Hi Seth and Luke,
This discussion has inspired me to revisit grid contras.
We danced a grid contra yesterday at our monthly dance in Christchurch.
The majority of the dancers (24) were experienced but 8 were less so.
Even so it went well and all found it fun.
Here is a video of the setting up, teaching, walk throughs and the dance.
With a bit of computer animation thrown in.
https://youtu.be/gLKBm4j7gbQ
There were a few hiccups with the filming as my camera suffered tripod
droop! I had a great birds eye view from the stage, but the
camera less so :-(
I called a variation of Petronella Fancy which I wrote in 2012.
It was inspired by Kim's Game by Colin Hume. Petronella Fancy
was originally a type of 4 face 4, but easily extended to
an arbitrary regular grid.
The variation I used last night changed the order (to suit the
music better) and used both a double progression and
double transgression.
We danced on a grid of 4 adjacent contra lines of length 4 couples.
Total of 32 dancers. The dance has a period of 10 during which
each dancer will swing 5 different neighbors (each twice).
The 2s in the left line, 1s in the right line, 2s in front hands-four
and 1s in back hands-four all travel around the perimeter of the grid.
The 6 remaining couples form 3 pairs that vibrate back and forth.
This is the version we danced.
Petronella Fancy DP
A1 (4) [Entire oval along the set] Balance ring (4) Petronella turn
(4) [Entire oval along the set] Balance ring (4) Petronella turn
A2 (4) Pass through along (NR)
(4) Pass through along (N2R)
(8) N2 neighbor swing; face partner
B1 (8) Men allemande left 1 & 1/2
(8) Partner swing
B2 (8) [Groups of four] Circle left 3/4 [with N2]; face along
(8) Lines across the set forward and back
In general this dance is interesting if the grid does not have many
interior hands-four rings, as those couples vibrate and see very
few neighbors.
Here is the original
http://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=12042
It had a single progression and this means that couples traveling around the
perimeter are out very frequently which is not much fun.
I can easily generate animations for other size grids if anyone is interested.
Cheers, Bill
On 10/10/2018 9:05 a.m., Tepfer, Seth via Callers wrote:
> When a couple moves up and down the lines, we call that 'progression'.
> When a couple moves ACROSS the lines, I call that 'transgression'. Not
> counting four face fours (aka mescolanzas, double countras) I know of three
> dances that 'transgress' in some form or another:
Hi Don,
I think that the default definition now is that the pivot point is at the joined hands, but diverse choreography means that it can be anywhere in order to achieve the desired effect.
For example in Bob Isaacs’ March of the Triplets, the second pair of Gates have to move sideways while rotating, to make room for another couple to fit in line between the two Gates.
It is often worth clarifying who is doing the Gating and what the destination is.
I agree that choreography interpretation can be a challenge. I have never understood dances like Devil’s Dream and Beaux/Boys of Oakhill where the dance finishes with a Right & Left Through, so that the couples are in line, but starts with a completely different configuration. All the dancers have to move from lines into a new position in zero time.
I strongly suspect that dances like this were originally Two Changes of Rights & Lefts; the dancers could use the final Pull By Left to get to their new position. The addition of the Courtesy Turn really messes the choreography up. Or maybe it was just lousy choreography :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
From: Callers <callers-bounces(a)lists.sharedweight.net> On Behalf Of Don Veino via Callers
Sent: 13 October 2018 22:53
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Gate vs Hand Cast
Thanks for all the replies and details! I only have one of Larry's books, mine (G&T if I recall correctly) has just a supplemental glossary.
I was stuck on the idea of a gate having a person serving as a post, now I understand the definition has gone to a shared/equal move. Gate it is.
I don't have any examples at hand, but such a change in meaning/practice (around a person - > around a pair's center) could impact the feeling of prior choreography. I think I read something recently where an argument was being made that modern folks approaching traditional material with current move interpretation may be causing them to not flow as well as they did with contemporary interpretation, negatively coloring dancer reception of the material.
-Don
Thanks for all the replies and details! I only have one of Larry's books,
mine (G&T if I recall correctly) has just a supplemental glossary.
I was stuck on the idea of a gate having a person serving as a post, now I
understand the definition has gone to a shared/equal move. Gate it is.
I don't have any examples at hand, but such a change in meaning/practice
(around a person - > around a pair's center) could impact the feeling of
prior choreography. I think I read something recently where an argument was
being made that modern folks approaching traditional material with current
move interpretation may be causing them to not flow as well as they did
with contemporary interpretation, negatively coloring dancer reception of
the material.
-Don
On Mon, Oct 8, 2018, 1:20 AM Don Veino <sharedweight_net(a)veino.com> wrote:
> You may have seen my "Feeling Gravity's Pull" which I posted at the end of
> the recent Mad Robin teaching thread.
>
> In that dance, there's a move where partners are facing in side by side on
> the outside of the set (where the Gents have forward momentum and the
> Ladies neutral to backward momentum) and my intent was for them to rotate
> around their inside hand connection with the Gents going forward and Ladies
> backing up once around. (As opposed to the Gent walks a circle around the
> Lady.) So the net effect would be like a courtesy turn, in going around a
> central point between the dancers, just a little "wider."
>
> I believe the correct term for this would be "Hand Cast" but I had a
> dancer who was adamant about it being a "Gate" in ECD so when I posted the
> dance that's the term I used. I've again done some googling and found no
> ready reference to a "Hand Cast" in ECD and only the slightest in a contra
> context, yet the term sticks in my mind.
>
> What say ye? Is "Hand Cast" a thing and correct in this context?
>
> Thanks,
> Don
>
In addition to Pong, the grid contra I've tried at two dance weekends,
there's also some six face six dances I wrote; only "two out of three ain't
bad" has actually been field tested. I've had it succeed and be enjoyed,
I've also had it degenerate into a circle mixer.
http://www.madrobincallers.org/2014/02/26/6-facing-6-contra-dances/
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018, 7:20 AM Bill Baritompa <bill.baritompa(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Seth,
>
> Ages ago you mentioned your dance Transgressions on SW and I made
> some snapshots of it.
>
> I checked callers box and notice that the link to the snapshots
> in the caller's notes of
> http://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=12040
> is no longer valid as picasaweb is dead.
>
> I've moved the snap shots here:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/uxB2Qh4Ya7K31cBX7
> so you can send an update to Chris to fix the callers box listing.
>
> I've also added a few more snapshots of the paths and neighbors met.
>
> Luke Donforth wrote a very interesting grid contra which he called Pong.
> It has both progression and transgression which changes during the dance.
>
> The paths of couples are diagonal but bounce off the boundary of the grid,
> thus solving the problem of some couples not moving very much or at all.
> However this was at the expense of have 'changing states' that dancers had
> to be
> aware of.
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/msg10581.html
> http://www.madrobincallers.org/2017/09/19/pong-a-grid-contra/
>
> I had corresponded quite a bit about it. He actually tried the dance at
> one point.
>
> I've attached some comments about it and this is video about the math
> https://youtu.be/S_qCbQIAFbQ
>
> Cheers, Bill
>
>
>
>
>
Star Wars by Peter Foster has couples from each line go out and star
with couples from the next line. Does that count?
Jonathan
On 10/9/2018 3:05 PM, Tepfer, Seth via Callers wrote:
> When a couple moves up and down the lines, we call that 'progression'.
> When a couple moves ACROSS the lines, I call that 'transgression'. Not
> counting four face fours (aka mescolanzas, double countras) I know of
> three dances that 'transgress' in some form or another:
>
> * Out of Bounds*, Will Mentor
> * Becket's Crossing, Chris Kermiet
> * New and Improved, Super Ultra Snake Oil #9* (seth's riff from) Roger
> Diggle
>
> What others are out there?
> Seth
>
> *Technically these are 'minor' transgressions since they only go over to
> the other line and then come back. Still, they are 'crossing the line'!
In the English repertoire, in Freeford Gardens and really most any dance
that has people leading out to the side of the set there is the opportunity
to loop around folks in the next set. Similarly, in progressive squares
such as grapevine twist when I'm in the couple that's last in a figure,
I'll invite my partner to momentarily join another set at the end of the
line so we're in action somewhere. All these are examples of ad lib
choreography, rather than something intended by the author, except in the
larger sense that the author intended dancers to play and have fun.
--Jerome
Jerome Grisanti
660-528-0858
http://www.jeromegrisanti.com
"Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power
and magic in it." --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 3:05 PM Tepfer, Seth via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> When a couple moves up and down the lines, we call that 'progression'.
> When a couple moves ACROSS the lines, I call that 'transgression'. Not
> counting four face fours (aka mescolanzas, double countras) I know of three
> dances that 'transgress' in some form or another:
>
> - Out of Bounds*, Will Mentor
> - Becket's Crossing, Chris Kermiet
> - New and Improved, Super Ultra Snake Oil #9* (seth's riff from) Roger
> Diggle
>
> What others are out there?
> Seth
>
> *Technically these are 'minor' transgressions since they only go over to
> the other line and then come back. Still, they are 'crossing the line'!
>
>
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Is B2 intended to be ravens chain with a courtesy turn and then swing or
just ravens pull by right and swing your partner?
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 7:31 AM Mary Collins via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> I was in the MRI tube yesterday and this dance asked to be written down. To
> any one's knowlege does it exists?
>
> In the MRI. Imp.
>
> A1- in ring bal. Petronella, repeat; N swing
> A2- LLFwB; Ladies/Raven chain
> B1- ladies/Raven chain; P swing
> B2- in ring bal. Petronella, repeat; balance California twirl to new N.
>
> In the B2 you can skip the courtesy turn and make a bit lonher swing with
> your partner if you choose.
>
> I really don't like a lot of turning and spinning due to a personal
> balance issue but this felt fun.
>
> Thanks all.
> Mary Collins
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
--
Jack Mitchell
Durham, NC
When a couple moves up and down the lines, we call that 'progression'.
When a couple moves ACROSS the lines, I call that 'transgression'. Not counting four face fours (aka mescolanzas, double countras) I know of three dances that 'transgress' in some form or another:
* Out of Bounds*, Will Mentor
* Becket's Crossing, Chris Kermiet
* New and Improved, Super Ultra Snake Oil #9* (seth's riff from) Roger Diggle
What others are out there?
Seth
*Technically these are 'minor' transgressions since they only go over to the other line and then come back. Still, they are 'crossing the line'!
________________________________
This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of
the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
information. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution
or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly
prohibited.
If you have received this message in error, please contact
the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the
original message (including attachments).
I was in the MRI tube yesterday and this dance asked to be written down. To
any one's knowlege does it exists?
In the MRI. Imp.
A1- in ring bal. Petronella, repeat; N swing
A2- LLFwB; Ladies/Raven chain
B1- ladies/Raven chain; P swing
B2- in ring bal. Petronella, repeat; balance California twirl to new N.
In the B2 you can skip the courtesy turn and make a bit lonher swing with
your partner if you choose.
I really don't like a lot of turning and spinning due to a personal balance
issue but this felt fun.
Thanks all.
Mary Collins
Hi Don,
Alan said most of it already.
You could potentially use any of Gate, Wheel, Wheel Around, Assisted Cast, Hand Cast, Hand Cast Off, Turn as a Couple!
From Zesty Contras:
Hand Cast Off: Often shortened to “hand cast”, even though it is assisted. Dancers, hand in hand and with strong connection, follow the same path as in any conventional cast off.
Cast Off: As described in B&S. Note that two couples always participate, usually with connection between them. In CAST AROUND, by contrast, those casting do not have connection with another couple and any movement by another couple is usually stated explicitly.
>From B&S (Balance and Swing by Ted Sannella):
CAST OFF: In a contra or triplet, a method of progression which can be danced in several ways. Most commonly, an active couple come up the center of the set until they are between the appropriate inactive couple and all four dancers face up. Each active dancer and the adjacent inactive dancer turn side by side three-quarters round, with the active dancer moving forward and the inactive dancer moving backward, until both dancers are in a line facing in, the active couple now below the inactives. In an ARM-AROUND CAST OFF two dancers place their near arms around each other’s waists during the turn and in a HAND CAST OFF two dancers join near hands at shoulder height with elbows down. Either of these casts may also be referred to as an ASSISTED CAST OFF.
We also have an Assisted Cast Off wherein the inactives put their hand on their hip and offer their elbow for the active to hook onto; this is more common in dances with a Gallop where there is a lot of momentum to redirect.
You also could use “Wheel”, which B&S defines as “The same as TURN AS A COUPLE”.
TURN AS A COUPLE: A pair of dancers with nearest hands joined reverse direction by rotating as a unit, with the right hand person moving forward as the left hand person backs around. This movement is usually done in four counts of music. In a popular variation some dancers prefer to turn as a couple by having the lady go under their upraised joined hands as both dancers move forward. <<That is, of course, now much more common and known as a California Twirl!>>
We tend to say “Wheel Around” rather than just “Wheel” these days, and indeed Modern Western Square Dance defines:
Wheel Around
Dance action: The couple, working as a unit, turns around to the left (180 degrees). The left-side dancer backs up while the right-side dancer moves forward. The pivot point is the handhold between the two dancers.
MWSD also has:
Cast Off 3/4
>From a General Line, each half of the line works together: ... those in a Couple turn, as a unit, away from the center of the line for 3/4 of a circle (270 degrees).
Historically, Wilson (1820) used Cast Off where we, today, would now just say Cast, to get the #1s to turn up and out and head down the outside of the set.
But, ignoring Wilson, I would suggest that the key difference between a Gate and a (Hand) Cast (Off) is that in a Hand Cast one person has some significant momentum to redirect and the other starts stationary, while in a Gate both people start from similar (not necessarily identical) states. A Wheel Around tends to be 180 degrees, a Hand Cast tends to be 270 degrees, and you are going for 360 degrees.
So, I would say that, in your dance, Gate would be the best word to use; Hand Cast, while basically the same, is not quite the right term and is rarely used these days.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com <mailto:john@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
From: Callers <callers-bounces(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net> > On Behalf Of Don Veino via Callers
Sent: 08 October 2018 06:21
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@sharedweight.net> >
Subject: [Callers] Gate vs Hand Cast
You may have seen my "Feeling Gravity's Pull" which I posted at the end of the recent Mad Robin teaching thread.
In that dance, there's a move where partners are facing in side by side on the outside of the set (where the Gents have forward momentum and the Ladies neutral to backward momentum) and my intent was for them to rotate around their inside hand connection with the Gents going forward and Ladies backing up once around. (As opposed to the Gent walks a circle around the Lady.) So the net effect would be like a courtesy turn, in going around a central point between the dancers, just a little "wider."
I believe the correct term for this would be "Hand Cast" but I had a dancer who was adamant about it being a "Gate" in ECD so when I posted the dance that's the term I used. I've again done some googling and found no ready reference to a "Hand Cast" in ECD and only the slightest in a contra context, yet the term sticks in my mind.
What say ye? Is "Hand Cast" a thing and correct in this context?
Thanks,
Don
