<div dir="ltr">Thank you, Andrea, for injecting some controversy. I want to understand better the motivation of those who push the flat-hand allemande, which is an awful thing in my view. I'm fully in support of Erik's position on a safe Allemande. However, when I've attempted to make these points in some circles, I have been met with instant scorn and denial. If I try again, I'll begin with "why do you do that?" to see if it opens up the conversation.<div><br></div><div>In my observation, there are two points where the W-form Allemande runs afoul of comfort and safety: 1) one of the partners squeezes tightly and the resulting pressure on the thumb is painful. There should be no "grip", only an interlocking of curled hands. And 2) the elbows need to stay down. This can be an issue when one partner is much taller than the other. </div><div><br></div><div>I don't believe I've ever seen a teaching that emphasized a loose grip, and I think only once or twice have I heard an instruction to keep the elbows down. Kudos to you, Andrea, for emphasizing "the thumb itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so leave it loose".</div><div><br></div><div>Andrea, you have not defended the flat-hand Allemande, so I still don't understand what those people are thinking. But, you have presented an interesting alternative in the forearm Allemande. I've used myself it on occasion when encountering an insistent flat-hander. It's right up there with Lisa Greenleaf's suggestion to meet a flat-hander with a fist in the traditional Allemande position. That lets me protect my wrist and encourages the flat-hander to curl their fingers.</div><div><br></div><div>Rich</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 12:21 PM Andrea Nettleton via Callers <<a href="mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net">callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Hi all,<div>I’m going to add a controversial note. I also loathe the many poor allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken wing, what have you. As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande for arm turns. Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I was like, wut??? But it’s a position which save everyone’s hands and wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the chicken wing almost impossible. I started using it for dances with revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection. I was so pleased I began using them elsewhere. People generally go along with it. I have been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes. I know it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put it out there.</div><div><br></div><div>Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande. I demonstrate and emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base of the opposite’s thumb, flat wrist. And I always add that the thumb itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so leave it loose. Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to make a 2 person unit that turns on a post. I’m sure everyone on this list has similar teaches. </div><div>If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now. I suspect it’s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm hold instead.</div><div>My 2c,</div><div>Andrea N</div><div>Arlington VA<br><br><div id="gmail-m_1455565010092542550AppleMailSignature" dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br>On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <<a href="mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net" target="_blank">callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail-m_1455565010092542550WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black">John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and the like.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black">I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly interlocking
thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, “If Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black">I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand—and I think all of us should remove that word, “grip” from our caller’s vocabulary…
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black">But the most important thing I discussed is:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m_1455565010092542550MsoListParagraph" style="color:black;margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif">Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="gmail-m_1455565010092542550MsoListParagraph" style="color:black;margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif">Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="gmail-m_1455565010092542550MsoListParagraph" style="color:black;margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif">Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved fingers and a straight wrist.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black">Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and flat palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable. Not as
bad as when someone draws the others hand into that almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite uncomfortable.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black">Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand connections.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black">~Erik Hoffman,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black"> Oakland, CA<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Callers <<a href="mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net" target="_blank">callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Sweeney via Callers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Caller's discussion list' <<a href="mailto:callers@sharedweight.net" target="_blank">callers@sharedweight.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Callers] Name that Dance<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Hi Rich,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> I would just call it a “Big Set Mixer”. It is a slight variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual. Callers just make up a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to do better hand/arm turns and swings :-)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> Happy dancing,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> John
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">John Sweeney, Dancer, England <a href="mailto:john@modernjive.com" target="_blank">john@modernjive.com</a> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><a href="http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html" target="_blank">http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html</a> for Live Music Ceilidhs
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.contrafusion.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.contrafusion.co.uk</a> for Dancing in Kent</span><span lang="EN-GB">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.modernjive.com" target="_blank">http://www.modernjive.com</a> for Modern Jive DVDs<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>List Name: Callers mailing list</span><br><span>List Address: <a href="mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net" target="_blank">Callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a></span><br><span>Archives: <a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
List Name: Callers mailing list<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net" target="_blank">Callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a><br>
Archives: <a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>