[Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

Sat May 18 11:28:35 PDT 2019

Thank you, Andrea, for injecting some controversy. I want to understand
better the motivation of those who push the flat-hand allemande, which is
an awful thing in my view. I'm fully in support of Erik's position on a
safe Allemande. However, when I've attempted to make these points in some
circles, I have been met with instant scorn and denial. If I try again,
I'll begin with "why do you do that?" to see if it opens up the
conversation.

In my observation, there are two points where the W-form Allemande runs
afoul of comfort and safety: 1) one of the partners squeezes tightly and
the resulting pressure on the thumb is painful. There should be no "grip",
only an interlocking of curled hands. And 2) the elbows need to stay down.
This can be an issue when one partner is much taller than the other.

I don't believe I've ever seen a teaching that emphasized a loose grip, and
I think only once or twice have I heard an instruction to keep the elbows
down. Kudos to you, Andrea, for emphasizing "the thumb itself is an
injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so leave it
loose".

Andrea, you have not defended the flat-hand Allemande, so I still don't
understand what those people are thinking. But, you have presented an
interesting alternative in the forearm Allemande.  I've used myself it on
occasion when encountering an insistent flat-hander. It's right up there
with Lisa Greenleaf's suggestion to meet a flat-hander with a fist in the
traditional Allemande position. That lets me protect my wrist and
encourages the flat-hander to curl their fingers.

Rich

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 12:21 PM Andrea Nettleton via Callers <
callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
> I’m going to add a controversial note.  I also loathe the many poor
> allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken
> wing, what have you.  As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande
> for arm turns.  Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I
> was like, wut???  But it’s a position which save everyone’s hands and
> wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the
> chicken wing almost impossible.  I started using it for dances with
> revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and
> necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection.  I was so pleased I
> began using them elsewhere.  People generally go along with it.  I have
> been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes.  I know
> it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put
> it out there.
>
> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande.  I demonstrate and
> emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base
> of the opposite’s thumb, flat wrist.  And I always add that the thumb
> itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so
> leave it loose.  Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to
> make a 2 person unit that turns on a post.  I’m sure everyone on this list
> has similar teaches.
> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now.
> I suspect it’s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm
> hold instead.
> My 2c,
> Andrea N
> Arlington VA
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <
> callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and
> the like.
>
>
>
> I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion
> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly
> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of
> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus
> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called,
> “If Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?”
>
>
>
> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand—and I think all of us
> should remove that word, “grip” from our caller’s vocabulary…
>
>
>
> But the most important thing I discussed is:
>
>    - Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight
>    - Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
>    - Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with
>    curved fingers and a straight wrist.
>
>
>
> Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and
> flat palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable.
> Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that
> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite
> uncomfortable.
>
>
>
> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip,
> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand
> connections.
>
>
>
> ~Erik Hoffman,
>
>    Oakland, CA
>
>
>
> *From:* Callers <callers-bounces at lists.sharedweight.net> *On Behalf Of *John
> Sweeney via Callers
> *Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
> *To:* 'Caller's discussion list' <callers at sharedweight.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Name that Dance
>
>
>
> Hi Rich,
>
>               I would just call it a “Big Set Mixer”.  It is a slight
> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual.  Callers just make up
> a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.
>
>
>
>               While it is a good example of all ages having fun together,
> I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to
> do better hand/arm turns and swings :-)
>
>
>
>             Happy dancing,
>
>                    John
>
>
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   john at modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
> 940 574
>
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music
> Ceilidhs
>
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>
>
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>
>
>
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