[Callers] Problem dancers / Crying Wolf

Thu Sep 10 13:12:48 PDT 2015

Zhou,

On the committing violence front--I once had a sociology professor who used
the word "violence" to describe just about everything (i.e., graffiti was
violence, a company persistently not fixing warrantied products was
violence, genocide was violence).  He clearly needed a thesaurus, but it
was a thought-provoking perspective and pointed out that violence is not
specifically limited to physical acts--emotional and verbal acts can also
inflict real damage.

When I was a kid there was a mother in my scout troop who leveled
accusations of sexual harassment against two of the leaders and demanded
financial compensation; both of them were removed from their positions,
divorced by their wives, and one paid her an out-of-court settlement while
the other was forced to leave his job after she told his employer.  When
she started to go after a third leader, someone checked with her prior
troop; they discovered it was a pattern, and that she was living off of a
prior settlement.  "Committing violence" seems like what she did to the
families involved..

I'm not saying that Lindsay's case is the same--but it has similar
elements, and dance group policies generally prohibit violence.  We usually
mean the physical kind, but when that word is coming to mind there's
probably a reason.  If the lady in question is doing harm to other members
of the community, I'd want to be very careful about handling the matter.

Neal Schlein

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Lindsay Morris via Callers <
callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Great point, thanks Lisa.
>
>
> On Thursday, September 10, 2015, Lisa Greenleaf via Callers <
> callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone-
>>
>> I am cringing every time I read the word victim.  VIctim implies
>> powerlessness, so why not use the word dancer and encourage
>> self-empowerment?
>>
>> Sometimes dancers approach me because I am an official organizer, and
>> other times friends of the person approach me because they know I might be
>> able to help. My first question around complaints is always, “Did you talk
>> with the person whose behavior bothered you?” And then I model an “I”
>> statement for them: “I don’t like that,” “I don’t feel comfortable dancing
>> with you because I don’t like to be twirled,” etc.
>>
>> Of course, most people find it difficult to talk directly to the person
>> disturbing them, but it’s still worth encouraging, especially if you show
>> them how to do it.  You are teaching them a real-world skill that they can
>> use outside of the dance.
>>
>> When a dancer approaches me with a complaint, I don’t see them as a
>> victim who needs rescuing.   For one thing, I don’t know the real situation
>> until I have heard both sides of the story. Yes, the situation may expand
>> to a larger problem, but even then I don’t change “dancer” (or more
>> specifically, the name of the person) to “victim.”
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 9, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers <
>> callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Taking you at face value: if you have a systemic problem, you need a
>> > policy. If you have a problem with one person, you need to come to
>> > terms with that person. I'm not sure if it's just the board, or if
>> > other dancers also have issues with her. But if you seek mediation,
>> > take notes on your interactions so you have evidence to back yourself
>> > up.
>> >
>> >
>> > Now, I think the last thing you need is a policy requiring victims to
>> > speak up. It's counterproductive to making a safe dance space.  (Let's
>> > discuss that on the other thread.)
>> >
>> > Let's say I'm new to your dance and I have a bad experience with
>> > someone. What do I do? I might complain about it to my friends who
>> > convinced me to come. I might just avoid that person. I might just go
>> > home dissatisfied. One of the last things I might do is complain to
>> > the management (and I might view that woman as an extension thereof),
>> > because who knows if they'll just shrug it off and not take me
>> > seriously?
>> >
>> >
>> > Also, you wrote, "it seems to me that she's committing violence." No,
>> > I disagree. This totally cheapens the meaning of "violence". What
>> > words do you use for when punches are actually thrown? (It's happened
>> > at a dance here.)
>> >
>> > Yoyo Zhou
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
>> > <callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >> Maybe. Maybe not. My point was that we should be very, very careful
>> about
>> >> making a definitive statement about something being "just an
>> accusation",
>> >> especially when in your example, there was a second problem - even if
>> it was
>> >> a year earlier.
>> >>
>> >> On Sep 9, 2015 10:39 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
>> >> <callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Appreciate that.  Don't think the "where there's smoke there's fire"
>> issue
>> >>> applies here, though.  It would if there were several different women
>> >>> complaining about one man...
>> >>>
>> >>> --------------------
>> >>> Lindsay Morris
>> >>> CEO, TSMworks
>> >>> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
>> >>> lindsay at tsmworks.com
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <contraron at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Lindsay,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I realize this is a tricky topic, so apologies in advance if my
>> brevity
>> >>>> comes off as bruskness.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> These two suggestions work for Amherst Contra.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As a proxy complaint comes in, a board member would seek out the
>> source.
>> >>>> Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a high level of ensuring
>> that we ask
>> >>>> open-ended questions, and not leading questions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> We also wear board member buttons at dances and make regular
>> >>>> announcements about us being available for any reason. Usually 4-7
>> members
>> >>>> of our board attend any dance.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You might speak privately to Will Loving, our lead organizer, if
>> you're
>> >>>> interested in more specifics.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I would also caution about making such definitive statements as
>> "just an
>> >>>> accusation". In my experience, where there's smoke, there's fire.
>> For every
>> >>>> accusation, there's five people who are too uncomfortable to speak
>> up.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That said, I have seen the success of proactive addressing of
>> issues. The
>> >>>> biggest benefit is simple:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Address it early when it's small, and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a
>> >>>> simple misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a clear boundary
>> drawn. But
>> >>>> wait until there's a pile of complaints, and you've already lost
>> dancers and
>> >>>> the resolution will need to be more severe for the offender.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Best regards,
>> >>>> Ron Blechner
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay Morris via Callers"
>> >>>> <callers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Chris Weiler's Positive Solutions on dealing with problem dancers,
>> and
>> >>>>> the CDU Policy are thoughtful and useful documents.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> We have a different problem here.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> One woman often complains to board members about men she sees as
>> >>>>> creepers or sexual predators. She reports their misbehavior on
>> behalf of
>> >>>>> their victims. The victims don't initiate these reports.*
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Many others don't see these men as creepy or inappropriate.
>> Recently
>> >>>>> one of the "victims" clarified that her discomfort with the man was
>> a year
>> >>>>> ago and she'd long ago dealt with it to her satisfaction.  The man
>> in
>> >>>>> question had heard only rumors that some nameless woman was unhappy
>> about
>> >>>>> some nameless thing he'd done.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This woman also publicly asked that young women who feel harassed
>> should
>> >>>>> talk to her about it.  We feel that's the Board's job, not hers.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It seems that this woman is fishing for - or even inventing -
>> >>>>> "naughty-dancer" problems.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> When a married man gets accused of being a sexual predator, his
>> wife has
>> >>>>> to wonder if it's true. This adds to any marital tensions they may
>> already
>> >>>>> have.  So, while this woman is not actually punching anybody in the
>> face, it
>> >>>>> seems to me that she's committing violence.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> How should we handle this?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think we need a "No proxy complaints" policy - i.e., the victim
>> has to
>> >>>>> speak up (and then our process will usually fix simple
>> miscommunication
>> >>>>> issues).
>> >>>>> We need to clearly identify board members, so genuine victims know
>> who
>> >>>>> to talk to.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> But does anybody have other ideas about preventing one person's
>> issues
>> >>>>> from  poisoning the atmosphere of a mostly friendly dance?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ____
>> >>>>> * I know, victims often have a hard time stepping up and
>> complaining, so
>> >>>>> advocacy may be a good thing.  But that's a different discussion.
>> In these
>> >>>>> situations, there's no victim; there's no predator; there's just an
>> >>>>> accusation with little to back it up.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>>> Callers at lists.sharedweight.net
>> >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
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>> >>
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>>
>> Lisa
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> --------------------
> Lindsay Morris
> CEO, TSMworks
> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
> lindsay at tsmworks.com
>
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