[Callers] Ending the discussion, was Re: Thoughts on ethnicity, was That g word

Fri Jan 22 19:23:09 PST 2016

So, it has occurred to me that I, myself, have left some groups because
this discussion has gotten me very worked up, and here I am again,
commenting on it.  I apologize, I know I have been um ... out of sorts ...
recently and have reasons that I suppose I should not share publicly.
Anyway, unless someone specifically wants a reply from me, I will no longer
post on the subject to save my health.

Ja et

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Janet Bertog via Callers <
callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Prelude:  This post is tangential to the gypsy discussion and likely
> controversial.  If you are not interested, delete now.  Moderators, if you
> feel it is not an appropriate topic for this list tell me and I will cease
> any future posts on the matter.
>
> So, let's pretend for a moment that gypsy has been proven to originate
> from the term used to refer to the Roma (we all know that I do not believe
> this), or that it doesn't matter what it's origin is, the fact that it does
> have one meaning that refers to the Roma people is all that matters (we all
> know that I also do not believe this).  Let us also pretend for a minute
> that it doesn't matter that in American English the term has come to mean a
> free-spirited traveler.  We are going to pretend that gypsy only is a
> racial slur against Romani.
>
> First I will point out that Romani (Roma, I have seen both used, not sure
> which is "most correct"), and Romani advocates, who feel that the word
> Gypsy is a slur, always capitalize the word to enforce that it is a
> reference to the ethnicity.  So, first of all, if it not capitalized, does
> that not mean that it does not refer to the ethnicity (I asked Carol this,
> she did not respond).  But that is not really what this post is about.
>
> So, this discussion about removing gypsy from our dance lexicon is due to
> the fact that the Roma are holding on to their heritage and the use of the
> word as a slur against them (yes, I recognize that in some places, the Roma
> are still persecuted today).  When I have asked Roma or Romani advocates
> about the word, the response I usually get is something along the lines of
> "well, what if the move was called the jew instead"?  Well, I'm not jew, so
> I don't really relate to that either.  In fact, I one of the least racially
> persecuted groups in existence it would seem, although I am female and
> blond.  But, I digress.  Among the discussions, I have been informed that
> Gypsy refers to the ethnicity, not the lifestyle and that the practice of
> the Romani people to travel was forced upon them.  However, I have read
> that, in fact, many of the persecutions were just the opposite - forcing
> them to settle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Persecutions).
>
>
> Conversely, the ethnic term can be used as a slur.  For example:
>
> jew - someone who is stingy
> polish - a stupid person
>
> So, every single person in North America is an immigrant (yes, even the
> "Native Americans, although much earlier than others).  Every single
> person's ancestor who moved to America came to America for a reason.  Some
> were forced (such as slaves) but many came here to escape what they were
> leaving behind and to hopefully provide a better life for their families
> and themselves.  So, why is it then that so many racial groups who move to
> America to escape their history, choose to also hold on to their history?
> This is not just Roma, and it is, oddly enough, not all races.  Very few
> Germans or English in America refer to themselves as Germans or English (in
> Cincinnati we have an Oktoberfest every year, owing to the large number of
> people of German descent, but for 360 days of the year, these people are
> American).  If these people moved to America, why are they not just
> Americans?  Why are they holding on to an ethnic past?  When I ask a Roma
> why they use the word Gypsy to refer to themselves, the most common answer
> I get is "people know the word Gypsy, but do not know what a Roma is".  So,
> if people do not even know what a Roma is, how can they be persecuting
> them?  If people who move to America want to be American, why do they hold
> on to their ethnicity and continue to be offended by words that refer to
> that ethnicity (this is a genuine question, I cannot at all relate to this
> and so it makes no sense to me).  This is not just the Roma, any group of
> people who come to America and yet hold on to their ethnic traditions do
> not make a lot of sense to me, especially if they are 2nd,  3rd, 4th or
> more generation Americans who have never even been to the place of origin
> for their ethnicity.
>
> According to the US Census, for the first time in 2000 a significant
> number of people responded to the question about ancestry by stating that
> they were American jumped from 12.4 million in 1990 to 20.2 million in 2000
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ethnicity).  In the most recent
> census report on the census page (
> http://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?pid=ACS_14_5YR_B04004&prodType=table)
> the top groups of identified ancestry in the United States was:
>
> American 20 million
> German 15 million (slurs include boche due to the stereotype of germans
> being hard-headed, Fritz, Huns meaning savage and ruthless, Jerry, Kraut
> from saurkraut, squarehead from the stereotype of the shape of their heads)
> English 9 million (slurs include Gringo, Pom, Pommie, etc)
> Irish 9 million (bog irish refrerring to a low class Irish, Dogan possibly
> from Dugan - an Irish surname, Mick, Paddy - which has been embraced by
> Irish even though it was meant to be derogatory, Pikey - an irish travel
> like gypsy, tinker - an irish traveler like a gypsy, wigger - also used to
> refer to people who might be called "white trash" or "rednecks")
> Italian 7 million (slurs include dago, eyetie, greaseball, Guido - an
> American Italian, Guinea - referring to the color of their skin, Swamp
> Guinea)
> European 3 million
> Polish 3 million (slurs include Polak, and in fact referring to someone as
> polish is often a slur in itself)
> Subsaharan African 2.4 million (lots, most of you know)
> West Indian 2 million (this is a lot of different nations, so it is hard
> to look up)
> Scottish 1.7 million (jock - most of us do not consider jocks derogatory,
> Sawny or Sandy, Teuchter, and Tinker is also used in Scotland)
> Norwegian 1.5 million (surprisingly none were listed)
> Scotch-Irish 1.4 million (this is a mixed ancestry, so slurs of both
> Scottish and Irish origin could refer to them)
> Dutch 1 million (cheesehead, frog - as a stereotype of being marsh
> dwellers, Yankee originally referred to Dutch settlers in America,
> Russian 1 million (katsap, Moskal, russian pig)
> Swedish almost 1 million
> (reference for ethnic slurs:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs).  It is true that
> most of these words are not used in the English language, but who is going
> to stop have kraut on their sausage because it is an ethnic slur?)
>
> Romani are not reported,
> likely grouped as "other", but other sources indicate there are
> approximately 1 million Romani in America today.  I provide this list to
> point out that, with one exception, almost no one on this list is offended
> by people calling them by their ethnicity, or terms referring to their
> ethnicity and, in fact, more and more people are leaving their ancestry in
> the past and accepting that they are just American.
>
> So, why should Roma people be allowed to claim the word gypsy and declare
> it a slur against them, when it is very clear that, especially in America,
> it is rarely intended to be a slur, since most people just think Roma are
> Americans and do not use the word to refer to the Roma people?
>
> And in regards to "how would you feel if ...", if a move was called a
> blond because you walked around in a silly, disoriented fashion, I would
> laugh and wonder why we have such a chaotic dance move in contra dance - oh
> right, those are mixers.  If I ever called mixers, I would start saying
> "blond with your partner around the room and find another couple", but I
> don't, because I hate mixers).
>
> Janet
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Lindsay Morris via Callers <
> callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm about to leave this list because I'm so appalled at the amount of
>> time spent on this discussion. So many smart, good people: surely we all
>> have something better to do?
>>
>>
>> On Friday, January 22, 2016, via Callers <callers at lists.sharedweight.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Honestly, it will be next December when I sing Christmas carols again :-)
>>>
>>> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:34, Aahz Maruch via Callers <
>>> callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016, via Callers wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I disagree. If it is fair to condemn a word despite widespread
>>> >> ignorance of its racist etymology (such as the very real problem
>>> >> with the verb "gyp"), then the inverse must be true: it is fair to
>>> >> exonerate a word despite widespread ignorance of its non-racist
>>> >> etymology (e.g., niggardly). That a word falsely gets attributed to
>>> >> a category in which it doesn't belong is irrelevant. If two separate
>>> >> meanings/derivations converge to an identically spelled modern word,
>>> >> I don't believe the innocent word (when used in its original context)
>>> >> deserves to be written off. Let us truly abide by what you claim to
>>> >> support: its current use *is* relevant.
>>> >
>>> > Let me know the next time you use "gay" to mean something roughly
>>> similar
>>> > to "happy" or "joyful", but for which there is no direct substitute.
>>> > Despite my support for queer rights (given that two of my partners are
>>> > bisexual, among other reasons), that's the one real loss I still feel.
>>> > --
>>> > Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
>>> http://rule6.info/
>>> >                      <*>           <*>           <*>
>>> > Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Callers mailing list
>>> > Callers at lists.sharedweight.net
>>> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Callers mailing list
>>> Callers at lists.sharedweight.net
>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------
>> Lindsay Morris
>> CEO, TSMworks
>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
>> lindsay at tsmworks.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers at lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers at lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20160122/bcde2490/attachment.htm>