soon as you have something like the ladies do a half figure eight from duple improper; they're either going to have to shift where they land, or the gents are going to have to get out of the way. It seems to me (during my insomnia, not with actual dancers in a house party) that you could have the gents cast off and over to a ladies place. i.e.: *Ladies half figure eight, passing left shoulder in the middle to take neighbor gents' place* *Meanwhile, gents cast over left shoulder to take partner's place* Which takes (head of hall) W1 M1 m2 w2 to (head of hall) M1 W1 w2 m2 Which ends in the same place as everybody doing a half figure eight, but without 4 people trying to go through the middle at the same time. I think it can still happen in 8 beats of music, with nobody standing around. Is that a sequence people have danced or used? Here's a wrapping to put the whole thing in context. Calliope's Cross Improper contra by Luke Donforth A1 Long lines forward and back Ladies half figure eight, passing left shoulder in the middle to take neighbor gents' place Meanwhile, gents cast over left shoulder to take partner's place A2 Neighbor Right Shoulder Gyre and Swing B1 Circle Left 3/4 Partner Swing B2 Promenade across set with partner, courtesy turn Ladies chain to neighbor The name, and idea, comes from my older daughter (4), who wanted a "Calliope's Cross" dance for herself after hearing about "Tamlin's Cross" for her sister. Calliope like riding figure 8s on her bicycle. I've deliberately kept this simple, instead of trying to get a gents figure 8 while ladies cast in for symmetry. I'm not sure how I'd teach that from the stage; and think I'd have to use a demo. I look forward to hearing the experience of the group! Thanks -- Luke Donforth Luke.Donforth(a)gmail.com <Luke.Donev(a)gmail.com>

6 years, 5 months

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