Import1 September 2016

import1@lists2.sharedweight.net

1 participants
52 discussions

by Donna Hunt via Callers

Not sure if this reply from Betsy Gotta went through on the list. I'm reprinting it here for her. Read below Donna -----Original Message----- From: Betsy Gotta <ugottadance(a)optonline.net> To: 'Donna Hunt' <dhuntdancer(a)aol.com>; jeremy.m.child <jeremy.m.child(a)gmail.com> Cc: Callers <Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> Sent: Thu, Sep 29, 2016 6:28 pm Subject: RE: [Callers] Boys and Girls Hi All, Donna shared the information string with me, since I am one of the callers for Independence Squares, the club in Phila that she mentioned. In addition to calling and teaching for Independence Squares in Phila, I also call and teach for the gay/lesbian square dance club in New York City. Both groups accept gender specific terms and use the method of identifying dancers by raising a hand and saying “Boy/Girl” when the choreography makes it important for the dancers to know with whom they need to work. Personally, when calling, I have a sense of who often dances which part and that helps me keep track of where the dancers of different roles are positioned. Another help is for me to call “Boys or Girls u-turn back (turn around) which allows me to see where they are. I have the freedom to do this because I am calling MWSD with flexible choreography. As a long time caller, I have always preferred the terms Gent and Lady, because to me they are roles that people adopt more than men/women and boy/girl. Lead/Follow is not useful in MWSD because the term “Lead” means the dancer in front, and not person dancing the “man’s” role. Betsy Gotta From: Donna Hunt [mailto:dhuntdancer@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2016 11:42 AM To: jeremy.m.child(a)gmail.com Cc: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net Subject: Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls When there's a role specific move called ie, "Boys trade from a wave" the dancers in that role say "Boy" (or "Girl" if it's "girl" specific). The dancers only say it loud enough for their set to hear, the dancers don't yell it loud enough for the callers to hear. The callers usually make a note of who the couples are prior to starting the tip so they have a record of who is in which position. If they are teaching and need clarification they will ask the "boys" or "girls" to identify with a raised hand. Our dancers don't try to identify who they are supposed to be dancing with, they dance to the definition of the call and dance with whomever is coming at them. Sometimes during class this becomes very interesting especially if someone boldly moves in the wrong direction and does a move with the wrong person. Occasionally dancers become confused and can be heard muttering, "Oh, yeah I'm supposed to be a (insert role here)." Our group has dancers and classes from Mainstream up to C2. Check it out: http://www.independencesquares.org/ Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Child <jeremy.m.child(a)gmail.com> To: Donna Hunt <dhuntdancer(a)aol.com> Cc: callers <Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> Sent: Wed, Sep 28, 2016 2:35 am Subject: Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls Thanks Donna. How do the dancers know who's dancing boy and who girl? Sometimes they need to, or do the callers avoid any calls requiring this knowledge (e.g. boys trade from a wave)? Jeremy On 28 September 2016 at 01:58, Donna Hunt <dhuntdancer(a)aol.com> wrote: Here in Philadelphia the MSW group (Independence Squares) is an LGBT and straight group and we dance to the calls of girl/boy and are free to dance whichever role we wish without any identifying "sashes". Our callers are fantastic at remembering who the couples/boys/girls are during any square. Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Child via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Callers <Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> Sent: Tue, Sep 27, 2016 2:47 pm Subject: [Callers] Boys and Girls Hi This is for the MWSD callers amongst you. There has been much discussion on this group about the terms used for the two roles in contra dance. I do not propose to resurrect that here, I mention it to emphasise that many feel the terms used to be important, and that we should be moving away from any gender connotation in them. MWSD uses Ladies, Gents, Men, Women, Girls, Boys - all highly gendered. Is it time we changed these? If so, how? In theory with Callerlab it will be easier, but I suspect they would strongly resist such a change, since the "maleness" and "femaleness" of the roles (e.g. skirt work) is such a fundamental part of what MWSD is. Thoughts? (Apologies to those to whom this is all gibberish) Jeremy Child www.barndancecaller.net www.genderfreedance.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls

by Neal Schlein via Callers

Lessons are a different ball of wax, especially if you are teaching both roles to everyone. Sashes seem reasonable there. I'm talking about dancers at the competent level and above at a normal dance. The speed and complexity of squares makes visual signifiers too slow and unhelpful; facing someone of the same gender could be correct, so all you can really be responsible for is your own position. As for calling to groups that role swap mid-square: that was my question, too, when I was warned about a group. The caller just grinned and wished me good luck. I've picked out a few solutions, some better than others. 1. Know if it is likely in advance. 2. Ask one set to be nice and dance pilot. 3. Only use modules for that group. 4. Pre-choreograph everything (common in southern AZ) 5. Watch at least two, or even three, sets for agreement if anything ever looks odd. (A good idea anyway in case your pilot square breaks) 6. Keep it simple. 7. Call so fast they don't have time to fool around. (Can backfire!) 8. Embrace and encourage it during a particular square. 9. Watch a square that isn't smiling/is mostly older or serious. 10. See #1. Don't worry about it and just keep calling. If there is an actual problem, they'll tell you. Beginners don't do it--it's the folks who know enough to be dangerous. Neal On Sep 29, 2016 4:33 AM, "Jeremy Child" <jeremy.m.child(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Nick: Some good stuff in those links - thank you. > Donna: I love the idea of identifying your role by saying "boy" or > "girl". Thanks for the link to your web pages. I did try to look at your > FB group but got a "this content isn't available right now" error message. > Neal: I'm intrigued by the "not wearing bands/physical identifiers", and > more so by mid-tip role swapping. How does the caller cope? If xe is > purely using modules then there's no problem, but how does xe cope if xe is > sight calling? OK xe could memorise 4 positions rather than just two > couples, but if the dancers are role swapping xe may not be able to tell > what FASR the square is in. > In my MWSD classes I insist that the "boys" wear a sash and the "girls" > don't - irrespective of actual gender. This is partly to make it easier to > see when the square has gone asymmetric, and partly to eliminate the idea > that "boy is the natural role of a man, so if a woman dances it she must be > marked out in some way (and vice versa)". > Jeremy > > On 28 September 2016 at 18:54, Neal Schlein via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> My experience is basically the same as Donna's, although I'd say the >> gent/lady statement is less of a "convention" than a matter of simple >> practicality. It usually gets said early in a dance or when actually >> necessary. >> >> In a square there is also no real need for ties/bands/vests/sashes for a >> simple reason: the set is fully aware of itself. Everyone can see all of >> the couples upon squaring up; we help each other remember who does what >> anyway. In a really scrambled set everyone figures it's a minor miracle if >> something doesn't break down regardless, and that's doubly true in clubs >> where people actively swap roles during the dance. If it happens, you just >> regroup and try again. >> >> The frequent "Aack! I'm a ____!" when allemande left or star thru are >> called is pretty funny, especially since it often comes from very >> experienced dancers...who then proceed to go the wrong way with supreme >> confidence. (Callers are even more susceptible, since our line is, "Aack! >> I'm a DANCER!!!") >> >> Neal >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >

8 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls

by Jeremy Child via Callers

Nick: Some good stuff in those links - thank you. Donna: I love the idea of identifying your role by saying "boy" or "girl". Thanks for the link to your web pages. I did try to look at your FB group but got a "this content isn't available right now" error message. Neal: I'm intrigued by the "not wearing bands/physical identifiers", and more so by mid-tip role swapping. How does the caller cope? If xe is purely using modules then there's no problem, but how does xe cope if xe is sight calling? OK xe could memorise 4 positions rather than just two couples, but if the dancers are role swapping xe may not be able to tell what FASR the square is in. In my MWSD classes I insist that the "boys" wear a sash and the "girls" don't - irrespective of actual gender. This is partly to make it easier to see when the square has gone asymmetric, and partly to eliminate the idea that "boy is the natural role of a man, so if a woman dances it she must be marked out in some way (and vice versa)". Jeremy On 28 September 2016 at 18:54, Neal Schlein via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > My experience is basically the same as Donna's, although I'd say the > gent/lady statement is less of a "convention" than a matter of simple > practicality. It usually gets said early in a dance or when actually > necessary. > > In a square there is also no real need for ties/bands/vests/sashes for a > simple reason: the set is fully aware of itself. Everyone can see all of > the couples upon squaring up; we help each other remember who does what > anyway. In a really scrambled set everyone figures it's a minor miracle if > something doesn't break down regardless, and that's doubly true in clubs > where people actively swap roles during the dance. If it happens, you just > regroup and try again. > > The frequent "Aack! I'm a ____!" when allemande left or star thru are > called is pretty funny, especially since it often comes from very > experienced dancers...who then proceed to go the wrong way with supreme > confidence. (Callers are even more susceptible, since our line is, "Aack! > I'm a DANCER!!!") > > Neal > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

8 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls

by Donna Hunt via Callers

When there's a role specific move called ie, "Boys trade from a wave" the dancers in that role say "Boy" (or "Girl" if it's "girl" specific). The dancers only say it loud enough for their set to hear, the dancers don't yell it loud enough for the callers to hear. The callers usually make a note of who the couples are prior to starting the tip so they have a record of who is in which position. If they are teaching and need clarification they will ask the "boys" or "girls" to identify with a raised hand. Our dancers don't try to identify who they are supposed to be dancing with, they dance to the definition of the call and dance with whomever is coming at them. Sometimes during class this becomes very interesting especially if someone boldly moves in the wrong direction and does a move with the wrong person. Occasionally dancers become confused and can be heard muttering, "Oh, yeah I'm supposed to be a (insert role here)." Our group has dancers and classes from Mainstream up to C2. Check it out: http://www.independencesquares.org/ Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Child <jeremy.m.child(a)gmail.com> To: Donna Hunt <dhuntdancer(a)aol.com> Cc: callers <Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> Sent: Wed, Sep 28, 2016 2:35 am Subject: Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls Thanks Donna. How do the dancers know who's dancing boy and who girl? Sometimes they need to, or do the callers avoid any calls requiring this knowledge (e.g. boys trade from a wave)? Jeremy On 28 September 2016 at 01:58, Donna Hunt <dhuntdancer(a)aol.com> wrote: Here in Philadelphia the MSW group (Independence Squares) is an LGBT and straight group and we dance to the calls of girl/boy and are free to dance whichever role we wish without any identifying "sashes". Our callers are fantastic at remembering who the couples/boys/girls are during any square. Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Child via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Callers <Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> Sent: Tue, Sep 27, 2016 2:47 pm Subject: [Callers] Boys and Girls Hi This is for the MWSD callers amongst you. There has been much discussion on this group about the terms used for the two roles in contra dance. I do not propose to resurrect that here, I mention it to emphasise that many feel the terms used to be important, and that we should be moving away from any gender connotation in them. MWSD uses Ladies, Gents, Men, Women, Girls, Boys - all highly gendered. Is it time we changed these? If so, how? In theory with Callerlab it will be easier, but I suspect they would strongly resist such a change, since the "maleness" and "femaleness" of the roles (e.g. skirt work) is such a fundamental part of what MWSD is. Thoughts? (Apologies to those to whom this is all gibberish) Jeremy Child www.barndancecaller.net www.genderfreedance.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls

by Nick Cuccia via Callers

On 09/27/2016 11:35 PM, Jeremy Child via Callers wrote: > Thanks Donna. > How do the dancers know who's dancing boy and who girl? Sometimes > they need to, or do the callers avoid any calls requiring this > knowledge (e.g. boys trade from a wave)? > Jeremy The convention that I've encountered on the handful of occasions that I've danced with IAGSDC (International Association of Gay Square Dance Clubs) clubs in California, Oregon, and Nevada, and at the IAGSDC Convention in San Francisco a couple of years ago, is for the person dancing that particular role to announce "boy!" or "girl!" when doing a gender-identified call. It, and other examples of gay square "fluff", can be found at: <http://www.rosetownramblers.com/Documents/How_To_Fluff.pdf> But going back to your original question about using non-gendered language for MWSD... IAGSDC has an interesting writeup on its use of "boys" and "girls", including some experiments in terms of using alternate nomenclature and physical signifiers that have been done over the years. It's worth a read, and makes some reference to some of the experiments in eliminating gender identifiers in the contra, ECD, and SCD communities. <http://www.iagsdchistory.org/historywiki/index.php?title=Gender_Roles> --Nick

8 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls

by Donna Hunt via Callers

Here in Philadelphia the MSW group (Independence Squares) is an LGBT and straight group and we dance to the calls of girl/boy and are free to dance whichever role we wish without any identifying "sashes". Our callers are fantastic at remembering who the couples/boys/girls are during any square. Donna Hunt -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Child via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Callers <Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> Sent: Tue, Sep 27, 2016 2:47 pm Subject: [Callers] Boys and Girls Hi This is for the MWSD callers amongst you. There has been much discussion on this group about the terms used for the two roles in contra dance. I do not propose to resurrect that here, I mention it to emphasise that many feel the terms used to be important, and that we should be moving away from any gender connotation in them. MWSD uses Ladies, Gents, Men, Women, Girls, Boys - all highly gendered. Is it time we changed these? If so, how? In theory with Callerlab it will be easier, but I suspect they would strongly resist such a change, since the "maleness" and "femaleness" of the roles (e.g. skirt work) is such a fundamental part of what MWSD is. Thoughts? (Apologies to those to whom this is all gibberish) Jeremy Child www.barndancecaller.net www.genderfreedance.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

8 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls

by Jeremy Child via Callers

Thanks Rich. Agreed, in the MSWD Community the terms are generally not a problem, but in the same way that in the contra dance community they weren't a problem 20 years ago. What is a problem is that whilst women can dance the boys role, for men to dance the girls role is frowned upon unless the alternative is not enough for a square. I like dancing the girls role as well as the boys, but rarely get to do so. I say it's a problem - but only I seem to see it as one. Everyone else is too busy tutting at me for donning a pink sash and dancing lady. Rather reminiscent of what Contra was like not so many years ago. In the UK we rarely see role-swapping in MWSD. Men hardly ever dance as girls, and women who dance as boys usually do so exclusively. There is little true swapping, whereby a person might dance girl one time and boy the next. It IS generational, but also one of the reasons MWSD is struggling to survive. Change must come if MWSD is to continue, and if we leave it too late, then, well, it will be too late. There will be no community left to carry on the dancing. For all the reasons mentioned, change will be hard, so we need to start sooner rather than later. I also believe the gender norms contribute to the current inability of most MWSD dancer to do moves from anything other than normal positions - something Callerlab *is* concerned about. Perhaps I should lobby Callerlab! Jeremy www.genderfreedance.net On 27 September 2016 at 15:44, Rich Sbardella <richsbardella(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Jeremy, > > Perhaps this is a partially generational concern. > > In the MWSD community today, there is much role swapping among dancers. > Most often ladies are dancing the gents' role. The terms boys and girls, > are roles much like ladies and gents in the contra scene. Although I call > fewer MWSD events these days, in 25 years have never encountered > opposition, or even concern about these terms at a MWSD event. Many out > dated gender specific terms are used in the activity as well, for example, > lads and lassies, and ruffles and beaus. All these terms are part of their > dance "tradition". > > The MWSD community is generally much older, and does not have problems > with these traditional dance terms. As noted the terms are often selected > to fit within the rhythm and rhyme of patter. As a caller who calls to > both MWSD and contra communities, I am trying very hard to eliminate boys > and girls, and it is very hard. It is like speaking a new language > language, and having no time to think about what comes next. It all > happens so fast. > > As most of the MWSD community ages out, perhaps gender terms will become a > concern, but I do not see that happening any time soon. > > Rich Sbardella > Stafford, CT > > > > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> I imagine that the conversation must be much more complex in MWSD given >> the tradition of patter. As I understand it, oftentimes the decision of >> which term to label each role is determined by what might best rhyme with >> the following call, or by how many syllables you have time to say. >> >> While it's probably a much more ambitious endeavor -- and one which I'm >> sure as a contra dance caller I have very little grasp of -- I would say >> that many MWSD communities are ready to handle a role-term change, but that >> it would take exceedingly creative and experienced callers within that >> tradition to help determine what those might look like. >> >> Good luck! >> Angela >> >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 7:19 PM, Jeremy Child via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> This is for the MWSD callers amongst you. >>> >>> There has been much discussion on this group about the terms used for >>> the two roles in contra dance. I do not propose to resurrect that here, I >>> mention it to emphasise that many feel the terms used to be important, and >>> that we should be moving away from any gender connotation in them. >>> >>> MWSD uses Ladies, Gents, Men, Women, Girls, Boys - all highly gendered. >>> Is it time we changed these? If so, how? In theory with Callerlab it will >>> be easier, but I suspect they would strongly resist such a change, since >>> the "maleness" and "femaleness" of the roles (e.g. skirt work) is such a >>> fundamental part of what MWSD is. >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> (Apologies to those to whom this is all gibberish) >>> >>> Jeremy Child >>> www.barndancecaller.net >>> www.genderfreedance.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >

8 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Boys and Girls

by Rich Sbardella via Callers

Jeremy, Perhaps this is a partially generational concern. In the MWSD community today, there is much role swapping among dancers. Most often ladies are dancing the gents' role. The terms boys and girls, are roles much like ladies and gents in the contra scene. Although I call fewer MWSD events these days, in 25 years have never encountered opposition, or even concern about these terms at a MWSD event. Many out dated gender specific terms are used in the activity as well, for example, lads and lassies, and ruffles and beaus. All these terms are part of their dance "tradition". The MWSD community is generally much older, and does not have problems with these traditional dance terms. As noted the terms are often selected to fit within the rhythm and rhyme of patter. As a caller who calls to both MWSD and contra communities, I am trying very hard to eliminate boys and girls, and it is very hard. It is like speaking a new language language, and having no time to think about what comes next. It all happens so fast. As most of the MWSD community ages out, perhaps gender terms will become a concern, but I do not see that happening any time soon. Rich Sbardella Stafford, CT On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I imagine that the conversation must be much more complex in MWSD given > the tradition of patter. As I understand it, oftentimes the decision of > which term to label each role is determined by what might best rhyme with > the following call, or by how many syllables you have time to say. > > While it's probably a much more ambitious endeavor -- and one which I'm > sure as a contra dance caller I have very little grasp of -- I would say > that many MWSD communities are ready to handle a role-term change, but that > it would take exceedingly creative and experienced callers within that > tradition to help determine what those might look like. > > Good luck! > Angela > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 7:19 PM, Jeremy Child via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> This is for the MWSD callers amongst you. >> >> There has been much discussion on this group about the terms used for the >> two roles in contra dance. I do not propose to resurrect that here, I >> mention it to emphasise that many feel the terms used to be important, and >> that we should be moving away from any gender connotation in them. >> >> MWSD uses Ladies, Gents, Men, Women, Girls, Boys - all highly gendered. >> Is it time we changed these? If so, how? In theory with Callerlab it will >> be easier, but I suspect they would strongly resist such a change, since >> the "maleness" and "femaleness" of the roles (e.g. skirt work) is such a >> fundamental part of what MWSD is. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> (Apologies to those to whom this is all gibberish) >> >> Jeremy Child >> www.barndancecaller.net >> www.genderfreedance.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

8 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Yet another "Anyone seen this dance?"

by Winston, Alan P. via Callers

The Barraclough and Goldman experiences with the dance already have belied my suspicion, but what I was thinking was that the extremely common use of "circle left 3/4 and swing on the side" was going to interfere with "Circle left all the way and swing on the side", and that we might see a failure mode of going three places and swinging partner there. Reality has already proven me wrong. -- A;an On 9/26/2016 5:38 PM, Yoyo Zhou wrote: > On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Alan Winston via Callers > <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > > If you call it tonight, I suspect some dancers will have some > trouble with the circle left all the way around the second and > subsequent times through. > > But let us know how it goes! > > I think circle left all the way around (rather than 3/4) is not > inherently difficult for contra dancers. > > Circle lefts that are hard: > > - Circle left 1/2. It's so easy to just keep circling. > > - Ending with gents ahead of ladies on the side. (e.g. N swing; *then* > circle left 1) > This is because almost all of our circles end with ladies ahead of > gents on the side (to set up for a swing, or a pass thru/CA twirl > progression), so we're very used to ending our circle lefts with > ladies in 1st corner and gents in 2nd corner places. > > Yoyo Zhou >

8 years, 2 months

[Callers] Yet another "Anyone seen this dance?"

by Ric Goldman - Letsdance via Callers

Hi folks, I was thinking about dances for tonites gig and this sequence came together in my heard. I figure someone mustve come up with it before me. Anyone recognize it? A1 Circle L 1x Nbr swing, end facing down A2 Down hall, turn alone Come back, bend line B1 Balance ring, petronella Ptnr swing B2 Circle L ¾ Balance ring, California Twirl Thanx, Ric Goldman

8 years, 2 months

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Import1 September 2016