Import1 March 2017

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1 participants
77 discussions

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return

by Donna Hunt via Callers

Please re-read my post. I'm not talking about a missing a "hot groove" or the "hotshots" not having fun. I didn't say to take their money and not allow them to dance. Please don't minimize my suggestion. We're brainstorming here and giving opinions. Nothing stops productive discussion like an "I'm amazed some people would..." statement. If a dancer fits my criteria, they can still be part of the dance community and visit with friends by being a greeter/door sitter/volunteer and dance with partners who are willing to support them. Likewise if someone fits your description of twirling folks up and down the line without concern for their well being and that person should be counseled and educated by the dance committee. Any regular member of a dance community is capable of recognizing those who enjoy being twirled. If they don't recognize someone then consent should be obtained prior to twirling. I've been dancing for 30 years. When I'm not able to dance due to an injury, I take the door slots and greet people. There are several folks in our dance community who have voluntarily done that over the past 10 years. It allows folks to productively give back and be part of the evening, enjoy music and friends. Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Jim Thaxter <jathaxter47(a)gmail.com> To: Donna Hunt <dhuntdancer(a)aol.com>; callers <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Fri, Mar 10, 2017 11:16 am Subject: Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return Wow! I am amazed that some people would ask people not to dance after they've paid their admission fee, have come expecting to dance, and have been dancing for months, or perhaps years in some cases. Asking them to help out by sitting at the door or putting chairs away or other tasks done by volunteers (who have been dancing) seems patronizing to me. This doesn't seem like the inclusive atmosphere I've come to expect at dances I attend. If putting other dancers at risk is the criteria for asking someone not to participate, would that include people who insist on twirling nearly everyone they meet down the line? People with shoulder problems, balance problems, other physical conditions that make it uncomfortable or even dangerous to be twirled are at risk. Our Columbia, MO group has more than one person who has had a brain injury, stroke, hearing difficulty, MS, and we all happily dance with them and are glad to have them attend. We accommodate their "condition" and welcome them into the dance. Sure, you don't get that hot groove going when you dance with them. I like the groove when it happens, but that's not why I dance and I like it better when even those who aren't hotshots are having a great time. Jim Thaxter On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 1:48 PM Donna Hunt via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on their inability to dance? Is there some point at which you as organizers would consider and ultimately such a decision? Personally I think it's appropriate to ask someone not to dance if their inability puts other dancers at risk. For example, someone with poor balance (or inability to move fast enough) who hangs on their partners or grasps them tightly (and painfully) for support. If repeated intervention from the organizers cannot help, I would suggest that person be invited to be formal door sitter/greeter and perhaps dance with only a select few folks who understand and are willing to modify the dance for the individual and give them the support they need. Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Yoyo Zhou via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Mark Hillegonds <mark.hillegonds(a)gmail.com> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Wed, Mar 8, 2017 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Mark Hillegonds via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: So...what happens if all of the attempts to shepherd and coach and "angel" the difficult dancer do not work and their skills and abilities continue to be a significant negative impact when they're dancing. Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on their inability to dance? I realize "inability" is a broad term and I intended it to be so for this question. There are lots of reasons why someone may not be able to know what to do and/or to be able to keep up when dancing and may not even be able to improve. Is there some point at which you as organizers would consider and ultimately such a decision? Here in the SF Bay Area, I know of one dancer who's no longer welcome back at their local dance because of mobility issues related to aging, and another who's no longer welcome back because of general behavioral issues related to Alzheimer's. As far as I know, these dancers have simply been informed that their impairments preclude them from dancing with us. (This is different from being banned for bad behavior - they can still come but would be discouraged from dancing. By whom, I do not know.) I wasn't involved with the discussions that led to these decisions, so unfortunately I can't provide more background, but perhaps other people lurking on this list may be able to shed more light. However, we have increased our attention on dancer safety in general, and it's worth thinking about whether someone's inability to dance actually affects how safe it is on the floor for them and others around them. Yoyo Zhou _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return

by Dale Wilson via Callers

It's not about being the best dancers, or putting on the best show. For that, go watch "Dancing With the Stars" or better yet a performance by your local ballet troupe It's about a community getting together to enjoy each others company. Dancing happens along the way. Tolerance should happen, too. - So being a "poor" dancer (whatever the cause) is never a reason to ask someone to leave -- although it may prompt some very careful, very friendly advice, to try to help the person improve. - Being a "dangerous" dancer should trigger a stronger response. Make the person aware that certain activities are unacceptable (for example at our dances lifting a partner off the ground is forbidden) and other activities frowned upon (for example forcing a partner to go beyond their abilities or desires.) Even then the response should not be to ban the offender. Just to educate them firmly and stop the problem behavior. Of course if the problem doesn't stop further action may be necessary, but still it is unlikely to require a ban. - Having unfortunate personal habits (two much perfume, too little bathing, or showing up chemically impaired) should also trigger a firm, but kindly-intended response. The most serious case is a "predatory" dancer who takes advantage of other's weaknesses. A dancer who sees the occasion as a meat market or an opportunity to "get a little." A dancer who uses the occasion to intimidate or harrass other dancers. For those cases, a ban may be the appropriate response. Fortunately these cases seem to be rare. Dale -- There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors.

8 years

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return

by Donna Hunt via Callers

Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on their inability to dance? Is there some point at which you as organizers would consider and ultimately such a decision? Personally I think it's appropriate to ask someone not to dance if their inability puts other dancers at risk. For example, someone with poor balance (or inability to move fast enough) who hangs on their partners or grasps them tightly (and painfully) for support. If repeated intervention from the organizers cannot help, I would suggest that person be invited to be formal door sitter/greeter and perhaps dance with only a select few folks who understand and are willing to modify the dance for the individual and give them the support they need. Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Yoyo Zhou via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Mark Hillegonds <mark.hillegonds(a)gmail.com> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Wed, Mar 8, 2017 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Mark Hillegonds via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: So...what happens if all of the attempts to shepherd and coach and "angel" the difficult dancer do not work and their skills and abilities continue to be a significant negative impact when they're dancing. Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on their inability to dance? I realize "inability" is a broad term and I intended it to be so for this question. There are lots of reasons why someone may not be able to know what to do and/or to be able to keep up when dancing and may not even be able to improve. Is there some point at which you as organizers would consider and ultimately such a decision? Here in the SF Bay Area, I know of one dancer who's no longer welcome back at their local dance because of mobility issues related to aging, and another who's no longer welcome back because of general behavioral issues related to Alzheimer's. As far as I know, these dancers have simply been informed that their impairments preclude them from dancing with us. (This is different from being banned for bad behavior - they can still come but would be discouraged from dancing. By whom, I do not know.) I wasn't involved with the discussions that led to these decisions, so unfortunately I can't provide more background, but perhaps other people lurking on this list may be able to shed more light. However, we have increased our attention on dancer safety in general, and it's worth thinking about whether someone's inability to dance actually affects how safe it is on the floor for them and others around them. Yoyo Zhou _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return

by Cara Sawyer via Callers

I wonder if anyone has considered assigning some more hindered dancers a role that is not dancing? Could even make up roles for them. They could help make sure sound is ok. Could help refill water. Could make sure people's stuff isn't left. Other roles? Helping to set up. It wouldn't have to be a real job, just something where they could feel welcomed and useful. I think it's sad for someone to hear they are not welcome, and if they could be 'reassigned,' something like "We feel you may create hazardous circumstances on the dance floor both for you and for others, and in addition we really need________ role filled. Could we recruit you?" I did this in the after-school orchestra I used to lead, and though the scenario is different it may still prove somewhat relevant. The orchestra's goal was to get kids off the street, so turning them away could mean that they ended up somewhere much less safe than with a violin. There were some kids who just didn't fit in the box. One I recall was significantly younger, and one was particularly advanced. One was really hyper-active and sitting for an entire 1.5 hours was not a posability. I used their abilities differently than I did the other kids, and they not only took their roles very seriously, but added to the quality of the experience for the other kids. It also provided a way for the other kids to see how being out of the box could actually help them out. That gives them an out and does not ostracize. Just a thought maybe someone could use. On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I want to be clear that when I suggest other dance venues, I have never > suggested that dancers stop attending a series. My suggestion of other > (additional) venues is so that the dancer finds a user friendly place to > hone his/her skills. > Like Don, I believe that our communities should be inclusive. > Sorry for any misunderstanding. > Rich > Stafford, CT > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 5:34 PM, Don Veino via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 1:26 PM, Mark Hillegonds via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on >>> their inability to dance? >>> >> >> No. If we want to consider ourselves open and welcoming then, IMO, I >> believe we need to model that. There are venues that have a different >> mission and objective (the limited set of "experienced" dances) where this >> might be appropriate but for a general dance I'm uncomfortable with the >> idea of sending someone away because they struggle to perform as others >> might expect. >> >> In the dance series I help run we have several folks with challenges whom >> dance with us regularly. These include blindness, some memory impairment, >> perceptual/developmental issues, physical impairment and just plain slowing >> down. They are all welcome, even though that may cause others to have to >> adjust - and that's just what we do. Callers adjust their material and >> timing/calls. Dancers find ways collaboratively to surpass the challenges >> presented. >> >> We strive to keep the hall well mixed, or the dancers will naturally >> segment themselves such that the difficulties multiply rather than get >> mitigated. A lot of that has to do with material selection - fidgety >> fast-action dances will not encourage the mixing. Well constructed dances >> with great flow (and some space for flourishes/recovery) will. We also have >> generous experienced dancers who help in partnering. >> >> Is it easy to continue this way? Maybe not. It may cost us attendance. >> There are times I (and others) get frustrated. But then I take a deep >> breath and move on from the temporary issue knowing the bigger goal. I feel >> you need to set a view of what you want the culture of your series to be >> and act in accord. My dance strives to be a real community where we dance >> and engage *with* people and not just dance *next* to them. >> >> Of course there's a difference between lesser capability and >> inappropriate behavior. We don't tolerate the latter but fortunately we've >> had few issues in that regard. >> >> -Don >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > -- Cara V. Sawyer M.M. French Horn ~~

8 years

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return

by Rich Sbardella via Callers

I want to be clear that when I suggest other dance venues, I have never suggested that dancers stop attending a series. My suggestion of other (additional) venues is so that the dancer finds a user friendly place to hone his/her skills. Like Don, I believe that our communities should be inclusive. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Rich Stafford, CT On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 5:34 PM, Don Veino via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 1:26 PM, Mark Hillegonds via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on >> their inability to dance? >> > > No. If we want to consider ourselves open and welcoming then, IMO, I > believe we need to model that. There are venues that have a different > mission and objective (the limited set of "experienced" dances) where this > might be appropriate but for a general dance I'm uncomfortable with the > idea of sending someone away because they struggle to perform as others > might expect. > > In the dance series I help run we have several folks with challenges whom > dance with us regularly. These include blindness, some memory impairment, > perceptual/developmental issues, physical impairment and just plain slowing > down. They are all welcome, even though that may cause others to have to > adjust - and that's just what we do. Callers adjust their material and > timing/calls. Dancers find ways collaboratively to surpass the challenges > presented. > > We strive to keep the hall well mixed, or the dancers will naturally > segment themselves such that the difficulties multiply rather than get > mitigated. A lot of that has to do with material selection - fidgety > fast-action dances will not encourage the mixing. Well constructed dances > with great flow (and some space for flourishes/recovery) will. We also have > generous experienced dancers who help in partnering. > > Is it easy to continue this way? Maybe not. It may cost us attendance. > There are times I (and others) get frustrated. But then I take a deep > breath and move on from the temporary issue knowing the bigger goal. I feel > you need to set a view of what you want the culture of your series to be > and act in accord. My dance strives to be a real community where we dance > and engage *with* people and not just dance *next* to them. > > Of course there's a difference between lesser capability and inappropriate > behavior. We don't tolerate the latter but fortunately we've had few issues > in that regard. > > -Don > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

8 years

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return

by Don Veino via Callers

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 1:26 PM, Mark Hillegonds via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on > their inability to dance? > No. If we want to consider ourselves open and welcoming then, IMO, I believe we need to model that. There are venues that have a different mission and objective (the limited set of "experienced" dances) where this might be appropriate but for a general dance I'm uncomfortable with the idea of sending someone away because they struggle to perform as others might expect. In the dance series I help run we have several folks with challenges whom dance with us regularly. These include blindness, some memory impairment, perceptual/developmental issues, physical impairment and just plain slowing down. They are all welcome, even though that may cause others to have to adjust - and that's just what we do. Callers adjust their material and timing/calls. Dancers find ways collaboratively to surpass the challenges presented. We strive to keep the hall well mixed, or the dancers will naturally segment themselves such that the difficulties multiply rather than get mitigated. A lot of that has to do with material selection - fidgety fast-action dances will not encourage the mixing. Well constructed dances with great flow (and some space for flourishes/recovery) will. We also have generous experienced dancers who help in partnering. Is it easy to continue this way? Maybe not. It may cost us attendance. There are times I (and others) get frustrated. But then I take a deep breath and move on from the temporary issue knowing the bigger goal. I feel you need to set a view of what you want the culture of your series to be and act in accord. My dance strives to be a real community where we dance and engage *with* people and not just dance *next* to them. Of course there's a difference between lesser capability and inappropriate behavior. We don't tolerate the latter but fortunately we've had few issues in that regard. -Don

8 years

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return

by Yoyo Zhou via Callers

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Mark Hillegonds via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > So...what happens if all of the attempts to shepherd and coach and "angel" > the difficult dancer do not work and their skills and abilities continue to > be a significant negative impact when they're dancing. > > Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on > their inability to dance? > > I realize "inability" is a broad term and I intended it to be so for this > question. There are lots of reasons why someone may not be able to know > what to do and/or to be able to keep up when dancing and may not even be > able to improve. > > Is there some point at which you as organizers would consider and > ultimately such a decision? > Here in the SF Bay Area, I know of one dancer who's no longer welcome back at their local dance because of mobility issues related to aging, and another who's no longer welcome back because of general behavioral issues related to Alzheimer's. As far as I know, these dancers have simply been informed that their impairments preclude them from dancing with us. (This is different from being banned for bad behavior - they can still come but would be discouraged from dancing. By whom, I do not know.) I wasn't involved with the discussions that led to these decisions, so unfortunately I can't provide more background, but perhaps other people lurking on this list may be able to shed more light. However, we have increased our attention on dancer safety in general, and it's worth thinking about whether someone's inability to dance actually affects how safe it is on the floor for them and others around them. Yoyo Zhou

8 years

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return

by Mac Mckeever via Callers

In St Louis we have had our share of very challenged dancer and have never considered this possibility. We take the removal of anyone from the community to be a very serious step. It has been limited to a very few cases of inappropriate contact or other relationship issues. Mac McKeever From: Mark Hillegonds via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Alexandra Deis-Lauby <adeislauby(a)gmail.com> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2017 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return Lots of thoughtful discussion and ideas about how to incorporate difficult dancers. Splitting this into another variant of this discussion... So...what happens if all of the attempts to shepherd and coach and "angel" the difficult dancer do not work and their skills and abilities continue to be a significant negative impact when they're dancing. Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on their inability to dance? I realize "inability" is a broad term and I intended it to be so for this question. There are lots of reasons why someone may not be able to know what to do and/or to be able to keep up when dancing and may not even be able to improve. Is there some point at which you as organizers would consider and ultimately such a decision? On Mar 6, 2017 6:46 PM, "Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Inspired by Marie's other thread, I wonder what tools callers use when they encounter a dance floor with such a dancer, especially if there is only one who is having so much difficulty but who leaves confused dancers in their wake. Do you call to that dancer? Do you call earlier? Do you adjust your program accordingly? Something else? Thanks,Alex Sent from my iPhone ______________________________ _________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/ listinfo.cgi/callers- sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers - Decision to ask not to return

by Mark Hillegonds via Callers

Lots of thoughtful discussion and ideas about how to incorporate difficult dancers. Splitting this into another variant of this discussion... So...what happens if all of the attempts to shepherd and coach and "angel" the difficult dancer do not work and their skills and abilities continue to be a significant negative impact when they're dancing. Would you ever (or have you ever) asked someone not to return based on their inability to dance? I realize "inability" is a broad term and I intended it to be so for this question. There are lots of reasons why someone may not be able to know what to do and/or to be able to keep up when dancing and may not even be able to improve. Is there some point at which you as organizers would consider and ultimately such a decision? On Mar 6, 2017 6:46 PM, "Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Inspired by Marie's other thread, I wonder what tools callers use when they encounter a dance floor with such a dancer, especially if there is only one who is having so much difficulty but who leaves confused dancers in their wake. Do you call to that dancer? Do you call earlier? Do you adjust your program accordingly? Something else? Thanks, Alex Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

by James Saxe via Callers

Mac McKeever wrote: > It has been my experience that dancers with limited skills/ability often do not realize they are different from anyone else. They assume that being lost and confused during a dance is normal. > > Finding a gentle way to bring this to their attention might be a good way to start and Ron Blechner replied: > Mac, suggestions on how? JD Erskine meanwhile offered this comment: > If our ... dancer in question is lumbering, stiff, not moving much, and can/may move, then assisting him in that might help make it easier to direct him more in the normal flow of the dance. > > To do more certainly would be best with permission, awareness of offered assistance. to which Ron similarly replied: > I'd love to hear suggestions on how to approach a dancer like the one in question, and broach the subject. So far I haven't seen anyone respond to Ron's request for suggestions about opening such a potentially delicate conversation. I don't have a fully-developed suggestion either, but I have what may be the germ of an idea: Perhaps the thing to do would be to start by asking the person a question. I'll illustrate with a story. When I was a new square and contra dancer, I was quite mystified about just what to do with my feet during a swing. I remember trying to watch other dancers' feet when they were swinging and I was inactive, and I remember not being able to figure it out--though it seems completely obvious when I watch now. In case anyone's wondering, the local dances where I lived at the time didn't normally include an official new dancers' workshop/lesson/orientation. The visiting caller at my very first trad dance *did* offer some specific instruction on swinging, but I somehow missed out on it for reasons I won't go into now. Anyway, after I'd been going to dances for maybe three or four months and staggering/stumbling/bumbling through all the swings, there was some kind of break at a dance one day, and the partner I'd just danced with took the opportunity to ask me a question that I remember as something like, "Was that a one-step [perhaps she actually said "buzz-step"] or a two-step swing you were doing?" just as if she'd noticed something interesting about my swing and wanted me to teach her what I had been doing. I said that I had no idea what I was supposed to do (which, in retrospect, she must obviously have already known), She offered to teach me. And that was when I first learned to do a buzz-step swing, very bouncily at first, then gradually smoothing out over the next few weeks and months. Years later, after moving across the country, I was back visiting my former city and I saw that same woman at a dance. I asked her about the conversation I've just described. She didn't remember the details, but she agreed with my guess that her question had probably been a ploy to find out whether I was open to instruction. A similar sort of ploy would be to ask someone for ideas on how to teach beginning dancers about such-and-such, naming a topic that the person you're addressing understands only vaguely if at all. Of course, when my friend asked me that ploy question years ago, she couldn't have known for sure that my response would be to admit ignorance and seek instruction. I might, for all she knew, have responded defensively or even confrontationally (but I think she could reasonably have expected my response to be less emotionally charged than if she had bluntly asked something like "Do you realize that your swings are really awkward?"). Or if I were vaguely aware of my lack of skill but also strongly in denial about it, I might have given an evasive answer accompanied by nervous laughter: "Well, we all have our own personal styles, don't we? Heh, heh, heh." --Jim

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Import1 March 2017